Home | Community | Message Board
You are not signed in.
Sign In New Account
Forum Index Search Posts Trusted Vendors Highlights Galleries FAQ User List Chat Store Random Growery


This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
Threaded Mode Threaded  Previous topic Previous  View all topics Index  Next topic Next 

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1 | 2 |  [ show all ]
the struggle against bitterness
    #8528977 -

An intuition I have always had about life, and spirituality, is that bitterness is Satan, and vice versa.

In the process of living, one naturally encounters events which he did not plan for, could not possibly have planned for. Furthermore, he also encounters events, time and time again, which are crushingly contrary to his own desires.

When one is unreceptive to the uncooperative nature of reality, he becomes bitter. Bitterness, as I describe it, is characterized by a certain kind of cynical, vindictive attitude towards a character or situation experienced in one's own history. When an individual bitter about a past event or current situation in his own life sees a parallel occurring somewhere else, he immediately leaps on the chance to make sweeping generalizations, attempting to universalize his painful experiences. This becomes a vicious circle; while the bitter person is quick to proselytize his disappointment to others, he sees even more bitter parallels within his own life. It spreads to other areas of the psyche, even ones originally unaffected by the traumatic events which sparked the cycle. Ultimately, bitterness can consume all vestiges of rationality and happiness in a person. It is the cancer of the emotions. Truly bitter people can live to be quite old, but rarely to be happy or coherent about anything.

Those who avoid bitterness completely appear to most of us to be living in a kind of fantasy land of their own creation. They would rather ignore disappointment than dwell on it, and occasionally refuse to even learn from it. Ignorance is bliss, as we all know. This is an adage well adhered-to by most happy people, even the ones who wind up as splatters on the pavement.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


Edited by Tchan909 (06/16/08 05:13 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: the struggle against bitterness [Re: Sophistic Radiance] * 1
    #8529076 -

Tchan909 said:
Those who avoid bitterness completely appear to most of us to be living in a kind of fantasy land of their own creation. They would rather ignore disappointment than dwell on it, and occasionally refuse to even learn from it.


Good post.

Yeah I think it's actually the opposite.  In my opinion, bitter people live in a fantasy world, where their circumstances are somehow cosmically responsible for treating them with respect and fairness.  When I feel resentment coming on, I know that's a warning to stop that train of thought and begin to come to terms with the circumstances or else I'll be making everything worse for myself.


--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: the struggle against bitterness [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #8529147 -

WhiskeyClone said:
Tchan909 said:
Those who avoid bitterness completely appear to most of us to be living in a kind of fantasy land of their own creation. They would rather ignore disappointment than dwell on it, and occasionally refuse to even learn from it.


Good post.

Yeah I think it's actually the opposite.  In my opinion, bitter people live in a fantasy world, where their circumstances are somehow cosmically responsible for treating them with respect and fairness.  When I feel resentment coming on, I know that's a warning to stop that train of thought and begin to come to terms with the circumstances or else I'll be making everything worse for myself.


Better post.

Bitterness, resentment and regret should be clues that something in the "I'm-living-in-the-world-now" department is broken or malfunctioning.  A person makes things worse not only for themselves if they don't fix it, they make things worse for others around them.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: the struggle against bitterness [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #8529374 -

Senor_Hongos said:
Bitterness, resentment and regret should be clues that something in the "I'm-living-in-the-world-now" department is broken or malfunctioning.  A person makes things worse not only for themselves if they don't fix it, they make things worse for others around them.


Indeed, hence my "splatters on the pavement" comment. There is always a healthy balance to be achieved.

I also believe that excessive bitterness overtaxes the soul and must be carefully guarded against before it metastasizes.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


Edited by Tchan909 (06/16/08 10:21 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: the struggle against bitterness [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #8529449 -

Quote:
Those who avoid bitterness completely appear to most of us to be living in a kind of fantasy land of their own creation. They would rather ignore disappointment than dwell on it, and occasionally refuse to even learn from it.


*bzzt* False dilemma!  Avoiding bitterness does not mean ignoring disappointments, nor refusing to learn from them.  Bitterness is a learned method of explaining disappointments to oneself, of assigning value and meaning to disappointments.  Denial is an inadequate and immature method of dealing with life.

If one can learn to explain events to oneself in a manner which evokes disappointment, then one can learn alternative manners of explaining the same events.  If the desired effect is equanimity, then one must learn to view events as essentially neutral.  Once events are seen as neutral, you may dissect them analytically in order to learn from the contents.

Quote:
Ignorance is bliss, as we all know.


We do?  IMO, ignorance is just ignorance, and is just as likely to lead to suffering as it is to bliss.  Perhaps a bit more likely to lead to suffering, actually.  Ignorance often results in just "following the crowd," and the crowd is likely to indulge in emotionally-unhealthy behaviors.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: the struggle against bitterness [Re: Veritas]
    #8529489 -

Totally agree.:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: the struggle against bitterness [Re: Veritas]
    #8529495 -

Veritas said:
Quote:
Those who avoid bitterness completely appear to most of us to be living in a kind of fantasy land of their own creation. They would rather ignore disappointment than dwell on it, and occasionally refuse to even learn from it.


*bzzt* False dilemma!  Avoiding bitterness does not mean ignoring disappointments, nor refusing to learn from them.  Bitterness is a learned method of explaining disappointments to oneself, of assigning value and meaning to disappointments.  Denial is an inadequate and immature method of dealing with life.


Can you explain this "explaining" by an example?  Can't disappointments be an unlearned response?  I understand bitterness in terms of entitlement--a feeling or understanding that we are somehow "owed" more than we actually are.

Quote:
If one can learn to explain events to oneself in a manner which evokes disappointment, then one can learn alternative manners of explaining the same events.


Based on the premise that disappointments are a learned response.  If disappointments are unlearned, the argument falls flat.

Quote:
If the desired effect is equanimity, then one must learn to view events as essentially neutral.  Once events are seen as neutral, you may dissect them analytically in order to learn from the contents.


This seems to be another hiding place.  Are events neutral?  Is a punch in the face the same as a kiss?  I suppose I would need examples to understand what you are trying to say.

Quote:
Quote:
Ignorance is bliss, as we all know.


We do?  IMO, ignorance is just ignorance, and is just as likely to lead to suffering as it is to bliss.  Perhaps a bit more likely to lead to suffering, actually.  Ignorance often results in just "following the crowd," and the crowd is likely to indulge in emotionally-unhealthy behaviors.


This would depend on the type of ignorance, wouldn't it?


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: the struggle against bitterness [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #8529576 -

Quote:
Disappointed
Thwarted in hope, desire, or expectation.


Hopes, desires & expectations are learned, as is the thought habit in which one describes such events as warranting bitterness.  To clarify, I would make the distinction between desires and needs.  When an essential need goes unmet, our reaction is not learned but innate.  When our non-essential desires/expectations of reality go unmet, our neurotic reaction is based upon a learned (and false) idea that reality should meet our expectations and fulfill our desires.

As far as the neutrality of events, the best way to understand this is to consider the event as separate from one's emotional reaction to the event.  Emotions are not neutral...never have been, never will be. 

Example:  a volcano erupts near a city, flooding the streets with lava & causing injuries, death & destruction.  A volcano also erupts on the ocean floor, warming the surrounding water, providing habitat and nutrition for deep-sea creatures, and solidifying into new ocean floor.  Is one event "bad" and the other "good," or are these descriptions merely emotional explanations of neutral events?

What type of ignorance do you see as more likely to lead to bliss?  To reverse it, what type of knowledge or wisdom would, in and of itself, lead towards suffering?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: the struggle against bitterness [Re: Veritas]
    #8530277 -

Quote:
Neutral
neither moral nor immoral; neither good nor evil, right nor wrong


Are you arguing that events cannot be moral or immoral?*

One can expect relative good health from previous experience with it.  Is good health, in your opinion, an innate need?

Ignorance of bad news can lead to emotional suffering.  Conversely, knowledge of bad news can lead to emotional suffering.

You seem to eschew examples.  Why is this?


*See previous example.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: the struggle against bitterness [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #8530307 -

Are you arguing that events cannot be moral or immoral?*


I will argue it. To life on earth and in space  as far as we can tell all events are neither moral or immoral. That is totally a human construct and subjective and often, IMO, incorrect to boot.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: the struggle against bitterness [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #8530317 -

I gave you an example of the neutrality of events vs. the non-neutrality of emotional reactions to events.  Is a volcano moral or immoral?  Neither.  With your example of a punch in the face vs. a kiss, one cannot judge the morality of the event absent the context.

Is it more "right" or "moral" to kiss someone than it is to punch them?  Yes?  OK, let's set the context:  an insane individual is about to detonate a nuclear bomb in the middle of a crowded shopping center.  You have silently crept up behind him, and have a brief window of time in which to take action.  Should you punch him or kiss him?

Another context:  you are dancing with your wife's sister at your wife's birthday party.  Your sister-in-law presses close to you & whispers that she wants you.  Is kissing her the "moral" action in this situation?

If you wish to apply morality, you must apply it to the choices of individuals, not to the events which they initiate based upon those choices.

Does knowledge of bad news necessarily lead directly to emotional suffering, or does the neurotic rejection of bad news lead to emotional suffering? 

How is it reasonable for a human to expect good health based upon previous experience?  :confused:  Bodily systems are prone to malfunctions and break downs, just like any other aspect of physical reality.  In fact, I would say that the most-reasonable expectation regarding health would be that it will be compromised, just as the most-reasonable expectation regarding pain is that we will experience it on multiple occasions during our lifetime.  How would you justify describing good health as an innate need?

Quote:
Bitterness:
Marked by resentment or cynicism.


IMO, bitterness is the direct result of:

1. Unrealistic expectations of reality.
2. Habitual explanation of events as personal affronts.

Since you requested examples, I'll present the same event with two different explanations by the individuals involved:

Event:  Laid off from long-term job

Susan's explanation:  This is a challenging situation, and I may experience some financial hardships and stress during the process of locating another job.  It's clear that my industry has had some serious setbacks recently, and my employer was faced with reducing their workforce in order to stay in business.  I need to touch base with my references to make sure that prospective employers will be able to contact them & hear about my skills.

Frank's explanation:  Those bastards!  I can't believe that they would reward my loyalty by stabbing me in the back.  What am I going to do?  I don't have any savings, so I'll have to borrow money or use my credit cards.  Who is going to hire someone who has been laid off?  They'll probably think that I was "dead weight" that the company was smart to eliminate.  The economy is crappy right now, so there probably won't be any new jobs available.  This just figures...why do bad things always happen to good people?  Life sucks.

Both of these explanations are the result of a learned POV on events.  Susan chooses to view the event realistically, while Frank chooses to catastrophize and personalize the event.  Frank is cultivating bitterness, while Susan is cultivating optimism and pro-activity.

Edited by Veritas (06/16/08 03:35 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: the struggle against bitterness [Re: Veritas]
    #8530386 -

Veritas said:
I gave you an example of the neutrality of events vs. the non-neutrality of emotional reactions to events.  Is a volcano moral or immoral?  Neither. 

If you wish to apply morality, you must apply it to the choices of individuals, not to the events which they initiate based upon those choices.



Quote:
Event
Something that happens at a given place and time


As volition is contained in things that happen at a given place and time, perhaps a different word should be chosen.

Quote:
Does knowledge of bad news necessarily lead directly to emotional suffering, or does the neurotic rejection of bad news lead to emotional suffering? 


Both.  Unless you are :spock:

Quote:
How is it reasonable for a human to expect good health based upon previous experience?  :confused:


Inductive logic.

 
Quote:
Bodily systems are prone to malfunctions and break downs, just like any other aspect of physical reality.  In fact, I would say that the most-reasonable expectation regarding health would be that it will be compromised, just as the most-reasonable expectation regarding pain is that we will experience it on multiple occasions during our lifetime.  How would you justify describing good health as an innate need?



I wouldn't.  But judging from your posts, and your argument, you would.

A person could be relatively healthy for their entire life only to find out they have cancer.  The normal emotional stages one goes through under such circumstances have been outlined and detailed ad nauseum.

The disappointment, in that case, would be a natural, normal response to such news.  Eventually, one comes to accept it (if they are normal).


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: the struggle against bitterness [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #8530415 -

Senor_Hongos said:
Quote:
Event
Something that happens at a given place and time


As volition is contained in things that happen at a given place and time, perhaps a different word should be chosen.


So you are stating that the internal choice to initiate a particular event is part of the same event?  I would argue that the choice is a separate, private event, if an event at all.  In either case, morality is more accurately applied to the event which occurs outside someone's head.  (If you choose to apply morality at all.)


Quote:
Quote:
Does knowledge of bad news necessarily lead directly to emotional suffering, or does the neurotic rejection of bad news lead to emotional suffering? 


Both.  Unless you are :spock:


Baloney.  Knowledge does not lead directly to an emotional reaction.  We must interpret the knowledge prior to reacting, so you cannot state that the knowledge is causal.  Also, Spock was highly illogical, Captain.  :wink:

Quote:
Quote:
How is it reasonable for a human to expect good health based upon previous experience?  :confused:


Inductive logic.


Weak induction.  One's individual prior experience of good health cannot be used as a premise for continued experience of good health.  A strong induction regarding this subject would be as follows:

1.  All observed humans experience both good health and illness,

therefore

2.  As a human, I will experience both good health and illness.

Quote:
Quote:
How would you justify describing good health as an innate need?



I wouldn't.  But judging from your posts, and your argument, you would.


Explain, please.

Quote:
A person could be relatively healthy for their entire life only to find out they have cancer.  The normal emotional stages one goes through under such circumstances have been outlined and detailed ad nauseum.

The disappointment, in that case, would be a natural, normal response to such news.  Eventually, one comes to accept it (if they are normal).


Disappointment is one of the stages of grief?  Not according to Elisabeth Kubler-Ross:

Denial
Anger
Bargaining
Depression
Acceptance

Edited by Veritas (06/16/08 03:48 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: the struggle against bitterness [Re: Veritas]
    #8530474 -

Quote:
Your sister-in-law presses close to you & whispers that she wants you.  Is kissing her the "moral" action in this situation?



Is she a 'looker'?


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: the struggle against bitterness [Re: Veritas]
    #8530542 -

Veritas said:
Senor_Hongos said:
Quote:
Event
Something that happens at a given place and time


As volition is contained in things that happen at a given place and time, perhaps a different word should be chosen.


So you are stating that the internal choice to initiate a particular event is part of the same event?  I would argue that the choice is a separate, private event, if an event at all.  In either case, morality is more accurately applied to the event which occurs outside someone's head.  (If you choose to apply morality at all.)


No, I am stating that an event is something that happens at a given place and time.  As human action can be an event, it can be described as moral or immoral.


Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Does knowledge of bad news necessarily lead directly to emotional suffering, or does the neurotic rejection of bad news lead to emotional suffering? 


Both.  Unless you are :spock:


Baloney.  Knowledge does not lead directly to an emotional reaction.  We must interpret the knowledge prior to reacting, so you cannot state that the knowledge is causal.  Also, Spock was highly illogical, Captain.  :wink:


As you wish.  :lol:  You just learn your loved one is dead.  You need to "interpret" this knowledge before you have an emotional response?

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
How is it reasonable for a human to expect good health based upon previous experience?  :confused:


Inductive logic.


Weak induction.  One's individual prior experience of good health cannot be used as a premise for continued experience of good health.  A strong induction regarding this subject would be as follows:

1.  All observed humans experience both good health and illness,

therefore

2.  As a human, I will experience both good health and illness.


All humans experience illness?  But that is beside the point.  You were wondering how someone could expect to be healthy.  I answered because they always were--nothing significant or exciting there.

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
How would you justify describing good health as an innate need?



I wouldn't.  But judging from your posts, and your argument, you would.


Explain, please.


Quote:
Hopes, desires & expectations are learned, as is the thought habit in which one describes such events as warranting bitterness.  To clarify, I would make the distinction between desires and needs.  When an essential need goes unmet, our reaction is not learned but innate.


According to this description, the expectation of relatively good health, when thwarted, should not disappoint.

Quote:
Quote:
A person could be relatively healthy for their entire life only to find out they have cancer.  The normal emotional stages one goes through under such circumstances have been outlined and detailed ad nauseum.

The disappointment, in that case, would be a natural, normal response to such news.  Eventually, one comes to accept it (if they are normal).


Disappointment is one of the stages of grief?  Not according to Elisabeth Kubler-Ross:

Denial
Anger
Bargaining
Depression
Acceptance


Tacitly, yes.  Or do you presume that learning you have cancer would not be disappointing?

I guess what I am trying to say here is that disappointment is a normal response to certain events.  You seem to be arguing the opposite.  This seems to lean into some Eastern MysticalTM idea that we can train ourselves to not be disappointed by simply having no unreasonable desires, even desires of good health.

Are you really trying to argue that position?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: the struggle against bitterness [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #8530593 -

Bitterness is a kind of entropy, as if your mind was beginning to roll down a staircase and you kept giving it another shove. It's a kind of sticky substance that keeps people pinned down, because when we see it in others we somehow think we've justified it. It spreads between us in this way. All one has to do is stop projecting themselves outwards in order to stop it. All these bitter people are out there looking for someone to be themselves because they choose not to, and all they find are other bitter people doing the same thing, so they form this bitter collective, which is basically where lots and lots of scared people stand around pretending nothing is wrong.


--------------------

Wherever the hero may wander, whatever he may do, he is ever in the presence of his own essence — for he has the perfected eye to see. There is no separateness. Thus, just as the way of social participation may lead in the end to a realization of the All in the individual, so that of exile brings the hero to the Self in all.

joseph campbell


For, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

jesus

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: the struggle against bitterness [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #8530750 -

Quote:
You just learn your loved one is dead.  You need to "interpret" this knowledge before you have an emotional response?


Yes, there is no way for this relayed information to have a direct emotional impact.  One might make an argument that actually witnessing a loved ones' demise could evoke an emotional reaction with little or no prior interpretation of events, but even this is a stretch given the structure of the human brain.

Again, I'll go to the context:

Situation 1:  Your loved one has been in incredible pain due to Stage IV cancer.  You've witnessed them losing their hair, vomiting after chemo, moaning in their sleep as the morphine wears off, being confined to bed as they lose their strength.  Finally, they draw their final breath & the torture is over.

Situation 2:  Your loved one is killed in a shoot-out with police after kidnapping and raping a little girl. 

Situation 3:  Your loved one attempts to strangle you, and sustains a fatal blow to the head during your struggle to survive.

Will your emotional reaction be the same in all 3 situations?  Will it compare to your reaction if a young, vibrant, healthy loved one died unexpectedly?  If not, then the event is not directly generating your emotional reaction.  You are generating your emotional reaction via your expectations and the meaning you assign to events.

I am not claiming that it is possible to avoid emotional reactions, but rather exposing the habituated thought process through which we evoke and sustain said reactions.

Quote:
All humans experience illness?  But that is beside the point.  You were wondering how someone could expect to be healthy.  I answered because they always were--nothing significant or exciting there.



This is the logical equivalent of expecting that one will never die because they have always been alive.  The disappointment experienced when reality does not meet our unreasonable expectations is the result of acquired ideas and illogical thought processes.

Quote:
I guess what I am trying to say here is that disappointment is a normal response to certain events.  You seem to be arguing the opposite.  This seems to lean into some Eastern MysticalTM idea that we can train ourselves to not be disappointed by simply having no unreasonable desires, even desires of good health.

Are you really trying to argue that position?


This is not an Eastern Mystical idea, but rather the core proposition of both Epictetus' philosophy and Albert Ellis' psychology.  The "normal" response to events is usually one in which we blame external events for our internal emotional reactions, rather than recognizing our responsibility for generating said reactions. 

Bitterness goes beyond simple disappointment, however, in that it involves a globalized negative belief system.  When someone describes the experience of repeated disappointment to oneself as proof that the world is against them, they become embittered.  However, if one learns to take responsibility for the irrational and illogical beliefs regarding reality which resulted in experiencing disappointment, they need not become embittered.

You seem to be arguing that, because disappointment is a common emotional reaction, it is both innate and unavoidable.  This is an unreasonable POV, and akin to claiming that, since road rage is a common emotional reaction, it is innate and unavoidable. 

IMO, neurotic disappointment is a symptom of underlying irrational beliefs about reality.  Rather than perpetuating the belief that there is nothing we can do about it, since it is normal, why not examine the possibility that it is possible to develop another approach to the inevitable bumps along the road of life?

Edited by Veritas (06/16/08 05:35 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: the struggle against bitterness [Re: Veritas]
    #8530762 -

You rock Veritas. :thumbup:

I would prefer a whole human race full of your attitude.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: the struggle against bitterness [Re: Icelander]
    #8530796 -

Veriti? Is that the plural?


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: the struggle against bitterness [Re: Veritas]
    #8531524 -

Veritas said:
[snipped]

This is not an Eastern Mystical idea, but rather the core proposition of both Epictetus' philosophy and Albert Ellis' psychology.

[snipped]


This is the core of your philosophy.  That being the case, it would be fruitless to continue our conversation.  Not only is there a distinct correlation to Eastern Mysticism, but, Ellis, to put it bluntly, is an idiot and an asshole.

Nuff said.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1 | 2 |  [ show all ]

Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
Threaded Mode Threaded  Previous topic Previous  View all topics Index  Next topic Next 

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Disappointment egghead1 954 8 03/30/05 09:55 AM
by gettinjiggywithit
* Expectations in Life & Meditation Sinbad 1,003 10 02/24/05 02:11 PM
by Sinbad
* expectations often lead to dissapointment
( 1 2 all )		 Muppet 3,887 29 05/05/05 02:49 PM
by Icelander
* what do u expect after death?
( 1 2 3 all )		 shr00m 5,510 56 06/14/03 05:02 AM
by EvilGir
* The struggle to rediscover herbs97 1,714 11 12/26/01 06:32 AM
by LOBO
* MAN(ifest) your OWN expectations - on YOUR OWN.... MAN.... PhanTomCat 390 4 02/11/05 04:40 PM
by Help on the Way
* Bitterness towards the opposite sex.
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 all )		 Phluck 8,605 104 01/28/04 06:26 PM
by DoctorJ
* In search of struggle? SneezingPenis 968 17 05/24/05 02:30 AM
by Icelander

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, DividedQuantum
3,804 topic views. 2 members, 48 guests and 29 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2026 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.034 seconds spending 0.007 seconds on 18 queries.