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Offlinezouden
Neuroscientist
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Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 14 years, 5 months
Re: 'No Atheists in a Foxhole' Fallacy [Re: Synesthetic]
    #9585678 - 01/10/09 08:26 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Synesthetic said:
Get over yourself, man. Better yet, go take 7 dry grams of your favorite hallucinogen and compare the ideas of metaphysics and science in your brain.



What if you favourite hallucinogen is LSD? :sad:


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I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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InvisibledeCypher
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Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: 'No Atheists in a Foxhole' Fallacy [Re: zouden]
    #9585695 - 01/10/09 08:28 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

You heard the man.  Seven grams of lysergic acid, stat.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
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Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
Re: 'No Atheists in a Foxhole' Fallacy [Re: deCypher]
    #9585720 - 01/10/09 08:31 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I swear on a Bible that as soon as someone sends me 7 grams of Lucy I will ingest within 24 hours. Scouts honor. :yesnod:


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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
Spore Print Collector
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Registered: 05/25/08
Posts: 13,018
Loc: Registered: 6/04/02
Re: 'No Atheists in a Foxhole' Fallacy [Re: Silversoul]
    #9585875 - 01/10/09 08:53 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

Mr. Mushrooms said:
Religions have to have some similarity in order to be religions.  However, there are some pretty wide variations among them.  Some are preceptorial; others are not, some are credal; others are not, some are cosmological; others are not, some are theistic (poly or mono); others are not, some are revelatory; others are not.

Is the primary difference one of metaphysics?  Or do you have something else in mind?



Well, my premise was that every culture has developed religion, and these religions share certain common features.  They don't tend to have winged dragons from Neptune because they all work from the same template.  Perhaps I was being a bit overly simplistic.  What I see is an evolution of religion from animist tribal religions to more complex polytheistic concepts to monotheism, or in some cases a sort of nontheistic supernaturalism such as in Buddhism or Taoism.  My point is they all seem to build on the same starting template, and each development transcends and includes its predecessor.




I'd say the answer was a tad simplistic, however, yes, they all have the same starting point or template:  there is something other than the observable.  As to the evolution, certain texts would disagree.

Question:  what, in the nature of man, makes us given towards that which we cannot observe?  And please, if you don't mind, since this is a philosophy and spirituality forum, would you frame the answer from either spirituality or philosophy.  I don't have an answer per se, but I am curious about yours.  I've been reading about your experience and I'm intrigued.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
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Re: 'No Atheists in a Foxhole' Fallacy [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #9585934 - 01/10/09 09:02 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

And like Jeopardy, you must frame your answer in the form of a question...


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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Registered: 05/25/08
Posts: 13,018
Loc: Registered: 6/04/02
Re: 'No Atheists in a Foxhole' Fallacy [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9585981 - 01/10/09 09:13 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

:rofl2:  FUCK!

You KNOW I amuse easily.  Now I am owed a box of handywipes to clean off my monitor.

The point was that I am all too familiar with the default bullshit answers and what to hear his view.

Are we allowed to swear in here or is that a no-no? :twitchy:


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
Re: 'No Atheists in a Foxhole' Fallacy [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #9586012 - 01/10/09 09:17 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

They will take about two days Priority Mail to arrive.


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OfflineSynesthetic
Ratings go in journal.
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Registered: 12/11/08
Posts: 2,715
Loc: Tooele, UT
Last seen: 12 years, 10 months
Re: 'No Atheists in a Foxhole' Fallacy [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9586492 - 01/10/09 10:37 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

No personalisms.  Read the rules of this forum before posting. ~V

My physics professor said something great today.

"Ultimately, physics is the answer to everything. That's nice, because when humans are involved they mess everything up. Go ahead, take a psychology class. You'll end up with more questions than answers at the end."

Anything we observe is more of a test of the instrument used to observe it than the object or event itself.

Edited by Veritas (01/10/09 10:54 PM)

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OfflineJCoke
dream observer
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Registered: 02/17/04
Posts: 1,229
Loc: maryland Flag
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
Re: 'No Atheists in a Foxhole' Fallacy [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9592643 - 01/11/09 11:53 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Is there some truth to this observation? Yes.

As an atheist have I ever asked for divine help? Yes.

So where is the fallacy? It is quite simple really. I was born and raised a Catholic, went to Catholic schools and was indocrinated until I was 18. This is powerful brainwashing stuff. Even after my change of view it is not possible to erase such programming. I am near certain that ALL atheists in foxholes also had a large exposure to religious and cultural pressures.

I doubt that it would ever occur to one not exposed (if that is possible in today's world) to the idea of a personal and responsive God to even consider prayer. As cultural contamination is so wide-spread, my hypothesis may not be able to be tested.




the vice-versa of this is similar, christians in the world cause's the athiest to pray, and athiest cause's christians to doubt prayer, very productive.

lately i've been hearing the phrase "people don't find God, God finds people" or even "the bible is not stories of people finding or obtaining God, it's God finding and choosing people".

it's not mans prayer or knoweldge of the actual "God" that cause's him to action, it's his own free-will and grace that he does it.

that's from what I understand anyways.


--------------------
hello, your name is life on earth
------------------------------------

"I traveled a long way seeking God, but when I finally gave up and turned back, there He was, within me! O Lalli! Now why do you wander like a beggar? Make some effort, and He will grant you a vision of Himself in the form of bliss in your heart." -the saint of the Kashmir Shaivism tradition: Lalli.

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