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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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If a tree falls in the woods and nobody is around...
    #8189210 -

Does it make a sound?


--------------------
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing

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Re: If a tree falls in the woods and nobody is around... [Re: Cracka_X]
    #8189222 -

Why wouldn't it?

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Re: If a tree falls in the woods and nobody is around... [Re: Cracka_X]
    #8189227 -

It does. It sounds like *thud* , and possibly even a couple of *crack* and some birds fleeing ( *flurt flurt* )

I never really understood what was so interesting about that question. It always sounded like chinese cracker philosophy to me.

Edited by TypicalTripper (03/24/08 10:50 PM)

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Re: If a tree falls in the woods and nobody is around... [Re: truffleupagus]
    #8189229 -

It releases energy in the form of sound

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Re: If a tree falls in the woods and nobody is around... [Re: Cracka_X]
    #8189230 -

Yes.


--------------------

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Re: If a tree falls in the woods and nobody is around... [Re: Cracka_X]
    #8189276 -

do you really think that there are no other animals near enough to the tree, considering it is probably around other trees (like a forest), that would hear it?


--------------------
channel your inner Larry David

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Re: If a tree falls in the woods and nobody is around... [Re: demiu5]
    #8189288 -

sound is vibrations. When the tree falls its gives of vibrations, therefore it gives off sound.

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Re: If a tree falls in the woods and nobody is around... [Re: Cracka_X]
    #8189292 -

No, it does not, without some sentient life to receive the vibrations and translate them into sound. The alternative answer 'yes' is merely one's imagination projected into the situation. Sound requires the subjective pole of experience. All that occurs is the kinetic energy and molecular displacement. Sound is the result of vibrations on a receiving instrument, even a mechanical receiving instrument, which must then, necessarily, be listened to by a sentient being or else only variations on a recording medium are present. Even once removed from direct perceception, no sound exists until the recording device is actually listened to. Only potential sound exists, it is not actual sound until heard.

Read 'Schrodinger's Cat.'

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Re: If a tree falls in the woods and nobody is around... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #8189319 -

Actually, this age old question can easily be settled by placing a tape recorder in the woods.

Everyone can go home now. Shows over!

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Re: If a tree falls in the woods and nobody is around... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #8189323 -

You are incorrect by definition, Markos:

Quote:
Sound (most relevant definitions)

1. Vibrations transmitted through an elastic solid or a liquid or gas, with frequencies in the approximate range of 20 to 20,000 hertz, capable of being detected by human organs of hearing.
2. Transmitted vibrations of any frequency.
3. The sensation stimulated in the organs of hearing by such vibrations in the air or other medium.
4. Such sensations considered as a group.




What you are talking about is definition "3," above, which is quite clearly not the sole and single meaning of the word. Obviously, if a tree falls it will create vibrations, and thus SOUND.

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Re: If a tree falls in the woods and nobody is around... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #8189328 -

if a hermit dies in the woods and nobody ever finds him or realizes he is gone... does he really die?


--------------------
Whether you believe you can or believe you cant, either way you're probably right.

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Re: If a tree falls in the woods and nobody is around... [Re: Veritas]
    #8189352 -

Veritas said:
You are incorrect by definition, Markos:

Quote:
Sound (most relevant definitions)

  1. Vibrations transmitted through an elastic solid or a liquid or gas, with frequencies in the approximate range of 20 to 20,000 hertz, capable of being detected by human organs of hearing.
  2. Transmitted vibrations of any frequency.
  3. The sensation stimulated in the organs of hearing by such vibrations in the air or other medium.
  4. Such sensations considered as a group.




What you are talking about is definition "3," above, which is quite clearly not the sole and single meaning of the word.  Obviously, if a tree falls it will create vibrations, and thus SOUND.

  Sounds good to me, if definitely makes a sound.  If you choose to define sound as the perception of the compression wave, then it doesnt.  Either way there is no ambiguity, and the question is only meaningful in the sense that it makes us analyze our definitions.




EDIT-
Quote:
Read 'Schrodinger's Cat.'

  :rolleyes: please... that has nothing to do with this situation...  I think you should review your quantum theory.

Edited by Qubit (03/24/08 11:15 PM)

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Re: If a tree falls in the woods and nobody is around... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #8189359 -

Markos, although you make an interesting argument, the fact remains that animals can hear things too. So unless this was some kind of wasteland forest with nothing living in it, then of course there is some creature to hear the tree, and of course it makes a sound.

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Re: If a tree falls in the woods and nobody is around... [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #8189399 -

It has nothing to do with animals. Veritas hit the nail on the head, the definition of sound revolves around vibrations. If an organism picks up those vibrations or not is irrelevant. There are sounds on places like Venus where there is no organism, but there is vibrations.

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Re: If a tree falls in the woods and nobody is around... [Re: Veritas]
    #8189409 -

The question implies that there is more to sound than what is objectively apparent. Otherwise, kind of a silly question eh?


--------------------
Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
  The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
  The frumious Bandersnatch!

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Re: If a tree falls in the woods and nobody is around... [Re: biggysmall]
    #8189413 -

biggysmall said:
sound is vibrations. When the tree falls its gives of vibrations, therefore it gives off sound.


The questions never asks if anyone heard/witnessed the sound, but if it produced a sound.


--------------------
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing

Edited by Cracka_X (03/24/08 11:40 PM)

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Re: If a tree falls in the woods and nobody is around... [Re: Cracka_X]
    #8189504 -

DieCommie said:
Veritas hit the nail on the head, the definition of sound revolves around vibrations.


This presumes that what we define sound as is actually what we experience as sound.

Compared to other senses, the objective and subjective seem to agree quite well in this case. Vibrations right? When you listen to a deep base note you can hear the oscillations. What sounds like a series of blips... but what makes up these blips? Another, and another, and another series of blips. All sound actually is is these blips, but we have no idea what these blips actually are. All we "know" is the wavelike nature, or the relativity of these particles which we in turn relate to.

Definition requires substance, which definition always lacks. :shrug: I hope you can see how this relates to the argument.


--------------------
Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
  The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
  The frumious Bandersnatch!

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Re: If a tree falls in the woods and nobody is around... [Re: Cracka_X]
    #8189523 -

I thought it goes like this...

The tree is in superposition until a "concious" being stumbles upon the scene. Then intention can be factored in. I thought an observer was needed to colapes the wave function, and birds are not concious observers, even the bird and its reactions should remain in superposition waiting to be collapesed.

We are the variable arn't we.

And the question should be " If a tree falls in a forest when I am gone, did it ever fall except until I got there, collapsing superposition into a probable "past" event, and if a diffrent person (or intent) was present, would the outcome have been the same?"

Please correct me if needs be,1 1/2 years of high school is far from qualified.

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Re: If a tree falls in the woods and nobody is around... [Re: Mr_Spliff]
    #8189536 -

yea I was just gonna say...


--------------------
Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
  The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
  The frumious Bandersnatch!

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: If a tree falls in the woods and nobody is around... [Re: daytripper23]
    #8189555 -

"If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?"

-From Wiki
(how fitting)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If_a_tree_falls_in_a_forest

Cracka, should we assume that this is the original question or were you just trying to confuse us?


--------------------
Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
  The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
  The frumious Bandersnatch!

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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