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Re: The Sick US Healthcare System [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7018924 -

zappaisgod said:
What article? Those weren't my fake facts, they were somebody else's.


the article you seem to be completely ignoring in some desperate attempt to hold on to your flawed ideals and ridiculous and completely unfounded assumptions regarding public healthcare. you know, the article that this thread was about before you derailed it and turned it into a discussion about malpratice lawsuits.

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Re: The Sick US Healthcare System [Re: JonnyOnTheSpot]
    #7019419 -

You really are a link master extraordinaire.


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Re: The Sick US Healthcare System [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7019790 -

http://www.heritage.org/Research/HealthCare/bg1973.cfm

Quote:
Policymakers should ignore imagined outcomes and focus closely on the performance of existing models: the British, Canadian, and other state-run systems. In these systems, health care is subject to bureaucratic and political rationing and driven by political and budgetary pressures. This leads to inevitable adverse effects, including:



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Re: The Sick US Healthcare System [Re: Diploid]
    #7042825 -

i just saw the documentary. it's on most torrent sites now if anyone's interested.


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quest for a fully automatized climate

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Re: The Sick US Healthcare System [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7043088 -

zappaisgod said:
http://www.heritage.org/Research/HealthCare/bg1973.cfm

Quote:
Policymakers should ignore imagined outcomes and focus closely on the performance of existing models: the British, Canadian, and other state-run systems. In these systems, health care is subject to bureaucratic and political rationing and driven by political and budgetary pressures. This leads to inevitable adverse effects, including:




What do you imagine/suppose health care in Canada is comprised of? or have you experienced it first hand?

I think there are some misconceptions, or lack of knowlwedge, about this system that have lead to conclusions that don't represent how the health care delivery works.

1. Elective health care is not part of the social system. If you have an employer sponsored plan this may take care of it. Some employers have a Health Spending Account system where the employee puts up to $5k per year in an account (which is non taxable) for use on electives such as laser eye treatment.
2. The social system is not all encompassing for dental, vision, drugs, etc. These are private plan sponsored, unless you are disabled, elderly retired, or have no income.
3. In my experience, doctors actually have control of the system. They can assert their medical opinion over the system, and the system must respond. Certainly, like every other private or government plan, there are guidelines.
4. The social system covers necessary medical treatment. Of course, like every other insurance plan it is subject to abuse; there are people who spend most of their time visiting doctors with "ailments", that don't exist. Lonely, I guess.


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You are a fortunate person indeed, if you can begin each day accepting the fact that during that day there will be ups and downs, good breaks and bad ones, disappointments, surprises, and unexpected turns of events.

When you have solved all the mysteries of life you long for death, for it is but another mystery of life.

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Re: The Sick US Healthcare System [Re: hummermania00]
    #7045723 -

If I break my arm, or get shot, or am hurt by any form of accident really, I call an ambulance, goto the emergency room and get fixed up, free of charge. I am from Canada.

Non-emergency surgeries and procedures tend to have waiting lists, and it is the price we pay for being kept alive for free I guess.

The American health care system is good if you are not poor. Micheal Moore pisses me off to no end, he is such a fool.


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Capliberty:

"I'll blow the hinges off your freakin doors with my trips, level 5 been there, I personally like x, bud, acid and shroom oj, altogether, do that combination, and you'll meet some morbid figures, lol
Hell yeah I push the limits and hell yeah thats fucking cool, dope, bad ass and all that, I'm not changing shit, I'm cutting to to the chase and giving u shroom experience report. Real trippers aren't afraid to go beyond there comfort zone "

:rofl:

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Re: The Sick US Healthcare System [Re: Hank, FTW]
    #7046407 -

Hank, FTW said:
If I break my arm, or get shot, or am hurt by any form of accident really, I call an ambulance, goto the emergency room and get fixed up, free of charge. I am from Canada.

Non-emergency surgeries and procedures tend to have waiting lists, and it is the price we pay for being kept alive for free I guess.

The American health care system is good if you are not poor. Micheal Moore pisses me off to no end, he is such a fool.


Best post in this entire thread, FTW.


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:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil 
- Thomas Paine

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Re: The Sick US Healthcare System [Re: Hank, FTW]
    #7046614 -

How do you figure it's free? Somebody's paying for it. And I sure hope that cancer doesn't spread before you can get your surgery.
It's against the law to deny emergency care in the USA, regardless of payment prospects.


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Re: The Sick US Healthcare System [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7046761 -

let the big sack of gold do the talking! :thumbup:

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Re: The Sick US Healthcare System [Re: Arp]
    #7046865 -

It's against the law to deny emergency care in the USA, regardless of payment prospects.

So? Welcome to just about every other country in the Western world.

The USA isn't like that anyway...as a recent episode of 60 Minutes reported, homeless at least in LA are often turned away - actually they are given a cab/ambulance ride to "skid row" and just dumped on the sidewalk - even if they have a medical emergency.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: The Sick US Healthcare System [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7046916 -

It's against the law to deny emergency care in the USA

A few years ago an uninsured friend of mine was doing something really stoopid with a power saw and accidentally chopped off his left index finger.

His wife picked up the finger and drove him to the nearest hospital where they promptly sutured his hand enough to stop the bleeding, then packed the finger in a cup of ice and sent him to the 'public' hospital an hour away through traffic.

Naturally, by that time the finger was too far gone to reattach. It may be illegal to turn away an uninsured emergency patient, but in real world USA, it happens all the time.


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Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: The Sick US Healthcare System [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7047437 -

zappaisgod said:
How do you figure it's free? Somebody's paying for it. And I sure hope that cancer doesn't spread before you can get your surgery.
It's against the law to deny emergency care in the USA, regardless of payment prospects.


You are dead right that someone pays for it. Me, for one, and everyone else that pays taxes. And every employer pays a health premium for all employees.

In my case, a 6 figure income means I pay nothing for a premium on top of taxes, because my employer pays it on my behalf as part of my package. However, that in itself is a taxable benefit.

So far, I have used very few health services in my life. So few in fact, that I am probably in the minority that have paid more in to the system than services used. I plan to keep it that way until it is time to move on.


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You are a fortunate person indeed, if you can begin each day accepting the fact that during that day there will be ups and downs, good breaks and bad ones, disappointments, surprises, and unexpected turns of events.

When you have solved all the mysteries of life you long for death, for it is but another mystery of life.

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Re: The Sick US Healthcare System [Re: Diploid]
    #7048381 -

If you have watched Sicko the point is obvious. Its not about everyone that is completely uninsured (like me). Its about people who work hard and have health insurance. But as soon as they get diagnosed with a chronic illness the health care company's do everything they can get a way with to weezle out of paying. Because the insurance company's are in it to make money.
Someone once told me that "the city of boston has more MRI machines then all of canada". Im not sure if theres any truth to that, but I can't get into one of those 50 MRI machines in boston because I have no fucking money. If I were to live in canada, and got on a waiting list even if it took six months, I would still be better off then I am now.
No one wants government in there lives. But there are some things that are necessary. We have socialized roads, schools, police, fire, and libraries. The fact is, you can't have a for profit industry providing a service that is NECESSARY. You can look past all the bullshit from both sides and there is one clear fact, the more people insurance companies deny, the more money they make.
I hate to say this, but if any of you defending the U.S. health care system are working class people, then you have being seriously duped. Because you are defending people who are willfully and consciously trying to fuck you out of your life and health for a few lousy dollars. I mean that alone should be bad enough. So we can keep the system the same. It doesn't mean you'll get as good or better health care, but at least a few ceos can make a shit load of money of your suffering family. And when they write that letter to you denying you of life saving services, you can take great comfort in the fact that the bastard that made the decision never even had to look you in the eye when he killed you.

BTW there is a DVD copy of Sicko on the torrent sites. Its defenantly real. Its not a CAM either.


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Edited by stew248 (06/15/07 01:23 AM)

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Re: The Sick US Healthcare System [Re: stew248]
    #7048685 -

Because the insurance company's are in it to make money.

That's the key, I think.

I choose to have my government perform the duties of a health care provider because at least my government has some transparency with respect to where my money goes. My government will not try to weasel its way out of paying for my health care, either.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: The Sick US Healthcare System [Re: trendal]
    #7049780 -

trendal said:
It's against the law to deny emergency care in the USA, regardless of payment prospects.

So? Welcome to just about every other country in the Western world.

The USA isn't like that anyway...as a recent episode of 60 Minutes reported, homeless at least in LA are often turned away - actually they are given a cab/ambulance ride to "skid row" and just dumped on the sidewalk - even if they have a medical emergency.


Which is why it was news, because it was illegal, wrong and unusual. I have no reason to believe that has NEVER happened in Canada. Do you?


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Re: The Sick US Healthcare System [Re: Diploid]
    #7049813 -

Diploid said:
It's against the law to deny emergency care in the USA

A few years ago an uninsured friend of mine was doing something really stoopid with a power saw and accidentally chopped off his left index finger.

His wife picked up the finger and drove him to the nearest hospital where they promptly sutured his hand enough to stop the bleeding, then packed the finger in a cup of ice and sent him to the 'public' hospital an hour away through traffic.

Naturally, by that time the finger was too far gone to reattach. It may be illegal to turn away an uninsured emergency patient, but in real world USA, it happens all the time.



There are so many things about this that are unanswered as to be pointless. Did the original hospital have facilities or dr.s to perform microsurgery? You don't say. Was it at work? You don't say. If it was he would be fully covered. Could it have been saved even in the best of circumstances? You don't say. One hour is not that long. And that was no longer an emergency. Not even close. Further, I assume your friend is fairly young, he could have paid for it himself (shudder). Not all medical bills are paid by insurance or government. In all of this you have not said he was sent away because of a lack of insurance or denied emergency care. Sorry.

My guess here is that the first hospital took one look at the finger, determined they didn't have the skill set or facilities to reattach it even if it could be done by anyone, and sent him somewhere bigger. Most hospitals don't keep a microsurgery trauma team on instant call. It would be a waste of money. Sorry about your friends finger, I've done something similar myself, well not that similar 'cause I still have a pinky that works. (Go for the rip cut instead of the crosscut when lacerating fingers, much better option. Also it was a steel blade and not carbide. Carbide turns a finger into mud).


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Re: The Sick US Healthcare System [Re: stew248]
    #7049864 -

stew248 said:
If you have watched Sicko the point is obvious. Its not about everyone that is completely uninsured (like me). Its about people who work hard and have health insurance. But as soon as they get diagnosed with a chronic illness the health care company's do everything they can get a way with to weezle out of paying. Because the insurance company's are in it to make money.
Someone once told me that "the city of boston has more MRI machines then all of canada". Im not sure if theres any truth to that, but I can't get into one of those 50 MRI machines in boston because I have no fucking money. If I were to live in canada, and got on a waiting list even if it took six months, I would still be better off then I am now.
No one wants government in there lives. But there are some things that are necessary. We have socialized roads, schools, police, fire, and libraries. The fact is, you can't have a for profit industry providing a service that is NECESSARY. You can look past all the bullshit from both sides and there is one clear fact, the more people insurance companies deny, the more money they make.
I hate to say this, but if any of you defending the U.S. health care system are working class people, then you have being seriously duped. Because you are defending people who are willfully and consciously trying to fuck you out of your life and health for a few lousy dollars. I mean that alone should be bad enough. So we can keep the system the same. It doesn't mean you'll get as good or better health care, but at least a few ceos can make a shit load of money of your suffering family. And when they write that letter to you denying you of life saving services, you can take great comfort in the fact that the bastard that made the decision never even had to look you in the eye when he killed you.

BTW there is a DVD copy of Sicko on the torrent sites. Its defenantly real. Its not a CAM either.


Well I'm very sorry that you have no money. Tell me again how you are managing to post comments here. You have enough money for some things but not others. Sorry kid, you make your choices and you have chosen to whine for a handout. I chose not to give it to you.

This is all very nice if there was only one health insurance company. There isn't. They compete for customers. If you had your way there would be only one and people would be turned away in droves. See England and smokers. Pay attention. Profit margin for health insurance co.s

Quote:
Breaking down the numbers further by category, here are the individual industry sector results:

HMO - 3.8%
Life Insurance - 8.2 percent
Health Insurance - 5.5 percent


http://www.joepaduda.com/archives/000025.html

Your contention that they are enriching the profits of the shareholders by making dubious denials is ludicrous. First of all, they get sued into oblivion when they wrongly deny a procedure, so it isn't cost effective for them to do so. (Give that puppy a shot when the government runs it.) And desperate people are still flocking to Mexico for Laetrile. I understand the mindset of the desperate but I'm sorry, they're dying and there is nothing to be done. Throwing endless useless care down a rathole is part of the problem, not the solution. And they won't get it from the government. Are there genuine sob stories about the big meanie insurance co.? Of course there are, but:

If the government takes it over TAXPAYERS will be screaming to hold down costs..

But your solution is to make only one provider. Kindly direct me to any industry that has been improved by that. Michael Moore is an amusing provocateur who has been slapped and handled every time he pops his head up. I'm sorry you're a victim of his nonsense. How come he didn't take those guys to someplace like Sweden instead of a third world shithole? Michael Moore gives a fuck about one person and he will tell you anything to benefit that person. P.T Barnum was spot on and Moore knows it. And so does Al Gore.


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Re: The Sick US Healthcare System [Re: trendal]
    #7049874 -

trendal said:
Because the insurance company's are in it to make money.

That's the key, I think.

I choose to have my government perform the duties of a health care provider because at least my government has some transparency with respect to where my money goes. My government will not try to weasel its way out of paying for my health care, either.


You chose nothing of the sort. It was crammed down your throat. You may be happy with that particular wafer but don't for one second fool yourself that you made any choice other than nation of residency. And yes, my friend, they will definitely try to weasel their way out of paying if they don't agree with you about what you should have. Once you get through the line that is.


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Re: The Sick US Healthcare System [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7050191 -

You chose nothing of the sort. It was crammed down your throat. You may be happy with that particular wafer but don't for one second fool yourself that you made any choice other than nation of residency. And yes, my friend, they will definitely try to weasel their way out of paying if they don't agree with you about what you should have. Once you get through the line that is.

OK fine, my parents chose it, and I continue to support it every time I vote. This is a democracy too, pal.

I have had the unhappy fortune of being someone who has had plenty of hospital visits over the years. A few of them have been serious, and a few of them have been chronic. So I'd like to think I know a little more than you do on the subject.

I have never had to wait, beyond what seems appropriate, for medical care. I have never had to wait, period, when I have had a medical emergency. Recently I had a two-month long stay in the hospital...a week in ICU and the rest in a recovery hospital. I had to beg them to let me go home at the 2 month mark...they wanted me to stay another 2 weeks. I had numerous MRI's, CAT scans, and an angiogram...all in the first 2 days. When I was referred to a specialist for further treatment I was in talking to him in one month, on the operating table in two (my condition did not require immediate treatment, but I wanted to get it over with). I then had another MRI, CAT, and angiogram...all on the same day.

So I'm not sure where you get this idea that we all have to wait around for health care. In my experience it has always been fast, and any hearsay evidence I read remains just that - hearsay. None of my relatives or friends have had trouble getting the health care they need.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: The Sick US Healthcare System [Re: trendal]
    #7050247 -

trendal said:
You chose nothing of the sort. It was crammed down your throat. You may be happy with that particular wafer but don't for one second fool yourself that you made any choice other than nation of residency. And yes, my friend, they will definitely try to weasel their way out of paying if they don't agree with you about what you should have. Once you get through the line that is.

OK fine, my parents chose it, and I continue to support it every time I vote. This is a democracy too, pal.

I have had the unhappy fortune of being someone who has had plenty of hospital visits over the years. A few of them have been serious, and a few of them have been chronic. So I'd like to think I know a little more than you do on the subject.


What you know is what's been good for YOU. At the expense of the rest of the nation. Of course you're happy, you got the entitlement, the rest got the bill. Yippee for you.
Quote:
I have never had to wait, beyond what seems appropriate, for medical care. I have never had to wait, period, when I have had a medical emergency. Recently I had a two-month long stay in the hospital...a week in ICU and the rest in a recovery hospital. I had to beg them to let me go home at the 2 month mark...they wanted me to stay another 2 weeks. I had numerous MRI's, CAT scans, and an angiogram...all in the first 2 days. When I was referred to a specialist for further treatment I was in talking to him in one month, on the operating table in two (my condition did not require immediate treatment, but I wanted to get it over with). I then had another MRI, CAT, and angiogram...all on the same day.


I'm glad you did well. Not all do. What's the wait for a hip replacement?
Quote:
So I'm not sure where you get this idea that we all have to wait around for health care. In my experience it has always been fast, and any hearsay evidence I read remains just that - hearsay. None of my relatives or friends have had trouble getting the health care they need.


Depends what you have. Obvious cases are easy. Others, not so.


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