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Re: Was civilization a mistake? [Re: Veritas]
    #7964734 -

Normally functioning genes do not always function perfectly.


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Once the sin against God was the greatest sin; but God has died, and those sinners died with him. To sin against the earth is now the most dreadful sin, and to esteem the entrails of the unknowable higher than the meaning of the earth!

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Re: Was civilization a mistake? [Re: Ubermensch]
    #7964779 -

Can we please not derail this thread with an argument over the precise technical details of how cancer is caused? It isn't exactly the most relevant or interest direction this subject can go.

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Re: Was civilization a mistake? [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7965223 -

Only from a human perspective can we say that this society type civilization is a mistake.

When in fact if we are a mistake, all life is a mistake.

We are unique.

Peace,
Droz


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Evolution of Time.

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Re: Was civilization a mistake? [Re: Droz]
    #7965224 -

The TV was a mistake.


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Re: Was civilization a mistake? [Re: Droz]
    #7965265 -

Droz said:
Only from a human perspective can we say that this society type civilization is a mistake.

When in fact if we are a mistake, all life is a mistake.



Peace,
Droz


:thumbup:


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Was civilization a mistake? [Re: Droz]
    #7965502 -

Droz said:
Only from a human perspective can we say that this society type civilization is a mistake.

When in fact if we are a mistake, all life is a mistake.

We are unique.

Peace,
Droz


This is totally meaningless.
Only from a human perspective can we say anything at all, considering we're human. Does that mean we should stop thinking?

Besides, I have a feeling that if plants and animals could weigh in with thier own perspective, many of them would probably be critical of civilization as well, since they're on the losing team pretty much every time they encounter it.

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Re: Was civilization a mistake? [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7965607 -

What seems meaningless to me is to ask if civilization was a mistake. As if we had a choice in the matter and as if we could choose now. Civilization is as human as our brains.


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Was civilization a mistake? [Re: Icelander]
    #7965939 -

Sure, I agree that it's a bit of a pointless question considering we can't exactly take it back. But let's pretend I titled the thread something else.

If we start our discourse with the fatalistic view that things are not going to change no matter what, then it binds our thinking within predetermined confines. It becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. If we begin our discourse with no holds barred, with the willingness to engage in critical analysis of everything, then it frees up a lot of wiggle room in which to figure out how we really want to live and what options truly exist. Frankly, I don't think it's possible to really have a grasp of what our authentic options are unless we are willing to critically analyse even those institutions and ideologies we take for granted the most. Refusing to think critically about something because 'that's just how it is' is a lazy cop out and nothing more.

Quote:
Civilization is as human as our brains.



Sure. But on that token [rape, racism, child abuse] is as human as our brains. What's your point?

Edited by NiamhNyx (02/01/08 05:54 PM)

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Re: Was civilization a mistake? [Re: Icelander]
    #7965950 -

I often like to think of the example of Easter Island as a metaphor for humanity as a whole. One time rich in vegetation, animals, and resources, the isolated island cut down every last tree for their famous Moai statues, heat, and shelter. After food became scarce, the tribes of the island began killing each other over what little remained and often resorted to cannibalism. About 100 years after the wars began, a new equilibrium was reached by the population. Though only a fraction of the 12,000 people at the peak of the island's existance lived there now, they were able to find a sustainable way of life.

It was a great mystery to the Europeans how an island with no trees, few fish, birds and other animals and only a couple thousand inhabitants could produce such magnificant statues. Some as large as 40ft tall weighing a max of almost 80 tons. These statues litter the island, some smashed and turned over, some standing strong. What was their purpose and how and who built them? After the Dutch discovered the island in the 1700's, genocide, slavery and syphalis spread through the island's 2,000 or so inhabitants and brought about the end for most of the island's original inhabitants, but the mystery remained.

As our society becomes more and more globalized into a single "truth" of consumerism and monetary wealth, I can't help but reflect on what will be left after a new sustainable equilibrium is reached for our population. Peak oil is a truth of the world, society cannot continue down this path of self destruction. Inevitably we will look upon the desolation we have created and rise against our own culture. After a long period of hardships, war, famine, disease, a sustainable equilibrium will be reached. This population of perhaps 500million people or a billion will wonder how on earth we completed some of the most monumental tasks of our time.

The sercophogas at chernobyl. The panama cannel, and the many cities that scatter across the earth may be reclaimed by the earth eventually, but more likely will stand as a testimate to our over achievement and over zealous ambitions. I truely believe that the meek that will inherit the earth and eventually re-explore our planet. These great mysteries of modern engineering and production will stand just as the Moai statutes at Easter Island. Looking over what has gone awry.

I don't believe we can ever completely destroy ourselves. Humanity is too creative, innovated and determined to ever completely wipe itself out, but we might get pretty damn close.



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I was pessimistic in my youth. Now I can just follow the Toronto Raptors.

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Re: Was civilization a mistake? [Re: Ole Field Trashe]
    #7966046 -

I don't think that we can think of civilization as being either right, or wrong in any conventional sense. It is what it is, and we have to look forward into finding real solutions to the problems humanity is about to face rather than looking to the past to see what might have happened if...


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I was pessimistic in my youth. Now I can just follow the Toronto Raptors.

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Re: Was civilization a mistake? [Re: Ole Field Trashe]
    #7966148 -

I agree with you. But I don't think that thinking critically about a form of social organization is the same as looking into the past and wondering 'what if.' It's looking into the past and wondering 'what happened? how did we develop in the direction we did? what other ways have people chosen to develop?' And then coming back to the present and asking 'what is worth keeping and what ought to be rejected? how can we apply the insights we've gained from studying the diverse ways people have lived in other times and places to our current situation?' It isn't so much a matter of 'going back' as it is realizing we don't necessarily have to invent something brand new every time we face a challenge. Obviously it would be silly to say "ok, so our culture completely sucks, so let's just all adopt !Kung culture right here and now and everything will be fine." No one in thier right mind would think this is even remotely possible. That's not the point. But sometimes other people have already come up with good ways of dealing with certain specific issues, and we can mine thier wisdom and apply it to our own situation.

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Re: Was civilization a mistake? [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7966201 -

No politician will openly say, "Look, society is fucked. In order to preserve our planet and humanity, we need to do a total review what we are doing. Simple luxuries of life such as electricity, the free market system, and basic human rights are going to be ammended for the global effort. In order to preserve our beliefs and knowledge that we have accumulated throughout history we need to make tough choices. These choices will determine who can life and who will die."

the majority of the world will be kept blind of the impending problems, until they cannot be denied from first hand experiance of many of the populations. The problems of humanity's impact on the world are just beginning to be seen, and still they are being utterly denied.

i'm pretty sure we are far more likely to see war on a near apocolypical level to determine who will live and die. It will be an "us" versus "them" problem before a revamping of human behavior.


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I was pessimistic in my youth. Now I can just follow the Toronto Raptors.

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Re: Was civilization a mistake? [Re: Ole Field Trashe]
    #7966309 -

Of course we aren't going to hear a politician say anything like that, but as free agents we are welcome to develop our own thinking. One could even argue that the total uselessness of politicians is an excellent argument in favor of developing our thinking beyond the weak, non-critical norm. I share your sentiment: it probably will get much worse before people open thier eyes and realize how serious it is. But don't you think it's better if at that point people at least some people have already thought about things and have some good ideas on the burner? There is a breaking point in any society at which people are no longer willing to put up with the state of affairs as they are and revolt. I like to think that if it actually came down to war on an apocalyptic level, that there would be a significant counter-movement of resisters who, in the least, refused to participate in it.

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Re: Was civilization a mistake? [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7966425 -

NiamhNyx said:
But don't you think it's better if at that point people at least some people have already thought about things and have some good ideas on the burner? There is a breaking point in any society at which people are no longer willing to put up with the state of affairs as they are and revolt. I like to think that if it actually came down to war on an apocalyptic level, that there would be a significant counter-movement of resisters who, in the least, refused to participate in it.


Ideas such as? Solar power? Hippy living? 86% of energy use in the world is still comming from fossil fuels. We can't just replace all the energy we are using with wind power, and hydro electric. There will be a global energy crisis on a unprecidented scale. Most people don't want to give up the standard of living that we have grown accustomed to. But things like new cars, television, imported pommagrantes in supermarkets and other blatent misuses of resources will become more and more expensive in the market system, until they are allocated to only the richest people in the world while the rest of us die of starvation.

Don't get me wrong. People don't like war. But if the government would likely, at least internally say, "Hey, look, we are going to have half the people in america starve in the coming decade because food prices will increase 10 fold and most people cannot afford to pay. So, we are going to use some of our military arsonal to destroy china and india to ease the global food demand. Sorry about the radiation, but it needs to be done. The alternative is all politician being lynched for misleading the public, utter chaos, destruction and rioting that hasn't been seen before.

Of course the publisiced reasons would be human rights abuses, terrorism, etc etc whatever.

Its a much easier sell to the public to say that china is misusing all the resources of earth and polluting, so we must kill them all and re-appropriate their resources to america then having the problems that come along with poverty (crime,corruption,social unrest,violence) effect not just the bottom 50% of the population of a country, but everyone that needs to live society.

The politicians attempt will destroy other countries and harvest their resources before they severly alter our way of life.


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I was pessimistic in my youth. Now I can just follow the Toronto Raptors.

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Re: Was civilization a mistake? [Re: Ole Field Trashe]
    #7966500 -

Reading stuff like that makes me want to move.

Seriously though, I would reserve judgment on just how doomed we are... maybe I'm an optimist but I feel like Americans are slowly becoming more aware of the iniquities inherent to our system. The Internet plays a large role. Maybe I'm projecting my own growing awareness of it onto other people, but I don't know, I'm kinda young. Correct me, anyone?


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Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


Edited by Tchan909 (02/01/08 08:29 PM)

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Re: Was civilization a mistake? [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7967240 -

I think that the biggest loss created by advanced civilization is the sense of being part of a tribe.  We evolved within small social groups, in which everyone was known & the survival of the individual clearly depended upon the other members of the tribe.

Now, though our individual survival in the long term still depends upon the many, many members of our "tribe," the distance and disconnection between the individuals obscures this knowledge.  We start to believe that we, alone, are responsible for our survival--no one else will help us.  This fosters a sense of greed, avarice & mistrust.  We're all "out for #1," with little or no sense of the bigger picture.

In capitalist societies, we attempt to recreate the security of belonging to a tribe by accumulating belongings and power.  My guess is that this does not work (though I have not accumulated either belongings OR power :tongue:).  We still search for the sense of security which can only result from knowing that other people will help you if you need it--that you do not shoulder the responsibilities of this life alone--and that those people will take care of you, not because you pay them, but because they are committed to you.

My observations on this theory over the past several years have led me to start researching co-housing communities.  The idea of purposefully joining a tribal group has great appeal for me, and it seems that these groups are of the same mind.  What do you think about the idea of combining civilization with primativism, and taking the best from both?

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Re: Was civilization a mistake? [Re: Veritas]
    #7967609 -

:werd: the bay area is amazing for co housing. cant wait to move back


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omg really?

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Re: Was civilization a mistake? [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7967818 -

Refusing to think critically about something because 'that's just how it is' is a lazy cop out and nothing more.

Who says I haven't thought critically about this. I've been considering this question longer than you have been alive most likely.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Was civilization a mistake? [Re: Icelander]
    #7969146 -

That's very likely. I don't mean to suggest that you haven't thought critically about it. But I encounter a LOT of people who begin and end thier thinking with "we're fucked, what's the point?" That is totally lame.

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Re: Was civilization a mistake? [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7972213 -

me, im a dreamer. a wanderer. i hope for a better future. im the change that i want to see.


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omg really?

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