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'No Atheists in a Foxhole' Fallacy
    #9582503 -

Is there some truth to this observation? Yes.

As an atheist have I ever asked for divine help? Yes.

So where is the fallacy? It is quite simple really. I was born and raised a Catholic, went to Catholic schools and was indocrinated until I was 18. This is powerful brainwashing stuff. Even after my change of view it is not possible to erase such programming. I am near certain that ALL atheists in foxholes also had a large exposure to religious and cultural pressures.

I doubt that it would ever occur to one not exposed (if that is possible in today's world) to the idea of a personal and responsive God to even consider prayer. As cultural contamination is so wide-spread, my hypothesis may not be able to be tested.


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Re: 'No Atheists in a Foxhole' Fallacy [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9582515 -

If god gives you lemons, find a new god.

I just pray to all(ah)(ahahah)(hahahaha).

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Re: 'No Atheists in a Foxhole' Fallacy [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9583108 -

Good post, OC!

I wouldn't call the plea for divine help a convincing argument for societal brainwashing, though.  Given the possibility of a lifeline (imaginary though it may be), almost anyone would seize at it regardless if they feel some mighty weight pressing on them to believe.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: 'No Atheists in a Foxhole' Fallacy [Re: deCypher]
    #9583147 -

Let's say you were part of a remote Native tribe that had no belief in any sort of god nor any exposure to outside influences. You are in a battle and are mortally wounded. I submit that the sudden thought of calling out to an imaginary and powerful being for aid would not even occur to you.


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Re: 'No Atheists in a Foxhole' Fallacy [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9583153 -

You'd still call out for aid on the off-chance that someone/some thing would hear you.  Magical thinking is a usual part of a person's psychological development, no?


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: 'No Atheists in a Foxhole' Fallacy [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9583169 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
I submit that the sudden thought of calling out to an imaginary and powerful being for aid would not even occur to you.


They might not use the "G" word, but they might still make the empty plea: "Please help me!" even if they knew no one was around.


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Re: 'No Atheists in a Foxhole' Fallacy [Re: Silversoul]
    #9583226 -

His plea would most likely be to his compadres.

My BAC ex-gf once asked me if I believed in God. I told her I could not answer as there was no clear defintion of the word. Naturally, she got angry. Here is my point: what if all of western society believed god was a mechanical six-winged dragon that lived on Neptune. Would a non-indoctrinated person ever conceive of praying to such a being? Of course not!


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Re: 'No Atheists in a Foxhole' Fallacy [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9583247 -

Dude, a mechanical six-winged dragon is significantly more badass than an intangible Creator.  Even I'd pray to it.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: 'No Atheists in a Foxhole' Fallacy [Re: deCypher]
    #9583266 -

And whenever he appeared, he would be accompanied by a blaring Metallica guitar riff and busty babes in black leather?


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Re: 'No Atheists in a Foxhole' Fallacy [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9583273 -

:headbanger:

Do priests of this religion get one-on-one time with the busty babes?


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: 'No Atheists in a Foxhole' Fallacy [Re: deCypher]
    #9583296 -

Celibacy is for wussies.


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Re: 'No Atheists in a Foxhole' Fallacy [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9583424 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
Here is my point: what if all of western society believed god was a mechanical six-winged dragon that lived on Neptune. Would a non-indoctrinated person ever conceive of praying to such a being? Of course not!


It is quite telling that no society has come up with such a god.  What is even more telling is cultures around the world have all come up with rather similar religious concepts.  What I find really interesting is the unlikelihood of the unbelieving tribe you mention in the beginning.  The universality of faith suggests that non-belief is not the default stance of humanity.  Scientists have recognized this for quite some time, and rather than simply assume they are all brainwashed by culture, some have sought out an elusive "God gene."  Whatever its cause, faith is a natural phenomenon, not merely a culturally programmed one.


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Re: 'No Atheists in a Foxhole' Fallacy [Re: Silversoul]
    #9583434 -

Quote:
Silversoul said: The universality of faith suggests that non-belief is not the default stance of humanity.


This is a limited perspective coming after thousands upon thousands of years of held religious beliefs.

At what point did nontheistic apes become theistic men?


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: 'No Atheists in a Foxhole' Fallacy [Re: deCypher]
    #9583440 -

deCypher said:
At what point did nontheistic apes become theistic men?


Presumably around the point that they developed abstract thought.


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Re: 'No Atheists in a Foxhole' Fallacy [Re: Silversoul]
    #9583478 -

Quote:
What is even more telling is cultures around the world have all come up with rather similar religious concepts.


Not even close. I will challenge your premise with a heavy wager.


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Re: 'No Atheists in a Foxhole' Fallacy [Re: Silversoul]
    #9583497 -

I think faith comes from cultural brainwashing.

Spirituality, though, is an inherent trait.

When you think about it, no religion is just as much a theology as a religion. You're just putting all of your faith in your senses rather than "God".

Presumably, we're all aware of the concept of hallucinations. How can we really put that much faith in our senses???


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Re: 'No Atheists in a Foxhole' Fallacy [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9583869 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
What is even more telling is cultures around the world have all come up with rather similar religious concepts.


Not even close. I will challenge your premise with a heavy wager.


If I'm to agree to such a wager, we will have to agree on what constitutes "similarity."  I must also inform you that I am rather poor right now, and thus cannot put up a very big counter-wager.


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Re: 'No Atheists in a Foxhole' Fallacy [Re: Silversoul]
    #9583951 -

If I can find six very different Creation stories, six different Gods and six different after-life scenarios would that count?

I am not sure about you, but as an American I am mostly exposed to:

1. Christianity (a zillion forms)
2. Judaism
3. Islam

which appear similar as they have some of the same roots. Then you look into Buddhism (no God - no afterlife), Hinduism (many Gods - many lives) and then we can go into the more obscure native religions that have even less in common if possible.


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Re: 'No Atheists in a Foxhole' Fallacy [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9583989 -

Religions may differ on certain beliefs, but the concepts remain the same.

Oh, and Buddhism is not no god - no afterlife. They believe in the concept but deny any personification of that concept. As far as afterlife goes, most schools of Buddhism believe in reincarnation and Nirvana as the ultimate goal. The only exception is Zen Buddhism, which is non-theistic (they say create your own God, one that makes sense to you)

You should check out some of Jung's work on the Collective Unconscious. Might sound like a load of bullshit to an atheist, but he does show how people from different cultures share certain religious beliefs, and are conditioned to deny them in favor of others as they get older.


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Re: 'No Atheists in a Foxhole' Fallacy [Re: Synesthetic]
    #9584051 -

Quote:
Religions may differ on certain beliefs, but the concepts remain the same.



Huh? Do you read what you write? A belief IS a concept.


Let me get this straight:

Zeus = Jesus = Isis = Zoroaster = Thor?

Killing infidels = loving your neighbor?

Eternal life in heaven = no afterlife = coming back as a donkey = 29 virgins?


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