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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics > Advanced Mycology
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Gallons Jars of Spawn
    #843149 -

The Raccoon has pints, quarts & half gallons of bird seed spawn down pat.

For some odd reason, he fails 9 out of 10 times with gallon jars.

He has tried PC'ing at 15 pounds 60, 90 & 120 minutes.

No molds appear, but 90% fall to some sort of sweet smelling bacterial contamination.

Any suggestions why?

SixTango


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~whiskey river rafting, hot tubbing, dirty dancing & spending money on - wild women - having fun & just gonna waste the rest~

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Re: Gallons Jars of Spawn [Re: SixTango]
    #843185 -

perhaps too little gas exchange for the big amount of spawn?


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Grow Mushrooms from Spores - PF-Tek for Simple Minds

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Re: Gallons Jars of Spawn [Re: SixTango]
    #843200 -

i prolly don't know what the hell i'm saying but its just a theory. with bulk substrate it take a while to colonize and although sterilization has taken place and that sterilization has not been breached, contamination can begin to form inside an enclosed environment. birdseed contains rye grass, millet, etc. which are natural substances they begin to breakdown into by natural processes after time. enzymes and whatnot. well after a certain amount of time and lack of outside environmental contributions maybe some of the substances created inside your "sterilized ecosystem" begin to decompose and ro or contaminate themselves. lack of oxygen, etc.

just a thought

is it possible to utilize filter discs during colonization?


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"Emancipate yourself from mental slavery, none but ourselves can free our minds."

Bob Marley

Remember, EGOISM is the beginning, the source, and the root of EVIL!

http://www.fanaticus.com/pf-tek.htm
http://www.mycotopia.net/teks/hongus.html

Edited by XAZIA (08/25/02 10:54 PM)

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Re: Gallons Jars of Spawn [Re: XAZIA]
    #843496 -

Thanx for your insights.

The Raccoon uses filter disks internaly & externaly on 1 gallon jars of bird seed spawn. He has tried one 1/4 hole in the lid & 2, then 3 & all differing lenghts of PC time. The external temp is right for colonization as quarts & half gollons colonize fine.They are all seed to seed transfers -- made under very sterile conditions.

Sterility is not the problem, as quarts & half gallons done from the same transfers colonize fine.

I think it has something to do with the heat generated inside the 1 gallon jars & not enough gas exchange. They seen to start to colonize fine. Then for whatever reason, the bottom half the jar starts getting wet funky looking & a bacteria sets in from the bottom up? Whatever it is -- it smells sweet. Almost like some fermentation is going on inside the jar?

The Coon tried less of a water soak to see if that helped. With less water, the seed is too dry to colonize well? Beyond the Raccoon -- I guess. Oh well. Another day -- another jar. The Raccon will keep plugging away at it.

There has to be some answer to this little puzzle. The Coon just has not found it -- yet.

SixTango


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~whiskey river rafting, hot tubbing, dirty dancing & spending money on - wild women - having fun & just gonna waste the rest~

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Re: Gallons Jars of Spawn [Re: SixTango]
    #843521 -

Edited by mndfreeze

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Re: Gallons Jars of Spawn [Re: Barbi]
    #843544 -

Thanx for the input. The Coon will try as you suggest. SixTango


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~whiskey river rafting, hot tubbing, dirty dancing & spending money on - wild women - having fun & just gonna waste the rest~

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Re: Gallons Jars of Spawn [Re: SixTango]
    #843833 -

I had similar problems in gallon jars I more or less atributed it to several factors after the autoclaving time was addressed
1) lack of gas exchange from the center and bottom of the jar

2) excess heat developed in larger spawn containers can kill mycelium

3)the jars I was using did not have traditional canning lids (old pickle jars)

when I dropped back to 1/2 gal the problem was eliminated.So now I do twice as many 1/2 gallons for developing outdoor spawn(I am up to 22 sites of P azurescens and P.cyanescens ) Peace "the REV"


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Manna........Don't leave Earth without it!

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Re: Gallons Jars of Spawn [Re: Reverend_Myc] * 1
    #843917 -

If you are prepping the grain the same way each time that might be your problem. The larger the container, the drier you need to make the grain. Due to less air exchange, and denser substrates, the extra moisture makes an ideal environment for anaerobic bacteria.

Make the grain drier and I'd recomend pressure cooking for 2 hours in such large jars. See if that doesn't fix the problem.


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"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi

PM me with any cultivation questions.

I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.

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Re: Gallons Jars of Spawn [Re: mycofile]
    #844056 -

Mycofile,

I think you hit on it -- -- re: prepping the seed the same each time & about excess miosture. The top 1/2 the jar seems to do well. I assume as it colonizes, that helps to seal -- off the bottom half & bacteria sets in there. The Coon only attempted to adjust the water content once. I think -- that time he got it to dry. The Coon will adjust to a lesser amount of water & try that.

Thank all of you for the imput. SixTango


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~whiskey river rafting, hot tubbing, dirty dancing & spending money on - wild women - having fun & just gonna waste the rest~

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Re: Gallons Jars of Spawn [Re: SixTango]
    #844216 -

Something else to consider is the spawn rate you are using and also shaking. If you use a slightly higher spawn rate with lowered water content and shake at day 3 or 5 then maybe that would give you better results. Or some different combinations with those factors.
just my thoughts on this


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Re: Gallons Jars of Spawn [Re: Alkaloids]
    #844447 -

if one lacks a great grandmother with a penchant for preserves wheresabouts does one obtain 1 gallon canning jars?

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Re: Gallons Jars of Spawn [Re: ]
    #844560 -

Home brew supply stores usualy have them. 4 for around $8 usd.

SixTango


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~whiskey river rafting, hot tubbing, dirty dancing & spending money on - wild women - having fun & just gonna waste the rest~

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Re: Gallons Jars of Spawn [Re: SixTango]
    #845519 -

some type of preboil/presimmer couldn't hurt.

my friend just had a similar problem with birdseed bags in his pressure cooker. he was thinking that he might have packed his pressure cooker too tightly.

i have been told that the pressure gauges on many pressure cookers are woefully inaccurate.

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Re: Gallons Jars of Spawn [Re: trainboy55]
    #845522 -

Yo, the Raccoon soaks the seed around 18 hours, rinses & drains -- well. That has never failed him, except with 1 gallon jars. SixTango


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~whiskey river rafting, hot tubbing, dirty dancing & spending money on - wild women - having fun & just gonna waste the rest~

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Re: Gallons Jars of Spawn [Re: SixTango]
    #845527 -

it's possible that the gallon jars don't allow sufficient steam penetration during pressure cooking.

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Re: Gallons Jars of Spawn [Re: trainboy55]
    #845566 -

I agree with what mycofile has said.
I`ve found that with my jars that stop or slow colonisation and then suddenyl start up agaian, they start becoming overly wet as the 3 week or 4 week barrier has been breached.
Once you reach a month everything deffinatelly seems wetter.
Open the jars and sweet bacteria starts smelling up the house.
SO time is deffinately a factor.
Cure? pollyfill doesn`t supply enough gaseous exchange so I`m gessing filter disks will prolly be better.
Ultimatelly rather using more pint jars????

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Re: Gallons Jars of Spawn [Re: DERRAYLD]
    #846060 -

It's definitely not a problem with the jars themselves. Hundreds of pros use gallon jars everyday.

Filtration could be a problem. How big is the hole in the lid? I'd say for that size jar I'd use a good 1/2" hole or bigger.

And always, the bigger the jar and the more jars in the cooker, the longer you need to sterilize. I'd say 2 hour minimum with gallons.


--------------------
"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi

PM me with any cultivation questions.

I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.

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Re: Gallons / Jars of Spawn [Re: mycofile]
    #846559 -

Okay, the Raccoon is about to attempt them - again.

This time:

1. Lids will be prepped with two .... 1/2 inch hole / each.

2. Seed will be soaked 12 to 18 hours.

3. Seed will be rinsed & drained -- well.

4. Jars will be loaded about 3/4 full.

5. Jars will be slightly nuked to remove (steam out) a small % of the seeds moisture content.

6. Filter disk will be applied internaly & lids applied - left 1/4 turn loose).

7. Jars will be PC'ed 150 minutes @ 15 / 20 pounds.

(The Coon had the pressure gauge recalabrated / it was 10 % inaccurate).

8. Once PC'ed, jars will removed while still relativly hot & shaken.

9. Once cooled to room temp, seed to seed transfers under flow hood will be done w/ratio of about 1/2 pint of fully colonized seed to a 1 gallon jar.

10. Jars will be resealed & shaken to spread the colonized seed in them & the jars will be stored in a dark cabinet @ 78F.

Any comments or suggestions?

SixTango






--------------------
~whiskey river rafting, hot tubbing, dirty dancing & spending money on - wild women - having fun & just gonna waste the rest~

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Re: Gallons / Jars of Spawn [Re: SixTango]
    #846696 -

I didn't really mean 1/2" or bigger. I think 1/2" hole per lid should suffice.

Everything else sounds ok, but you aren't really solving the water content issue. When having trouble with any type of grain in my experience, your best bet is to precisely control moisture content. That means determining the "dry" grains moisture content, then adding only enough water to give a moisture content of around 45% for gallon jars.

Determine your moisture content of the "dry" grain by baking 100g in an oven at 250 for several hours. Re-weigh. Subtract weight 2 from weight 1. That's your moisture percentage.

Final moisture content of the spawn should be 40-60%. Around 50% being ideal, but size of container should be accounted for. 1/2 pt jars can deal with 60%, while oversized spawn bags should be about 40% moisture content.

It's all in TMC and GG&MM, and is my best advice for those having troubles with grain, esp. bacterial troubles.

If you like to precook, you still can. Simply put the correct ratios of grain and water in your jars. Put them on the rack in the cooker. Fill cooker with water about halfway up the jars. loosley cap jars and cover with foil. Bring water to a SLOW boil, then reduce to low. Remove caps and stir jars occasionally to keep wet/dry kernels mixed. Cook until the water is absorbed. Let sit overnight for endospores to hatch, then pc. That's a method I used regularly to get grain moisture perfect and I'm not sure if I ever shared it. I think I'll make a formal write up for it...


--------------------
"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi

PM me with any cultivation questions.

I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.

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Re: Gallons / Jars of Spawn [Re: mycofile]
    #846833 -

Thanks Mycofile..........

Okay, one half inch hole per lid.

The Raccoon will test the moisture content of presoaked seed, well rinsed & drained. Then, after those results are in: Will adjust accordingly attempting to get the moisture content around 45 / 50 %.

I will also let the loaded jars set overnight, prior to PC'ing. To let endospores germinate.

Precooking sounds like to much of a PITA. Since the soak does the trick of adding the moisture.

This is all sort of a oddity. Since I have quarts & half gallons down pat. I could just do "more" of them, rather than attempting this.

I am only doing this................ to see if I can. I guesss, I like a challenge.

SixTango


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~whiskey river rafting, hot tubbing, dirty dancing & spending money on - wild women - having fun & just gonna waste the rest~

Edited by SixTango (08/27/02 11:42 AM)

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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics > Advanced Mycology
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