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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Animals and humility
    #9157668 -

Regarding the question of whether we're animals, I think the answer is yes, even saying that it is more than obvious. But what does the question, and search for belief within this comparison mean?

In order to be superior, there has to be an inferior? This can be seen even in our interactions with other humans. It's actually quite pronounced, if you look for it. Superior could equate to life, while inferior, to death.

Animals die, and considering most of us eat them, it's far easier to justify an animals death, rather than our own. In the face of obvious death in another animal, we separate ourselves from that. We are not them, so we may not die. This can be seen even in our interactions with other humans. We are not them so we will not die.

We are the killers? The ego passes judgment, and we deserved to be killed. We not only eat animals, we casually step on them, kill them for amusement, and enslave them with hardly a second thought. We even do these things to other humans. We avoid the shame of guilt by denying our animal nature.

We may bemoan it, and wish to rise above it, yet we also treat others and ourselves, like animals, which could be considered good or bad depending on the treatment. It's this self reflective quality and the component of death, that creates the question of animal.

However, it could be said that in many ways we are worse than animals. I would guess this is true to some extent. Being an animal isn't the problem. Being emotionally ill, meaning, past imprints inhibiting the animal body's full range of emotional potential, might be the problem.

I think what's being avoided, isn't the animal nature, but the limiting imprints which cause death anxiety. It's the avoidance of shame, the avoidance of guilt, the avoidance of painful memories that make us less than animals. I think to be the better animal that we were meant to be, we need to take a look inside, and stop avoiding ourselves.

This brings up depression. Depression could be said to be a very noble thing, taking the time and effort to be submerged in those emotional imprints, yet without some counter balance, depression is extended. Is it possible that depression is the improper use of a proper tool?

What's to counter depression? Humility perhaps? Acceptance is a good idea, but presents all kinds of logical, dualistic based versions of accepting this and accepting that. With humility, acceptance is constant, and doesn't entail a flood of judgments. Because the acceptance of humility is encompassing, being able to face mental imprints becomes much more feasible. With humility, depression can not last long. Only the narcissistic spend their lives depressed.

Humility (from Wikipedia): is the defining characteristic of an unpretentious and modest person, someone who does not think that he or she is better or more important than others.

From a chakra frame, humility might represent the masculine/back half of the chakra system, especially the upper half, which counters the shame based ego judgment of the lower chakras and allows that system to remain open without judgment. I think it's a natural, intuitive process. Chakras are just a neat way of describing the emotional system. As I pondered humility, I began to feel a subtle energy descending down from the back "third eye", through my back throat chakra, and into the back heart chakra. It's more meaningful than an "energy pattern", but it's interesting to look at it that way.

Interestingly, I had the "back" upper chakras pegged as such:

third eye: accepting responsibility
throat: accepting reality
heart: accepting love

Thinking about it as humility, is much easier than "trying to get those chakras open". Much easier than some pie in the sky quest for full bloody enlightenment. Beyond this, it's a matter of exploring that emotional memory with the detachment that comes with the acceptance of love.

Hell, is judgment, and is a lie. It may exist within the living as a real illusion. Perhaps the failure to be humble, is the only cause of suffering? The only cause of hell's existence? Perhaps the willingness to be humble, is the only cause of redemption, if it is desired? The only cause of heaven's/nirvana's existence? Heaven is real, and is simply our natural state, as animals.


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rahz

comfort pleasure power love     truth awareness peace I am      I feel      I do     I love  I speak    I see    I know

why there is reality and patterned, law-like consistency at all, rather than noise or non-reality is not a question physics answers. It's a question physics presupposes an answer to in order to provide other answers.

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Re: Animals and humility [Re: Rahz]
    #9157869 -

Your argument is dichotomous in that it argues that we are are differentiated from animals and that is bad; yet, we should adopt "humility" which is surely not an animalistic trait.  Care to explain?


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"plus they atually think jambands are good or sumthing, so they clearly know absolutely nothing about music, clearly lol" -Bassfreak

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Re: Animals and humility [Re: Rahz]
    #9157910 -

humans are beasts  :evildog:  off with our heads!


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:jah:

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Re: Animals and humility [Re: All We Perceive]
    #9157912 -

I'm arguing that we are more similar, and that it is neither good or bad. It is not the adoption of humility, but the exercising of it, that I'm suggesting. I would also suggest that mammals, at least, have the ability to experience humility. They also have the ability to be arrogant. I think it would be fair to call humility a higher function, but not exclusive to humans.


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rahz

comfort pleasure power love     truth awareness peace I am      I feel      I do     I love  I speak    I see    I know

why there is reality and patterned, law-like consistency at all, rather than noise or non-reality is not a question physics answers. It's a question physics presupposes an answer to in order to provide other answers.

Edited by Rahz (10/30/08 02:08 AM)

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Re: Animals and humility [Re: Rahz]
    #9157920 -

I should also point out that humility is not "pity". Pity is narcissistic. Arrogance in disguise. Humility is, hopefully, a common point of reference from which a person could seek balance. Neither prideful, nor pityful.


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rahz

comfort pleasure power love     truth awareness peace I am      I feel      I do     I love  I speak    I see    I know

why there is reality and patterned, law-like consistency at all, rather than noise or non-reality is not a question physics answers. It's a question physics presupposes an answer to in order to provide other answers.

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Re: Animals and humility [Re: Rahz]
    #9157924 -

animal is label, nothing more nothing less

we are not a label

we need to quit avoiding ourselves by releasing the grasp we have on such self-definitions

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Re: Animals and humility [Re: deranger]
    #9157957 -

Well, releasing the grasp on definitions, is what I'm getting at, though I don't think being an animal is among the definitions which hold us down, unless it is a judgment and condemnation. I pointed out the animal correlation to point out the separation of us, and them.

To believe we are above animals, is arrogant and not humble: someone who does not think that he or she is better or more important than others. Humility can certainly be felt in relation toward other humans, but perhaps an attitude of humility towards all life would paint a better picture of the self.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love     truth awareness peace I am      I feel      I do     I love  I speak    I see    I know

why there is reality and patterned, law-like consistency at all, rather than noise or non-reality is not a question physics answers. It's a question physics presupposes an answer to in order to provide other answers.

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Re: Animals and humility [Re: Rahz]
    #9157972 -

can't disagree with that :thumbup:

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Re: Animals and humility [Re: Rahz]
    #9158398 -

I hear ya.:thumbup:


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Animals and humility [Re: Icelander]
    #9158423 -

Quote:
throat: accepting reality


I liked that. It reminds me of the old cliche of someone getting a "lump in their throat" when they know they've done something wrong.

P.S. Am I overlooking something when I think animals don't know shame, only fear?

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Re: Animals and humility [Re: Nexion]
    #9158539 -

My dog sure does give me an embarrassed/ ashamed look when he knows he blew it.


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Animals and humility [Re: Icelander]
    #9158542 -

He'll probably be less humble now that he's training for the Iditarod. :wink:

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Re: Animals and humility [Re: Icelander]
    #9158546 -

Blew it how? Could he be expecting punishment or do you think he is actually embarrassed?

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Re: Animals and humility [Re: Nexion]
    #9158550 -

I don't know.


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Animals and humility [Re: Icelander]
    #9159087 -

Embarrassment is an upwelling of emotion due to missing the mark (sin). A person can provide a mark for a dog, and while this could be seen as a non-natural source of embarrassment, it's embarrassment all the same. Outside punishment, dogs have a desire to be "at one" with their human companions, and events which contradict this oneness could possibly cause shame regardless of the fear of retribution. There's no reason why this function wouldn't be expressed in nature. In a pack of dogs, for instance.

Is this true though? I think that an animal would have to develop a real sense of shared companionship, in order to feel embarrassed, as opposed to simple shame over not getting their way. I've never lived among a pack of dogs, so I can only guess.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love     truth awareness peace I am      I feel      I do     I love  I speak    I see    I know

why there is reality and patterned, law-like consistency at all, rather than noise or non-reality is not a question physics answers. It's a question physics presupposes an answer to in order to provide other answers.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Animals and humility [Re: Rahz]
    #9159348 -

great post :thumbup:

We avoid the shame of guilt by denying our animal nature.

Why would denying our animal nature help us to avoid guilt when we hurt other humans? I think it ultimately is my separating myself as being something independent of all others and momentarily feeling like a god where all others should be subjected to my will. When I take on someone else's perspective, whether its an ant or a human, only then do I begin to feel compassion. From what I understood, I think I'm agreeing with you for the most part.

The term animal is a term given to non-humans to point out their inferiority. I think this only comes about by the belief that humans have souls and are therefore superior. If one does not have a belief in the soul, then they must regard all life as equal. Unfortunately, the belief of superiority has been perverted so that we are not only superior in having souls, but then become the only thing of importance.

Is it possible that depression is the improper use of a proper tool?

I think you nailed it there.

Hell, is judgment, and is a lie. It may exist within the living as a real illusion. Perhaps the failure to be humble, is the only cause of suffering? The only cause of hell's existence? Perhaps the willingness to be humble, is the only cause of redemption, if it is desired? The only cause of heaven's/nirvana's existence? Heaven is real, and is simply our natural state, as animals.

Yes! Although, I think these ideas point towards an eternal theme, and are not illusions. If pride is the only cause of suffering, and a part of us continues on after we die, pride would be our own self-inflicted eternal hell. If there was no pride on earth, I think it would be "Eden" or heaven on earth. But you say heaven is real and is our natural state. As far as I can tell, my natural state is the opposite of heaven, of humility - as a human I tend to gravitate towards being prideful. Why don't we fully experience this heaven, and as far as we can tell, animals do? Where did pride come from? Limiting emotional imprints? What do you mean by this?


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If you spare a little of your imagination . . .

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Re: Animals and humility [Re: Rahz]
    #9159383 -

Embarrassment is an upwelling of emotion due to missing the mark (sin).

Then sin is truly subjective because folk can be embarrassed by thing that are certainly not sinful.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Animals and humility [Re: Icelander]
    #9159463 -

Missing the mark, or sinning, would have to be subjective to each specific case of what the mark is. If the mark is God's Law, and you miss it, that's sin. If you've shot an arrow and missed the bullseye, you sinned, by it's definition. Don't get the definition he's using confused with the common religious idea of sin and then deem it subjective.


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If you spare a little of your imagination . . .

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Re: Animals and humility [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9159855 -

But it is subjective as there is no proof that Gods law really exists outside the bible written my men. In fact considering how many other religions there are the whole thing isn't even worth considering if you are a logical, intelligent, reasonable person.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Animals and humility [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9160259 -

Quote:
Why don't we fully experience this heaven, and as far as we can tell, animals do?



I don't think all animals fully experience heaven. In many ways, they're in the same boat we are. An injured and/or frightened animal could experience anguish, and emotional trauma, though it's capacity to be aware of death may not be as acute as ours, depending on the type of animal. Musing about this is guesswork. I'm not really sure.

Quote:
Where did pride come from? Limiting emotional imprints? What do you mean by this?


Pride is a result of limiting emotional imprints/judgmental beliefs regarding the self. In the attempt to avoid negative feelings, a person will shut down chakras in the lower body and heart. This is always caused by and accompanied by faulty beliefs. This causes emotional potential to build up, yet because it's not being expressed, there is a certain numbness (which is actually painful as opposed to numb) that develops. There will be sporadic activity, but the natural flow is cut off. In lieu of that flow, a person will find themselves with a "lumpy" flow. Emotion can only be held back for so long, and it expresses itself through outbursts which manifest in the front chakras. Arrogance occurs at the emotion rises, and pity occurs as the emotion subsides. Lost within this process is the back chakras.

Within the context of survival, being accepting isn't always kosher. When a person feels threatened, whether real or imaginary, being accepting of reality may halt. Also, keep in mind that within humanity, as well as other animals, the many are subjected to the few. We have our leaders, wolves have their alphas. Better to play dead, than to die. Back chakras (masculinity) aren't essential to begin with. It can be done without. We can still contribute to the whole, while not being whole ourselves.

It is this loss of masculine empowerment that seals in the faulty, fear based emotional flow. Without this energy from "heaven", any upwelling from down below will be interpreted as good or bad, and because of polarity, the opposite will also be experienced. This ultimately gives all expression a bad quality. Irregardless of what is felt, there will be a sense of a lack of control. This in itself isn't negative, but without a means of bringing balance back, it will eventually be interpreted as "wrong". At any rate, the psyche will revolt, and pride happens, perpetuating the process. It seems that it's only when we feel helpless, and beat down, that we are able to "give up" and experience humility... whether we like it or not. Many times I've felt this way, only to sleep it off eventually, and slide back into forgetfulness, trying to manipulate the chakras and kundalini without the necessary ingredient of divine energy. This could be called the energy of the "higher" self, the universe's energy, or perhaps God's energy, though care should be taken not to revert back into dualistic expression. Still, after all the attempts at self control, it really does seem that I (my ego) was attempting to play the system. To "beat God" at Gods own game. To be better than God.

Currently, I see the heart as an intersection. Emotion flows down to the heart, and emotion flows up to the heart, and it seems that the spine (back chakras) is the proper route for these energies. There may be reasons for practicing energy movement in other ways, but it seems that this model is close to the natural, constant state, and does not need to be give up in order to experience other temporal states.

I realize that this post might present more questions than answers, and I don't have it all figured out. It's all a work in progress for me, but it seems that I've stumbled onto something very nice. Humility certainly isn't the first rock I would have looked under. It was more a matter of failing enough times, reading the right things, and not giving up on love.

A more detailed understanding is desired, you and me both. But humility doesn't need to be understood, to be benefited from. In fact, it seems that exercising humility, without a full understanding, may be required to reach more understanding. Being humble, regardless of the situation, seems only to be a good thing. I spent 5 years working on the lower chakras, wrestling the kundalini up my spine. And while I suppose it was, in some ways, quite beneficial, until just recently I generally felt as lost as I ever have. It seemed like chakra work was leading me to an empty, dead end. Finding some humility, in a way that I can consciously choose, has changed that.

So now, being humble (If I may be so humble as to say so), I find that digging through those emotional imprints of the past is not only easy (though still painful), I relish it. So many things I've forgotten. So much pain, hidden away. One act of pain regression, begets many others. Being humble provides me with the only strength I've been able to find to do this work and actually find resolutions.

As I said, humility isn't something I was willing to seriously consider when I set out on this path. I wanted control. Humble could fuck off, at least half the time. 5 years of semi-conscious Samsara, leading into Vipassana? I wonder, if that 5 years was truly necessary? In my case, I guess so. In starting this thread, perhaps a few people may find a shortcut? I don't know how that works, but it's worth a try.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love     truth awareness peace I am      I feel      I do     I love  I speak    I see    I know

why there is reality and patterned, law-like consistency at all, rather than noise or non-reality is not a question physics answers. It's a question physics presupposes an answer to in order to provide other answers.

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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