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Shop: Sporeworks.EU Spores for European Microscopy   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Death Anxiety = Religion?
    #9318380 -

When the very first religion was "created", most will claim it was simply a way of dealing with their fear of death, but this cannot possibly be the answer, because someone who fears death cannot be effectively comforted by a lie they themselves created which promises life after death.


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If you spare a little of your imagination . . .

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Re: Death Anxiety = Religion? [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9318488 -

That would depend upon how credulous they are.  :shrug:

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Re: Death Anxiety = Religion? [Re: Veritas]
    #9318564 -

You completely dodged my post and jumped to your own conclusions. My point is, religion could not have originated due to fear of death. I hear this being touted all the time. It's not logical.


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If you spare a little of your imagination . . .

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Re: Death Anxiety = Religion? [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9318568 -

Religion originated as a form of slave morality.  However, it was later used by the "masters" as a form of social control.  Considering how effectively it manipulates legions of people into adhering to an arbitrary system of morality and forsaking this life for "heaven" in contemporary society in which the tenets of religion have been repeatedly discredited, one can only imagine the power it had in times prior to the Enlightenment.

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Re: Death Anxiety = Religion? [Re: it stars saddam]
    #9318585 -

it stars saddam said:
Religion originated as a form of slave morality. 


How do you know this?

it stars saddam said:
However, it was later used by the "masters" as a form of social control. Considering how effectively it manipulates legions of people


Yes. I believe this is why America is becoming more predominantly atheistic. A hedonistic nihilist is certainly more preferable to a capitalistic society than an ascetic Christian, a man with a vice being far more profitable. That's what atheism ultimately leads to, right, satisfying ourselves here and now?

Maybe modern science in America, especially with its philosophic conclusions, isn't really about the truth :shrug:


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If you spare a little of your imagination . . .

Edited by myriadeyes (11/26/08 07:07 PM)

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Re: Death Anxiety = Religion? [Re: Veritas]
    #9318688 -

Veritas said:
That would depend upon how credulous they are.  :shrug:


If this is the case, because they are so "credulous", wouldn't the man that was convinced simply believe him because of his logic? I don't see where death anxiety becomes a major player in one's belief system. Of course it plays a part, because we all fear the unknown to some extent, but I don't believe that it can be the reason why religion was originated, or even perpetuated.

Also, are you suggesting here that the originator of religion created it because he cared so much for his fellow humans, that he would lie to them to give them hope in life after death? Or he didn't care about them, but really only stood something to gain by their belief in his religion, when he later added "Yes and this God commands that you give me 10% of everything you own." Do you not think people would be intelligent enough to see past his b.s?

Edited by myriadeyes (11/26/08 07:11 PM)

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Re: Death Anxiety = Religion? [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9318704 -

Yes, religion probably originated from total ignorance.  Humans did not understand natural processes, so they attributed them to supernatural beings.  Once they understood these processes, they continued to practice religion in order to quell their death anxiety.

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Re: Death Anxiety = Religion? [Re: Veritas]
    #9318776 -

Yes, ancient men did deem occurrences such as lightning actions of the gods. As a Christian, I still believe God causes lightning...

More importantly they retained the fundamental idea of the god's creating all of existence, not just specific natural phenomena they did not understand.

Now that we understand natural processes, does that in and of itself rule out God? I think not. Yes we understand now why volcanoes erupt and why the earth quake's, but we still have yet to uncover the true origin of existence itself which ultimately is what ancient man also struggled with.

That is a large assumption that religion originated from total ignorance. I don't believe our abundance of particular scientific knowledge makes us any more intelligent concerning the "universals" than previous generations...


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If you spare a little of your imagination . . .

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Re: Death Anxiety = Religion? [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9318779 -

myriadeyes said:
it stars saddam said:
Religion originated as a form of slave morality. 


How do you know this?


I was around back then.  I saw it happen.

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Re: Death Anxiety = Religion? [Re: it stars saddam]
    #9318815 -

Exactly. Your assumption has no basis, neither logically nor empirically.


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If you spare a little of your imagination . . .

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Re: Death Anxiety = Religion? [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9318836 -

My life is over.  How can I carry on without empirical support?

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Re: Death Anxiety = Religion? [Re: it stars saddam]
    #9318912 -

I guess I don't understand why you entered a debate expecting not to be questioned or challenged. If you have no reasons to support your beliefs, sounds like you may be controlled by those "masters" you referred to :shrug:


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If you spare a little of your imagination . . .

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Re: Death Anxiety = Religion? [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9318944 -

I need to take a long, hard look in the mirror and reevaluate the direction in which my life is heading.

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Re: Death Anxiety = Religion? [Re: it stars saddam]
    #9318982 -

:thumbup: we all do. everyday.











(yes I know you're being sarcastic)


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If you spare a little of your imagination . . .

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Re: Death Anxiety = Religion? [Re: it stars saddam]
    #9319039 -

:lol:


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Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:

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Re: Death Anxiety = Religion? [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9319701 -

Well, belief in religion is about more the just death anxiety, although you could consider that part of it if you broke the causes down enough. It's clear when you go back to the beginnings of religion, it's purpose was to give primitive man control over the elements of the natural world he couldn't understand fully (rain, fire, and so on). Most early religions had gods that were embodiments of different parts of nature, and worshiping them was supposed to make sure that natural world acted in our best interests, giving us control. The human mind is scientifically shown to strongly favor stability and predictability, and so we do our (subconscious) best to give it that.

As man developed, he slowly conquered the natural world, until he could control it sufficiently enough to do away with the need for gods. Now, most us would probably laugh if someone performed a rain dance as part of a serious attempt to control the weather. We've moved on.

However, our psychological need for control goes beyond just the elements. As time went on, we came up with monotheism, a more practical religion, to deal with the new needs brought forward by urbanized life. It's no coincidence that today polytheistic religions are strongest in areas where people live more primitively.

Now, earlier, someone compared modern religion to slave morality. That's a Nietzsche argument, and it's a good one. As we developed villages, then cities, and then grand civilizations, a few people rose to the top and subjugated the rest of the population to allow for their decadence. The lower classes used religion to control their feelings of resentment and fear (fear of the power held over them by the wealthy) by glorifying the negative aspects of their condition (such as a lack of wealth). The wealthy, wise in their ways, saw that religion was an easy way to give the lower classes the illusion of control without actually giving them any actual control (which would mean giving up some of their wealth and power).

However, as technology progressed, the wealth became so abundant in first world countries like the USA that most of the lower classes were able to become "middle classes". Democracy also took greater hold, as people finally realized, although not fully, that the church had been peddling slave morality to them to maintain control over them. That's why the constitution explicitly separates church and state. 

Because of those developments, we no longer need religion as much because we have less resentment and fear. Religion only hangs around because of middling psychological issues, like death anxiety, personal guilt, or mild resentment (as opposed to the bitter resentment of the lower classes of the Roman Empire).

Our new problem is dealing with the dissatisfaction caused by living in a technological society. It's not a natural way of living. Religion is ineffectual at dealing with this, it has become slave mortality and we no longer identify ourselves as slaves as much. Crazily enough, we seem to have attempted to deal with that dissatisfaction using technology, which was the cause of the problem in the first place. We continuing to develop more elaborate forms of electronic entertainment, from black and white televisions to video games and computers. Even bars, for example, that venerable and ancient center of entertainment, now rely on electronically recorded music played through electronic sound systems, or crazy lights, or big screen TVs (amongst other things) to entertain people.

Consuming the products of technology has become our 'new' religion, our new way to control our feelings, our lack of control over the causes of our dissatisfaction, and our need for purpose. When the economy fails, most of us don't respond by just praying to God. No, that would be silly. Instead, we, along with our leaders (like Barack Obama), decide that consumerism is the only way to save the economy. The government is preparing to issue even more debt so that consumerism can continue without a hitch. Consumerism is our God. Instead of using this economic crisis to seriously reevaluate our ways of life, we do what makes us comfortable, what has placated our psychological needs for decades now - buying more crap. Call it consumer morality. To me it's just as irrational as slave morality, and has a lot of negative effects our world (which are too lengthy to get into here). It's just not a logical way of looking at the world. Most people in the dark ages didn't think Catholicism was illogical, but now we look at people back then as backwards. Don't worry though, our turn to look ridiculous is coming up in a couple of centuries.

Edited by iamconfused (11/26/08 10:11 PM)

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Re: Death Anxiety = Religion? *DELETED* [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #9319833 -

Post deleted by Bauhn

Reason for deletion: b



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Edited by MR14 (11/26/08 10:49 PM)

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Re: Death Anxiety = Religion? [Re: MR14]
    #9319895 -

Quote:
...it is irresponsible cynically to preach the absurdity of existence.


This argument doesn't work for me, at least not in this context. Would you have been against attacking the the Catholic church in the dark ages? After all, that's what provided meaning to the lives of most people at the time.

I think life is beautiful and sacred. The relationships we can have with people on an individual level (not looking at life from a societal perspective) are, to put it simply, magical and worth living for. I don't think existence is absurd, and I hope what I wrote didn't come across as that.

I just think that some of the things we do as a society are absurd. The Catholic church was absurd, and I think consumerism is absurd. Europe didn't start to free itself (and, ultimately, America) from Catholicism until people started to voice dissident opinions. It's a vital part of change.

Edited by iamconfused (11/26/08 10:52 PM)

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Re: Death Anxiety = Religion? *DELETED* [Re: iamconfused]
    #9319946 -

Post deleted by Bauhn

Reason for deletion: b



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Edited by MR14 (11/26/08 11:05 PM)

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Re: Death Anxiety = Religion? [Re: MR14]
    #9319997 -

Quote:
"From this you may gather how much also the man in the street may benefit from an author, even in an extreme life situation, not to say a death situation.  You may see as well how far-reaching the author's social responsibility is. It is true, the author should be granted the freedom of opinion and its expression; but freedom is not the last word, it is not the whole story. Freedom threatens to degenerate into arbitrariness unless it is balanced by responsibleness."


And I use that same argument against that author. He is criticizing the social responsibility of "nihilist" authors while ignoring the equally powerful social consequences of the passivity (what he calls 'therapeutic literature') he authoritatively suggests. He seems to view passivity as responsibleness. I would argue the opposite. But that's just my opinion.

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