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OfflineGod_Killer
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Registered: 04/03/01
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Republic or democracy
    #559742 - 02/22/02 03:36 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Heres something I copied/pasted from the link in my sig. What do you pinko commies think?


REPUBLIC vs. DEMOCRACY
I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
In the Pledge of Allegiance we all pledge allegiance to our Republic, not to a democracy. "Republic" is the proper description of our government, not "democracy." I invite you to join me in raising public awareness regarding that distinction.
The distinction between our Republic and a democracy is not an idle one. It has great legal significance.

The Constitution guarantees to every state a Republican form of government (Art. 4, Sec. 4). No state may join the United States unless it is a Republic. Our Republic is one dedicated to "liberty and justice for all." Minority individual rights are the priority. The people have natural rights instead of civil rights. The people are protected by the Bill of Rights from the majority. One vote in a jury can stop all of the majority from depriving any one of the people of his rights; this would not be so if the United States were a democracy. (see People's rights vs Citizens' rights)

In a pure democracy 51 beats 49[%]. In a democracy there is no such thing as a significant minority: there are no minority rights except civil rights (privileges) granted by a condescending majority. Only five of the U.S. Constitution's first ten amendments apply to Citizens of the United States. Simply stated, a democracy is a dictatorship of the majority. Socrates was executed by a democracy: though he harmed no one, the majority found him intolerable.


SOME DICTIONARY DEFINITIONS
Government. ....the government is but an agency of the state, distinguished as it must be in accurate thought from its scheme and machinery of government. ....In a colloquial sense, the United States or its representatives, considered as the prosecutor in a criminal action; as in the phrase, "the government objects to the witness." [Black's Law Dictionary, Fifth Edition, p. 625]

Government; Republican government. One in which the powers of sovereignty are vested in the people and are exercised by the people, either directly, or through representatives chosen by the people, to whome those powers are specially delegated. In re Duncan, 139 U.S. 449, 11 S.Ct. 573, 35 L.Ed. 219; Minor v. Happersett, 88 U.S. (21 Wall.) 162, 22 L.Ed. 627. [Black's Law Dictionary, Fifth Edition, p. 626]

Democracy. That form of government in which the sovereign power resides in and is exercised by the whole body of free citizens directly or indirectly through a system of representation, as distinguished from a monarchy, aristocracy, or oligarchy. Black's Law Dictionary, Fifth Edition, pp. 388-389.

Note: Black's Law Dictionary, Fifth Edition, can be found in any law library and most law offices.


COMMENTS
Notice that in a Democracy, the sovereignty is in the whole body of the free citizens. The sovereignty is not divided to smaller units such as individual citizens. To solve a problem, only the whole body politic is authorized to act. Also, being citizens, individuals have duties and obligations to the government. The government's only obligations to the citizens are those legislatively pre-defined for it by the whole body politic.

In a Republic, the sovereignty resides in the people themselves, whether one or many. In a Republic, one may act on his own or through his representatives as he chooses to solve a problem. Further, the people have no obligation to the government; instead, the government being hired by the people, is obliged to its owner, the people.

The people own the government agencies. The government agencies own the citizens. In the United States we have a three-tiered cast system consisting of people ---> government agencies ---> and citizens.

The people did "ordain and establish this Constitution," not for themselves, but "for the United States of America." In delegating powers to the government agencies the people gave up none of their own. (See Preamble of U.S. Constitution). This adoption of this concept is why the U.S. has been called the "Great Experiment in self government." The People govern themselves, while their agents (government agencies) perform tasks listed in the Preamble for the benefit of the People. The experiment is to answer the question, "Can self-governing people coexist and prevail over government agencies that have no authority over the People?"

The citizens of the United States are totally subject to the laws of the United States (See 14th Amendment of U.S. Constitution). NOTE: U.S. citizenship did not exist until July 28, 1868.

Actually, the United States is a mixture of the two systems of government (Republican under Common Law, and democratic under statutory law). The People enjoy their God-given natural rights in the Republic. In a democracy, the Citizens enjoy only government granted privileges (also known as civil rights).

There was a great political division between two major philosophers, Hobbes and Locke. Hobbes was on the side of government. He believed that sovereignty was vested in the state. Locke was on the side of the People. He believed that the fountain of sovereignty was the People of the state. Statists prefer Hobbes. Populists choose Locke. In California, the Government Code sides with Locke. Sections 11120 and 54950 both say, "The people of this State do not yield their sovereignty to the agencies which serve them." The preambles of the U.S. and California Constitutions also affirm the choice of Locke by the People.

It is my hope that the U.S. will always remain a Republic, because I value individual freedom.

Thomas Jefferson said that liberty and ignorance cannot coexist.* Will you help to preserve minority rights by fulfilling the promise in the Pledge of Allegiance to support the Republic? Will you help by raising public awareness of the difference between the Republic and a democracy?



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

* "If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization,
it expects what never was and never will be."
Thomas Jefferson, 1816.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


--------------------
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Offlinemm.
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Re: Republic or democracy [Re: God_Killer]
    #559846 - 02/22/02 05:10 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

i dont see the difference myself but hey, i can do the same, what do you bible-bashing redneck nazis think?

                    The man 

Of virtuous soul commands not, nor obeys:
Power, like a desolating pestilence,
Pollutes whate'er it touches, and obedience,
Bane of all genius, virtue, freedom, truth,
Makes slaves of men, and, of the human frame,
A mechanised automaton.
--Shelley




"Do you want to make it impossible for anyone to oppress his fellow-man? Then make sure that no one shall possess power."

"The term anarchy comes from the Greek, and essentially means 'no ruler.' Anarchists are people who reject all forms of government or coercive authority, all forms of hierarchy and domination. They are therefore opposed to what the Mexican anarchist Flores Magon called the 'sombre trinity' -- state, capital and the church. Anarchists are thus opposed to both capitalism and to the state, as well as to all forms of religious authority. But anarchists also seek to establish or bring about by varying means, a condition of anarchy, that is, a decentralised society without coercive institutions, a society organised through a federation of voluntary associations."

"Anarchism proposes to rescue the self-respect and independence of the individual from all restraint and invasion by authority. Only in freedom can man grow to his full stature. Only in freedom will he learn to think and move, and give the very best of himself. Only in freedom will we realise the true force of the social bonds which tie us together, and which are the true foundations of a normal social life."

"Change opinion, convince the public that government is not only unnecessary, but extremely harmful, and then the word anarchy, just because it means absence of government, will come to mean for everybody: natural order, unity of human needs and the interests of all, complete freedom within complete solidarity."



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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
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Registered: 02/09/01
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Re: Republic or democracy [Re: God_Killer]
    #560189 - 02/22/02 10:51 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

republic.....however the libbies and republicrates turned it into a democracy...democracy is mob rule


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineGod_Killer
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Registered: 04/03/01
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Last seen: 14 years, 1 month
Re: Republic or democracy [Re: mm.]
    #560509 - 02/23/02 11:11 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Hey man, When I called ya'all pinko commies it was in the nicest possible context.

Also did you mean Bible bashing redneck nazi(what you said) or bible thumping redneck nazi. There is a difference ya know :smile:

Personally, I lost all intrest in anarchy when I figured out it meant  that I wouldn't get to rape, pillage and plunder at will.

I've never been able to figure out a senario where anarchism would actually work. At least in world where redneck nuts like me are still dragin our nuckles in everybodies way. Seems like no matter how hard you try and keep from it there are always going to situations where communities/individuals disagree and then ya start fallin right back into that damn government thing again.

I do see that it "could" be possible to have a well run republic of free men and women.  We'd probably have to kill a bunch of the pinko commie fags first though.

I'm not entirely sure how ya don't see the difference in a  republic and a democracy. I believe the author did a pretty good job pointing them out.

Anyways don't be to offended too much by the redneck nazi shit I say. I'm only half serious when I talk about killin you commies and what not :smile: 


--------------------
Beer is proof that god loves us and wants us to be happy.-Benjamin Franklin


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OfflineGod_Killer
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Re: Republic or democracy [Re: Innvertigo]
    #560511 - 02/23/02 11:13 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

"democracy is mob rule"

I agree.





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Beer is proof that god loves us and wants us to be happy.-Benjamin Franklin


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Offlinemm.
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Re: Republic or democracy [Re: God_Killer]
    #560632 - 02/23/02 02:23 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

hey i was only joking, np
I can see the difference between a republic and democracy, it's just that it doesnt amount to much in practice. Power inevitably corrupts, so if you bestow on people the right to tell others what to do, it is going to lead to exploitation and repression. As far as we know we are the only part of the universe that is aware of it's own existence, and we are so scared of the responsibility that bestows upon us that at every opportunity we seek to hand over our freedom and become a cog in someone elses machine.

Anarchy is quite an idealistic notion, and obviously it couldnt be instituted overnight. It relies on the idea that people are inherently good, and it is only the current hierarchical society which has corrupted them. People would need to be totally reconditioned and all new children born given a completely different set of expectations. It requires a huge amount of responsibility from the individual, but in return bestows complete freedom. Imagine a society where you could best benefit yourself by doing things that benefit society as a whole. By cooperating with others you create a more harmonious environment for yourself. Once people get into that way of thinking there would be no lawlessnes and random violence, because no-one would gain anything from such action. At the moment because people are opressed and dominated, it is often beneficial for them to fight against the system. Obviously a better system is one in which the individual's and societies motives are in alignment.  This sort of state is termed Eudamonia - the highest state of happiness for the indiviual is acheived by working for the best benefit of everyone.

"If you can discover a better way of life than office-holding
for your future rulers, a well-governed city becomes a possibility.
For only in such a state will those rule who are truly rich, not
in gold, but in the wealth that makes happiness--a good and wise
life."
        -- Plato,
          "The Republic"

   


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OfflineGod_Killer
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Registered: 04/03/01
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Last seen: 14 years, 1 month
Re: Republic or democracy [Re: mm.]
    #560672 - 02/23/02 03:25 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

i agree that anarchy is a nice thought but the whole problem lies in the fact that this philosophy must rely on an inherent goodness in people. I really don't believe that deep down people are all that good. I could be wrong though.







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Beer is proof that god loves us and wants us to be happy.-Benjamin Franklin


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Anonymous

Re: Republic or democracy [Re: mm.]
    #560680 - 02/23/02 03:36 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Good points, mm. All power corrupts and all governments no matter how small
they are to start, inevitably grow and destroy freedom. This is the nature of the
beast. This is why Thomas Jefferson was of the sentiment that there should be
a revolution about every 20 years. However, knowing the envious nature of a great
many people and the widespread tendancy of people to want to create their own
versions of utopia at the expense of their fellow man prompts me to doubt that
periodic revolutions are of themselves a good thing.

My wife and I are raising our 2 children to have a healthy disrespect for anyone
or anything that cannot earn or deserve respect. We also try as much as possible
propogate the concepts that support individual sovereignty among any who will open
their minds.


'I heartily accept the motto, - "That government is best which governs least;" and I
should like to see it acted up to more rapidly and systematically. Carried out, it finally
amounts to this, which also I believe, - "That government is best which governs not
at all;" and when men are prepared for it, that will be the kind of government which
they will have.'
----- Henry David Thoreau (On the Duty of Civil Disobedience)


Edited by Anonymous (02/23/02 03:39 PM)


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OfflineToTheSummit
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Re: Republic or democracy [Re: God_Killer]
    #567082 - 03/01/02 06:29 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Democracy is mob rule and mob rule never ended in anything good. Give me a representative republic anyday.

And as for anarchy, there is a great line from a Dead Kennedy's song ("where do ya draw the line") that goes- "Anarchy sounds good to me til someone asks 'who'll fix the sewers'...or would the rednecks just play king-of-the-neighborhood?" Man is a selfish and often violent animal and we need some sort of social structure to keep us in check, like it or not.


--------------------
You invented the wheel....You push the motherfucker!!


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InvisibleAgent Cooper
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Registered: 08/04/00
Posts: 210
Loc: right behind you
Re: Republic or democracy [Re: ToTheSummit]
    #570099 - 03/05/02 01:36 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

"All that once was directly lived has become mere representation." ~ Guy Debord

In my opinion, the closer decision-making processes are to those who are effected by the decisions, the better. Representative democracy is an elitist ideology that
largely erases the decision-making power from the individual and his or her community/workplace. Power is in the hands of some politician who is essentially removed from those that he or she is supposed to represent. The higher up in the hierarchial pyramid the politician is seated, the further he is removed from the citizens. The effect is citizen alienation, disempowerment of communities, and a largely self-concerned, bureaucratic state.

Would direct democracy (anarchism) result in so-called "mob rule/tyranny of the majority" over the individual? Depends on the framework, really. If free association, self-management, and decentralization are the praxis and pillars of a community, then individuality would be protected. For example, during the Spanish Revolution (the largest anarchist experiment), those who did not wish to collectivize their farmland with everyone else did not have to - they simply did not participate and they were content dealing with themselves and those of similar persuasion. In a representive democracy, this autonomy of the individual is not permitted. What happens to those who refuse to pay income taxes or who cultivate marijuana? Majority rule at the expense of the individual is extremely common in a representative democracy.

I say, cut out the middle man! Power to the grassroots.

I find it incredibly arrogant to define human nature as being either good or evil (and besides, what exactly does good/evil mean?). Mankind has lived in a myraid of ways - we have been selfish and murderous, but also loving and generous. Why is this?

Some more thoughts: Does anarchism require "perfect" people?

In reply to:

Man is a selfish and often violent animal and we need some sort of social structure to keep us in check, like it or not.




Let's stop this talk of how "the others" need authority and discuss ourselves personally. Do you need Officer Jones to maintain your morality? Do your Senators make you more ethical?

Who'd fix the sewers? Those who had the skill and and desire to do so would. If nobody wanted to, the community would organize some sort of voluntary shit-work task force. I scrub my toliet, clean my dog's shit up, and do tedious yardwork; not very pleasant tasks, but do no need someone to pay me to do it or some state authority to prod me. I do it when necessary and attempt to keep the causes of the problem at a minimum (let the dog out & tidy the bathroom little by little).

Would some redneck play king-of-the-neighborhood? Depends on what Jello Biafra (who is a dumbass, in my opinion) meant. If some redneck did decide to rule a neighborhood by force, well that's where direct action comes into play ~~~> Won't an anarchist society be vulnerable to the power hungry?


Edited by Agent Cooper (03/05/02 04:59 AM)


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InvisibleAgent Cooper
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Re: Republic or democracy [Re: mm.]
    #570101 - 03/05/02 01:40 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

In reply to:

Anarchy...relies on the idea that people are inherently good, and it is only the current hierarchical society which has corrupted them.




Wrong. Anarchists do not assume this.


Edited by Agent Cooper (03/05/02 04:44 AM)


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InvisibleAgent Cooper
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Re: Republic or democracy [Re: Agent Cooper]
    #570769 - 03/05/02 08:10 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

More extended thoughts on the concern of "tyranny of the majority" in a direct democracy: here


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