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Who thinks we can win in Iraq?
    #7359082 -

I'm talking about total and complete victory. A peaceful democratic nation with a Bill of Rights guaranteeing freedom of religion the same as we have here in the States. The role of Islam is written in to the Iraqi constitution. Is this acceptable in a free nation??? I think not.

Even the civilian Republican leadership thinks this is unattainable. The military leadership wants a situation of peace where they're not getting shot up. No one really believes that the Sunni and Shia factions will ever get along without a strong man style dictator such as Saddam Hussein was.

The progress being made, more peaceful neighborhoods is largely the result of ethnic cleansing being successful in those areas. There are no longer Sunni and Shia neighbors. There are Shia only neighborhoods and Sunni only neighborhoods. The larger civil war that the US military is trying to quell is still ongoing, and no faction wants the foreign military presence there. Unbiased surveys from Zogby show that more than half of all Iraqis want us gone and more than 25% of all Iraqis think it's morally ok to kill American military.

The Iraqi government does not execute central authority outside of Baghdad. In fact, the Iraqi Intelligence Service is not even run by Iraqis, it is entirely a CIA operation. The Iraqi military is a joke. We've been hearing for years that Iraqi brigades will replace American units. It's always just a few months away.

There is no winning in Iraq. There is just continuing this destructive conflict. The Iraqi people are largely united against us. That's the thing all the militias have in common, they all hate America now.


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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

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Re: Who thinks we can win in Iraq? [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #7359120 -

"Can" or "could"?

I believe we could win if we went about it the right way. But I don't think we are willing to pay the cost, so we'll keep half-assing it until we give up, sometime in January of 2009.


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Roger Rabbit said: Growing mushrooms is part art, and part science, but it's not magic.

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Re: Who thinks we can win in Iraq? [Re: Dr_T]
    #7359602 -

Nope, the only way to change someone's culture or way of life in one generation is with a bullet.


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Hi  :scrambled:

My god... it's full of stars...

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Re: Who thinks we can win in Iraq? [Re: StrandedVoyager]
    #7359668 -

Or with a lot of TV.

But yeah, we were in Japan and Germany for 50 years, I don't see success in Iraq in less time than that.


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Roger Rabbit said: Growing mushrooms is part art, and part science, but it's not magic.

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Re: Who thinks we can win in Iraq? [Re: Dr_T]
    #7359688 -

one thing that bothers me is that the president and his lackey's never define what victory is. Bush gives speeches saying we need to stay untill victory, but never says what that means. Seems to be an endless engagment to me.

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Re: Who thinks we can win in Iraq? [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #7359693 -

You can't make a fractious and backwards people bring about a stable democracy.  It just isn't going to happen.  :shrug:

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Re: Who thinks we can win in Iraq? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #7360072 -

"win" hehe.. i think it's a bit more complicated than that. No one came in and saved us from England, and handed us our constitution, we bled and died for our freedom. So no, i don't think we can ever win because the entire philosophy behind forced/given democracy is bs.

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Re: Who thinks we can win in Iraq? [Re: BlackPsmyth]
    #7360090 -

BlackPsmyth said:
"win" hehe.. i think it's a bit more complicated than that. No one came in and saved us from England, and handed us our constitution, we bled and died for our freedom. So no, i don't think we can ever win because the entire philosophy behind forced/given democracy is bs.


True to an extent, though we did liberate them from saddam- its in their hands now. I do feel bad for turning the country into such an unstable hellhole, but I think if we left the perception of the people that they were being occupied by a hostile power will be diminished, and hopefully the violence will recede as well.

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Re: Who thinks we can win in Iraq? [Re: BlackPsmyth]
    #7360857 -

BlackPsmyth said:
No one came in and saved us from England,


France did.
The constitution was our doing, but we couldn't have gotten to that point on our own.


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Roger Rabbit said: Growing mushrooms is part art, and part science, but it's not magic.

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Re: Who thinks we can win in Iraq? [Re: Dr_T]
    #7360882 -

you cannot fight an idea. Plain and simple.

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Re: Who thinks we can win in Iraq? [Re: Dr_T]
    #7360886 -

There`s a cynical, if facetious, side to me that wonders whether this isn`t what the Middle East has been waiting for: the grand daddy of flashpoints to wade into. Everybody`s having a ball down there, ya know? Why rock the boat with misleading terminology such as "victory" and "war"?

"Aint nuttin` but an Arab party!
A motherfuckin` Arab party!"

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Re: Who thinks we can win in Iraq? [Re: johnm214]
    #7361416 -

---

Edited by EntheogenicPeace (12/17/16 02:40 PM)

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Re: Who thinks we can win in Iraq? [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #7361457 -

What sort of unbiased polls show that the majority Shiite population thought a minority-run dictatorship was popular?

To answer the question in the main post: no, I do not believe we can win.

Edited by Redstorm (09/02/07 11:36 AM)

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Re: Who thinks we can win in Iraq? [Re: Redstorm]
    #7361490 -

---

Edited by EntheogenicPeace (12/17/16 02:41 PM)

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Re: Who thinks we can win in Iraq? [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #7361559 -

Entheogenic,

Saddam was a bad man who did bad things. I'm aware of our prior realtionship with him (the USA's) and the american responsibility for his actions.

The above, as well as the prior leaders, doesn't change the fact that he was not a good leader.

I don't think we should have invaded, but we did. Saddaam was not a man who should have been in power, and just cuz we were in the wrong to overthrow him does not change the fact that he was a bad person.

Clearly the country as a whole would be better off if saddam was still there- and I'm sure america would be better off. Saddam kept a better handle on radical islamists than we have done so far.

I was just trying to point out about the only positive thing that came out of the invasion- though ultimatly for the worse anyways.

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Re: Who thinks we can win in Iraq? [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #7361800 -

EntheogenicPeace said:
Wasn't refering to the Ba'ath Party dictatorship... that's the one the U.S. put into power decades ago.


Ahhhhh yes, the myth of the omnipotent CIA. Completely in control of everything that goes on on the world. Except when CIA incompetence is more useful to the argument.

Can we win? We already have.


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Re: Who thinks we can win in Iraq? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7361891 -

How have we won? Do you mean by taking over the country?

Anyways zappa, what do you propose we do? Now that we've won can we leave? Please?

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Re: Who thinks we can win in Iraq? [Re: johnm214]
    #7361957 -

Nope. We need to help them stabilize just like we did in Europe and Japan, both of which have worked out fairly well and to our everlasting benefit. The nations we abandoned didn't do so well. See all of Eastern Europe for 50 years. See the massacres in Vietnam..


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Re: Who thinks we can win in Iraq? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7362011 -

---

Edited by EntheogenicPeace (12/17/16 02:42 PM)

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Re: Who thinks we can win in Iraq? [Re: johnm214]
    #7362022 -

johnm214 said:
True to an extent, though we did liberate them from saddam-


Lol


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Hi  :scrambled:

My god... it's full of stars...

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