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Re: morel cult thread [Re: Roger Fudd]
    #10293379 -

Roger Fudd said:
:crankey: Tell us! Grrrrrrrrrr. :grin:


Ok.


Well you know how people like Tom Volk and a lot of others are intent on declaring a symbiotic relationship between morels and trees?

Well what they aren't specific about is species. While there might be some that are symbiotic, there are those that are not symbiotic to a certain degree. I think Volk and the rest are confusing the associations that black morel species have with trees and generalizing it all intentionally.
However I believe that the yellow morels are independent to a certain degree. I noticed how yellow morels have an affinity for sugar maple
trees and there were no elms anywhere. Elms are not native to the area at least as far as I know. So the yellow morels have to rely on a source like sugar maple that holds a lot of nutrients. I found that the large convoluted blond morels are near the edge of the woods and in those areas there were very few saplings or young seedling trees; almost none and I do not know why. The ground or soil was visible to a
greater degree; meaning there wasn't much leaf cover, than the areas further into the woods.
These large blond morels were attached to the large sugar maple adult trees' root system. The spore-path for these large blond morels coincided with the direction that would blow further deeper into the woods and land exactly where the deliciosa sized yellow morels appear
and they are found among small saplings or seedling sugar maples that are there.
This I noticed even last year when there was a record amount. But I picked those big blonds last year and now this year there is a lesser number of deliciosas in the other spot.
So I figure there might be some truth to what Ower and Mills proclaimed by saying those species were the same thing. And the reason there is a slight difference between their appearances is because deliciosa can only get so much of a certain nutrient from a small sapling or seedling
that is stuck in so much shade and very limited sunlight and thus it limits its size and convolutedness. Plus there is the fact the big blonds were found near the edge of the woods where a higher and unhindered direct flow of wind would hit first.

So leaning towards trees too much I almost forgot about how it is possible to get morels to associate with plants instead of trees, for example Jerusalem Artichokes that had been reported as far back as the 1800s. For this to occur it would have to be with a plant that would allow for a leeching situation or a mycorrhizal situation. But are morels mycorrhizal? Or are they just leeches that do no harm to the plants? Parasites or parasitic situations create harmful effects, so maybe morels are nothing more than a leech.

So maybe its possible to get the appropriate sclerotial development or manifestation going and growing on the roots of either a tree or plant and harvest these sclerotia after they have attained a certain size and amount. Then place them into the mason jars with the method I described that involved pasteurization. Sterilization will limit the possibility of a plant/tree + bacteria + morel interaction.

And I believe this is what Mills is doing, harvesting sclerotia, placing them into jars, feeding them further.
The sclerotia once officially started and removed from the root, must continue to grow and gather and translocate nutrients but only after they've been officially formed and not these "micro-sclerotia". Its said the sclerotia must be soaked in water to enhance growth.

Morel spores must germinate quickly. They have a week to get established on to a root before the woodland floor dries up by the end of the week, depending on temperatures, wind and conditions. But we all know they must be sporulating even during the time when they
are showing up and there are many periods of rain. The rainy period produces higher humidity which stimulates the morels to sporulate and when the rain drops fall and the humidity is 100% or close, then the spores make it to the ground and land on leaves. At night the humidity is always high and the temps are cooler. During the afternoon the humidity is potentially lower or at its lowest and temperatures are 80ish or 70ish.

Once you have large enough sclerotia, fruiting them shouldn't be that difficult. However that's where you must find out if a plant is required or not.

But maybe they don't if the sclerotia is large enough. Seeing morels attached to small plants' roots may not be recent growth in the current spring but something that happened the year before and had been waiting.


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If you wanna ride, don't ride the white horse, if you wanna ride, ride the white pony

Edited by AcidHorse (05/05/09 08:56 PM)

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Re: morel cult thread [Re: AcidHorse]
    #10293469 -

So basically you're saying that Mills harvests morels from outdoor orchards that have these trees/plants that the morel can grow off of? And then he feeds them untill they can fruit? The jar method is the one where a barrier slows the growth of the mycelium to a high nutrient substrate right? Good job in deduction! So the mycelium makes a single scerlotia bigger instead of forming a bunch of micro scerlotia? This'll be fun! :awesome:

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Re: morel cult thread [Re: deformedreality]
    #10293475 -

Actually if I'm right, Mills' method is impractical and it is too much trouble and costly. Maintaining environmental conditions is costly way more than the worth of the morels. Grow a super expensive small amount of morels that would only cost $5,000 and yet end up with a $100,000 electric bill.

Actually the person who will become a millionaire from growing morels, will become a millionaire from growing them in a single day, from spore to mushroom.


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If you wanna ride, don't ride the white horse, if you wanna ride, ride the white pony

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Re: morel cult thread [Re: Roger Fudd]
    #10293505 -

Roger Fudd said:
So basically you're saying that Mills harvests morels from outdoor orchards that have these trees/plants that the morel can grow off of? And then he feeds them untill they can fruit? The jar method is the one where a barrier slows the growth of the mycelium to a high nutrient substrate right? Good job in deduction! So the mycelium makes a single scerlotia bigger instead of forming a bunch of micro scerlotia? This'll be fun! :awesome:


Let me make it clear, I'm not saying Mills harvests the sclerotia from outdoors (that would be idiotic), but I'm saying he cultivates the sclerotia on seedlings or saplings or plants indoors then harvests the sclerotia once officially formed and transplants the sclerotia into the jars where they continue feeding on the grains.

Then you can divide the sclerotia up and store some and inoculate with some or make the sclerotia proliferate even more sclerotia.


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If you wanna ride, don't ride the white horse, if you wanna ride, ride the white pony

Edited by AcidHorse (05/05/09 09:18 PM)

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Re: morel cult thread [Re: AcidHorse]
    #10293553 -

Ahhhhh, I see now. That is very logical, since the sclerotia would be large, and possess the ability to stay large and not have its nutrients sapped by other microsclerotia.

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Re: morel cult thread [Re: Roger Fudd]
    #10293567 -

The case with Morchella rufobrunnea may be a true one. If this is a truly different species than yellow and black it may have evolved to a level
where it did not need to establish itself onto a tree root and they are capable of using any nearby plant, which is the best strategy in an arid environment where soil moisture is seldom seen. But in an environment that isn't arid, it flourishes and this must explain why it is so widespread on the west coast. So I figure this morel came from Mexico or Central or South America. The east coast states have yet to see it's
presence yet but I'm sure its on its way. I think its a foreign invader, much like Garlic Mustard.

And in pictures of rufobrunnea I have
see green plants growing even in the landscape mulch.

Maybe rufobrunnea is more aggressive than the other morels when dealing with plants, maybe its not trying to be symbiont but a parasite or super leech.


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If you wanna ride, don't ride the white horse, if you wanna ride, ride the white pony

Edited by AcidHorse (05/05/09 09:35 PM)

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Re: morel cult thread [Re: AcidHorse]
    #10293622 -

So if the morel uses the plant roots, we would be looking for a plant with a very fine root structure for more surface area, and therefore more absorbtion rather than a tuber or taproot like a beet or radish right?

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Re: morel cult thread [Re: Roger Fudd]
    #10293704 -

Roger Fudd said:
So if the morel uses the plant roots, we would be looking for a plant with a very fine root structure for more surface area, and therefore more absorbtion rather than a tuber or taproot like a beet or radish right?


Well a tuber is the way to go but even tubers have fine roots too. Tubers will have a lot of nutrients in them.

Look at the Jerusalem artichoke's tuber.

But the thing is getting a plant that will allow an association with the morel.


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If you wanna ride, don't ride the white horse, if you wanna ride, ride the white pony

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Re: morel cult thread [Re: AcidHorse]
    #10293733 -

So you're probably looking for one that dosen't have a sharp/acidic/strong taste, since those probably possess antifungal compounds. I would discount a radish right away. How about a beet? It produces a ton of sugar.

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Re: morel cult thread [Re: Roger Fudd]
    #10293806 -

Or how about a carrot? High in sugars, lots of surface area, and easy to see it growing.

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Re: morel cult thread [Re: Roger Fudd]
    #10293865 -

Or a sponge of some sort which was soaked in the appropriate nutrients and as the "sponge" dries out from the nutrients being sucked out of it you can inject it with more nutrients. Just an idea...


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Re: morel cult thread [Re: Roger Fudd]
    #10294501 -

Beets and carrots sound prospective, sugar beets especially.


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If you wanna ride, don't ride the white horse, if you wanna ride, ride the white pony

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Re: morel cult thread [Re: AcidHorse]
    #10296535 -

so you grow them in an container with a plant in it than harvest good sized sclerotia than transplant them into the soil/grain jars? how do you let the plant grow and still have everything dark for sclerotia formation? what plant would i want to use? and ah do you have yellow morel spores? i never find them where i live only blacks i have only found 2 yellows in the 35 years i've been hunting here. if so could we make a trade? this method is intended for only with yellows or blacks too? nice info!


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Re: morel cult thread [Re: metalhead]
    #10298016 -

metalhead said:
so you grow them in an container with a plant in it than harvest good sized sclerotia than transplant them into the soil/grain jars? how do you let the plant grow and still have everything dark for sclerotia formation? what plant would i want to use? and ah do you have yellow morel spores? i never find them where i live only blacks i have only found 2 yellows in the 35 years i've been hunting here. if so could we make a trade? this method is intended for only with yellows or blacks too? nice info!


It's dark for the morels since they're growing underground. In a pot. Some of the prospective plants were talked about above.

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Re: morel cult thread [Re: metalhead]
    #10298239 -

metalhead said:
so you grow them in an container with a plant in it than harvest good sized sclerotia than transplant them into the soil/grain jars? how do you let the plant grow and still have everything dark for sclerotia formation? what plant would i want to use? and ah do you have yellow morel spores? i never find them where i live only blacks i have only found 2 yellows in the 35 years i've been hunting here. if so could we make a trade? this method is intended for only with yellows or blacks too? nice info!


I would try with seedling or sapling ash or sugar maples, grow these in pasteurized top soil mixed with mulch and wood ash. Inoculate with morel spores.

And monitor the growth (one month), keep an eye out for large masses, more than likely whitish-yellowish to orange in color.

Soak the sclerotia in water for a 12 hour period then transplant to jars that have a pasteurized substrate and a grain layer.

After a month there should be good sized growths.

I found a very very very small amount of yellows so far. It seems the season is dragging and coming in late.


--------------------
If you wanna ride, don't ride the white horse, if you wanna ride, ride the white pony

Edited by AcidHorse (05/06/09 05:34 PM)

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Re: morel cult thread [Re: AcidHorse]
    #10300142 -

I am curious if anyone here has ever been able to cultivate morels at home.  I have five gallons of spawn that I made from pasteurized leaf litter. I would like to find a technique which would at least allow me a chance of getting these to fruit. I have read the previous posts but if none of these techniques has worked, then I think my guess would be as good as anyones.

I have been to a couple MSU biological research stations in Northern Michigan. I don't think it seems plausible that the morel mountain company is growing trees/roots for sclerotia to then attempt to propagate the morels, it seems far to labor and cost intensive.  Some of the work the school does in the field of biotechnology is amazing, I sure this is the contributing factor for successful cultivation of morels.

They have stated it has to do with the successful co cultivation of microorganisms, is there any primary literature on this?  Could it also be due to them incorporating a "selective breeding program"? I mean is it possible they have come across a variety of morel which can be grown under artificial conditions?  Has anyone tried cloning one of these mushrooms? If not I'm sure I could get a hold of some of them.
Thanks

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Re: morel cult thread [Re: Therian]
    #10301315 -

Therian said:
I am curious if anyone here has ever been able to cultivate morels at home.  I have five gallons of spawn that I made from pasteurized leaf litter. I would like to find a technique which would at least allow me a chance of getting these to fruit. I have read the previous posts but if none of these techniques has worked, then I think my guess would be as good as anyones.

I have been to a couple MSU biological research stations in Northern Michigan. I don't think it seems plausible that the morel mountain company is growing trees/roots for sclerotia to then attempt to propagate the morels, it seems far to labor and cost intensive.  Some of the work the school does in the field of biotechnology is amazing, I sure this is the contributing factor for successful cultivation of morels.

They have stated it has to do with the successful co cultivation of microorganisms, is there any primary literature on this?  Could it also be due to them incorporating a "selective breeding program"? I mean is it possible they have come across a variety of morel which can be grown under artificial conditions?  Has anyone tried cloning one of these mushrooms? If not I'm sure I could get a hold of some of them.
Thanks


Sorry to be a search Nazi, but if you look at the WHOLE FREKING THREAD you posted in, you'll see that this whole thread is about cultivating morels, and that everything we know is basically speculation. Only a few people know how to do it, and they have it protected by patents that only work for them.

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Re: morel cult thread [Re: Therian]
    #10301359 -

Therian said:
I am curious if anyone here has ever been able to cultivate morels at home.  I have five gallons of spawn that I made from pasteurized leaf litter. I would like to find a technique which would at least allow me a chance of getting these to fruit. I have read the previous posts but if none of these techniques has worked, then I think my guess would be as good as anyones.



Nobody has attempted the methods that have been mentioned or if they got anything to work they haven't spoken.

Quote:
I have been to a couple MSU biological research stations in Northern Michigan. I don't think it seems plausible that the morel mountain company is growing trees/roots for sclerotia to then attempt to propagate the morels, it seems far to labor and cost intensive. 



That's why woodland plants were mentioned. But it has also been mentioned that there is a possible microbe or bacteria that's responsible
for the proper development of sclerotia. However seedling trees or saplings was only mentioned here for the cultivation of sclerotia.
And how is it too much labor and cost to get seedlings inoculated? The sclerotia are preserved in the fridge and can be induced to produce
even more sclerotia. But you have to have the actual sclerotial mass and not the micro-sclerotia.

Quote:
Some of the work the school does in the field of biotechnology is amazing, I sure this is the contributing factor for successful cultivation of morels.
They have stated it has to do with the successful co cultivation of microorganisms, is there any primary literature on this?  Could it also be due to them incorporating a "selective breeding program"? I mean is it possible they have come across a variety of morel which can be grown under artificial conditions?  Has anyone tried cloning one of these mushrooms? If not I'm sure I could get a hold of some of them.
Thanks


Ronald Ower (the inventor of the method: Cultivation of Morchella) conducted his first successful experiments in his mother's apartment in San Francisco, so I doubt its because these people are MSU. They didn't have the method before 1986 so what was their problem in 1980? Was it because they didn't have the secret that belonged to a San Francisco native? Maybe you are confused with their current status in the field and assuming that is how good they were back in 1986. But that is highly unlikely.


--------------------
If you wanna ride, don't ride the white horse, if you wanna ride, ride the white pony

Edited by AcidHorse (05/10/09 06:35 PM)

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Re: morel cult thread [Re: metalhead]
    #10302326 -

metalhead said:
so you grow them in an container with a plant in it



No you grow them in a tray of pasteurized substrate with plants.
Then separate the sclerotia from the roots. Then put the sclerotia in jars.

Quote:
than harvest good sized sclerotia than transplant them into the soil/grain jars? how do you let the plant grow and still have everything dark for sclerotia formation? what plant would i want to use? and ah do you have yellow morel spores? i never find them where i live only blacks i have only found 2 yellows in the 35 years i've been hunting here. if so could we make a trade? this method is intended for only with yellows or blacks too? nice info!


How is it bright buried in the soil??????????

The yellow season has been bad for me this year. I was only able to get black morel spores this year.

Very few yellows.


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If you wanna ride, don't ride the white horse, if you wanna ride, ride the white pony

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Re: morel cult thread [Re: metalhead]
    #10302442 -

Hey remember when I showed you guys that picture from gmushroom.com , Malachowski's website?

Remember the Disciotis venosa?

Have a look at this

http://www.mushroomexpert.com/fmp/recordview.pl?2006050901
http://www.mushroomexpert.com/fmp/recordview.pl?2006050903







I wonder what kind of interaction is going on here.

Their spores have got to be landing in those locations so I wonder.

barrier melds?

confrontations?

Sex? :wink: LOL.


--------------------
If you wanna ride, don't ride the white horse, if you wanna ride, ride the white pony

Edited by AcidHorse (05/07/09 03:24 PM)

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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics > Gourmet and Medicinal Mushrooms
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