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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Bush Administration Proposes System to Monitor Internet
    #1157275 - 12/20/02 07:54 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Bush Administration to Propose System for Monitoring Internet
The New York Times
By JOHN MARKOFF and JOHN SCHWARTZ

The Bush administration is planning to propose requiring Internet service providers to help build a centralized system to enable broad monitoring of the Internet and, potentially, surveillance of its users.

The proposal is part of a final version of a report, "The National Strategy to Secure Cyberspace," set for release early next year, according to several people who have been briefed on the report. It is a component of the effort to increase national security after the Sept. 11 attacks.

The President's Critical Infrastructure Protection Board is preparing the report, and it is intended to create public and private cooperation to regulate and defend the national computer networks, not only from everyday hazards like viruses but also from terrorist attack. Ultimately the report is intended to provide an Internet strategy for the new Department of Homeland Security.

Such a proposal, which would be subject to Congressional and regulatory approval, would be a technical challenge because the Internet has thousands of independent service providers, from garage operations to giant corporations like American Online, AT&T, Microsoft and Worldcom.

The report does not detail specific operational requirements, locations for the centralized system or costs, people who were briefed on the document said.

While the proposal is meant to gauge the overall state of the worldwide network, some officials of Internet companies who have been briefed on the proposal say they worry that such a system could be used to cross the indistinct border between broad monitoring and wiretap.

Stewart Baker, a Washington lawyer who represents some of the nation's largest Internet providers, said, "Internet service providers are concerned about the privacy implications of this as well as liability," since providing access to live feeds of network activity could be interpreted as a wiretap or as the "pen register" and "trap and trace" systems used on phones without a judicial order.

Mr. Baker said the issue would need to be resolved before the proposal could move forward.

Tiffany Olson, the deputy chief of staff for the President's Critical Infrastructure Protection Board, said yesterday that the proposal, which includes a national network operations center, was still in flux. She said the proposed methods did not necessarily require gathering data that would allow monitoring at an individual user level.

But the need for a large-scale operations center is real, Ms. Olson said, because Internet service providers and security companies and other online companies only have a view of the part of the Internet that is under their control.

"We don't have anybody that is able to look at the entire picture," she said. "When something is happening, we don't know it's happening until it's too late."

The government report was first released in draft form in September, and described the monitoring center, but it suggested it would likely be controlled by industry. The current draft sets the stage for the government to have a leadership role.

The new proposal is labeled in the report as an "early-warning center" that the board says is required to offer early detection of Internet-based attacks as well as defense against viruses and worms.

But Internet service providers argue that its data-monitoring functions could be used to track the activities of individuals using the network.

An official with a major data services company who has been briefed on several aspects of the government's plans said it was hard to see how such capabilities could be provided to government without the potential for real-time monitoring, even of individuals.

"Part of monitoring the Internet and doing real-time analysis is to be able to track incidents while they are occurring," the official said.

The official compared the system to Carnivore, the Internet wiretap system used by the F.B.I., saying: "Am I analogizing this to Carnivore? Absolutely. But in fact, it's 10 times worse. Carnivore was working on much smaller feeds and could not scale. This is looking at the whole Internet."

One former federal Internet security official cautioned against drawing conclusions from the information that is available so far about the Securing Cyberspace report's conclusions.

Michael Vatis, the founding director of the National Critical Infrastructure Protection Center and now the director of the Institute for Security Technology Studies at Dartmouth, said it was common for proposals to be cast in the worst possible light before anything is actually known about the technology that will be used or the legal framework within which it will function.

"You get a firestorm created before anybody knows what, concretely, is being proposed," Mr. Vatis said.

A technology that is deployed without the proper legal controls "could be used to violate privacy," he said, and should be considered carefully.

But at the other end of the spectrum of reaction, Mr. Vatis warned, "You end up without technology that could be very useful to combat terrorism, information warfare or some other harmful act."


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Bush Administration Proposes System to Monitor Internet [Re: Evolving]
    #1157449 - 12/20/02 09:21 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

George Orwell was right, he just had the timeline off by 20 years.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Bush Administration Proposes System to Monitor Internet [Re: Swami]
    #1157488 - 12/20/02 09:41 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Yep. It seems that the government is even using 1984 as a blueprint in some respects.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleBilge
longtimenoC

Registered: 08/26/02
Posts: 1,858
Loc: USA
Re: Bush Administration Proposes System to Monitor Internet [Re: Evolving]
    #1157584 - 12/20/02 10:21 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

...and the book of Revelation for the rest.


--------------------
Shopping for your head? Visit HeadShopFinder.com or find Online Head Shops.


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OfflineGrav
 User Gallery

Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 4,454
Last seen: 8 years, 11 months
Re: Bush Administration Proposes System to Monitor Internet [Re: Evolving]
    #1157624 - 12/20/02 10:38 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Potheads and computer nerds unite!


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OfflinePinkEchoes
Stranger
Registered: 12/14/02
Posts: 159
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 17 years, 3 months
Re: Bush Administration Proposes System to Monitor Internet [Re: Evolving]
    #1157760 - 12/20/02 11:50 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

poor americans...glad im a canadian..if canadian gov trys any shit like this, im gunna freak out and stop wearing pants. why you ask? becuz! 100% of people who wear pants, DIE! thats why.


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Anonymous

Re: Bush Administration Proposes System to Monitor Internet [Re: Evolving]
    #1157923 - 12/20/02 01:01 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Hail to the Chief.

Your post just set my heart to singing.

God, I Lauf Amerika!


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Invisiblebivalve
Stranger
Registered: 07/22/00
Posts: 3,120
Re: Bush Administration Proposes System to Monitor Internet [Re: Evolving]
    #1157958 - 12/20/02 01:15 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Listen. 3000 of my fellow Americans died on September
11th and I don't care what has to be done to make sure
something like that never happens again. I know it's the
cool thing to be anti-American nowadays but you libbies
make me sick. If you hate America that much, leave. It's
that simple. Go promote your young liberal ideas in Iraq
or Iran. I'm sure you'd feel much more at home there.

When Abdul blows up a dirty bomb in Times Square
the blood will be as much on your hands as on his.
That's the truth. When you attack America, you're
attacking freedom.




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OfflineRonoS
DSYSB since '01
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Registered: 01/26/01
Posts: 16,259
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
Last seen: 2 months, 29 days
Re: Bush Administration Proposes System to Monitor Internet [Re: bivalve]
    #1157962 - 12/20/02 01:17 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

3000 of my fellow Americans



Aren't you from Moosejaw, Saskatchewan? :smirk:


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


Edited by Rono (12/20/02 01:17 PM)


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Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: Bush Administration Proposes System to Monitor Internet [Re: bivalve]
    #1157970 - 12/20/02 01:19 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

If you read Evolving's other posts, you'd see that he's far from liberal, even tho I'm a liberal and happen to agree with him on this issue. But if you want to support fascism, go right on ahead and we'll monitor you while you suck Justin Timberlake's dick.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Anonymous

Re: Bush Administration Proposes System to Monitor Internet [Re: bivalve]
    #1157974 - 12/20/02 01:20 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I understand your feelings bivalve but:

1. The 3,000 weren't all Americans.

2. You cannot prevent terrorism.

The idea that you can is a ruse to strip us of our rights. Life isn't safe.


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Invisiblebivalve
Stranger
Registered: 07/22/00
Posts: 3,120
Re: Bush Administration Proposes System to Monitor Internet [Re: ]
    #1158002 - 12/20/02 01:36 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

The idea that terrorism can't be prevented is a liberal
myth that I've seen all too often on this message
board. A lot of these pro-terrorism libbies (Phluck,
Evolving, Rono, etc.) want America to bend over and
let every suicide bomber, hijacker and oil baron
fly planes into America's asshole. That's what it
comes down to.

I'm not going to give up. If George Bush says we
need to invade Iraq, I support it. If he thinks we
need to monitor the internet, I support it. While
you libbies are getting high and eating Doritos
there are people trying to save this country from
being turned into the United States of Islam.


Edited by bivalve (12/20/02 01:37 PM)


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OfflineRonoS
DSYSB since '01
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/26/01
Posts: 16,259
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
Last seen: 2 months, 29 days
Re: Bush Administration Proposes System to Monitor Internet [Re: bivalve]
    #1158007 - 12/20/02 01:38 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I'm going to assume from the absurd level of blind patriotism that you're being sarcastic.


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: Bush Administration Proposes System to Monitor Internet [Re: bivalve]
    #1158009 - 12/20/02 01:39 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Have I told you lately that I hate you?


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OnlineBaby_Hitler
Errorist
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Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 26,159
Loc: To the limit!
Last seen: 6 minutes, 17 seconds
Re: Bush Administration Proposes System to Monitor Internet [Re: bivalve]
    #1158027 - 12/20/02 01:48 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

America is no place for cowards. If you're so scared then leave chicken shit.

BAWK BAWK BAWK!  :laugh:


--------------------
(•_•)
<) )~  ANTIFA
/ \
\(•_•)
( (>    SUPER
/ \
(•_•)
<) )>    SOLDIERS
  / \


Don't vibe my harsh, bro.


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Bush Administration Proposes System to Monitor Internet [Re: bivalve]
    #1158081 - 12/20/02 02:10 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

In reply to:

I know it's the cool thing to be anti-American nowadays but you libbies
make me sick.



Funny, I thought I was a right-wing gun-toting extremist. If being against a police state and being against the violation of the fourth amendment to the U.S. constitution is anti-American, this country is a lot deeper in the shitter than even I imagined. Those who would sacrifice their liberties for the promise of security deserve neither and will get neither. This country is heading down a slippery slope and it's getting steeper everyday. Turning the U.S. into a totalitarian system will do nothing to protect us from the consequences of the incompetence and short-sightedness in our current foreign policy. We have failed to heed the counsel of George Washington and Thomas Jefferson who recommended against entangling and permanent alliances. We have failed to heed the counsel of Dwight D. Eisenhower who warned of the military industrial complex.

In reply to:

Go promote your young liberal ideas in Iraq or Iran.



We are pissing away our liberties, ignoring the Constitution and the Bill of Rights at every turn. If we continue down this road WE WILL HAVE NOTHING LEFT. We are destroying the framework of limited government and abandoning the primacy of individual liberty. We will be consigned to the dust bin of history with all former great countries. I urge you to read the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. Research the Constitutional Convention debates, read the works of Thomas Paine and the writings of Thomas Jefferson and while your at it, read 'On The Duty of Civil Disobedience' by Henry David Thoreau. These contain many of the 'young liberal ideas' which I hold.

Here are a few points which I would like you to consider.
1) Whenever you grant more power to the government to 'do good' you are granting an equal amount of power to the government to do ill.
2) Those who most desire to wield power over their fellow man, are exactly the same people who should be least trusted with power over their fellow man.
3) In any matter of law or public policy or interpersonal behavior, if we consider an action immoral, unjust or in any way wrong when performed by an individual, that action DOES NOT become moral, just or right when performed by the government or any group greater in number or power than the individual.
4) We are losing our Republic and our heritage as Americans, and I will say so whenever it is apparent.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


Edited by Evolving (12/20/02 02:29 PM)


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OfflineWhiteRabbitt
Stranger
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Registered: 06/06/02
Posts: 3,486
Last seen: 13 years, 7 months
Re: Bush Administration Proposes System to Monitor Internet [Re: Evolving]
    #1158272 - 12/20/02 03:43 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

ignorance is bliss.


--------------------
You gotta jump and swing up to hit me in the knees.



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Anonymous

Re: Bush Administration Proposes System to Monitor Internet [Re: Evolving]
    #1158301 - 12/20/02 03:55 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

E, are you really sure about all that? I thought things were not as good as they could be but I...

Wait, someone is knocking on my door.

brb


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OfflineZahid
Stranger
Registered: 01/21/02
Posts: 4,779
Last seen: 17 years, 2 months
Re: Bush Administration Proposes System to Monitor Internet [Re: bivalve]
    #1158420 - 12/20/02 05:06 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Asshole.


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Anonymous

Re: Bush Administration Proposes System to Monitor Internet [Re: Zahid]
    #1158454 - 12/20/02 05:22 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Ad hominem. Same difference.


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OfflineZahid
Stranger
Registered: 01/21/02
Posts: 4,779
Last seen: 17 years, 2 months
Re: Bush Administration Proposes System to Monitor Internet [Re: ]
    #1158659 - 12/20/02 06:44 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Shut up. :smile:

Well well Enter or is it enter I forget which, how are you my fine fellow featherless biped?

It's been ever so long. You were missed in a way that you will never know.

You say, "Being what I am"? And what is that, pray tell?

Also, "even from name-calling shroomerites, the condescending, the angry, the other side of the polar."???

My my you do have a rather long list of ad hominems to chose from don't you?

Word to the wisest oh fair Eenter.

Read the "Be Nice" policy before you go too far awry


What's with all the ad hominems comments today? Did Mr_Mushrooms learn something new in school today?


--------------------


Edited by Zahid (12/20/02 06:53 PM)


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Offlinehtownkid28
pimpin' ain'teasy

Registered: 07/02/02
Posts: 191
Loc: in hell! aahhh!!!!!
Last seen: 17 years, 1 day
Re: Bush Administration Proposes System to Monitor Internet [Re: Evolving]
    #1158720 - 12/20/02 07:04 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

more about internet monitoring

this is to help calm down all those paranoid folks out there who are expecting the stormtroopers to come busting down their door at any moment. :wink: 


--------------------
"in your pockets with red hot rockets!"

"I love it when a plan comes together!"



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Invisibleangryshroom
Stranger
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Registered: 12/18/01
Posts: 7,264
Re: Bush Administration Proposes System to Monitor Internet [Re: bivalve]
    #1159014 - 12/20/02 09:21 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Do you just not realize that bombing Iraq and whoever we are bombing will probably kill more fellow Americans than if we didn't?

Think about it, we have killed a lot more civilians in the middle Eastern countries after 9/11 than they did from one attack. Bush has had continued bombings since then. We are just pushing more towards war...that will always lead to more killings. Its a vicious cycle. The more we bomb and destroy, the more mad they will become, the more likely they will attack back.

What the hell are you talking about..."libbies being pro-terrorism". That is bullshit. Im pro living a healthy life without the risk of high radiation levels, clean air to breathe, and a clean environment. With the technology today, humanity will not be able to stand much more nuclear testings, or even a nuclear war. Do you realize that we blow nuclear bombs right here on our own land. Most of our tax dollars are going to the production and testing of killing American lives.

You sound like you are anti-peace. The more bombing we do now will really just create more hatred towards America in future generations. When will it stop? I dont think war is the answer.

"While
you libbies are getting high and eating Doritos
there are people trying to save this country from
being turned into the United States of Islam."

Wow...

"If you hate america so much, why dont you just leave"

I love my country, its the government im afraid about.

Oh and I dont like doritos.


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OfflineGrav
 User Gallery

Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 4,454
Last seen: 8 years, 11 months
Re: Bush Administration Proposes System to Monitor Internet [Re: bivalve]
    #1159184 - 12/20/02 10:54 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Wow bivalve, you got a whole nation on your side then. It's nice to fit in with the crowd isn't it?
Ah... how nice to not have to really think about things and realize the possible consequences. Your opinion sounds all over the country, all over the televisions and all over the antennas of cars.

Q: How far would you let your government go before you considered it 'crossing the line'? Does a crossing line exist for you?

Weren't 6 million people murdered in the name of helping a nation? How far is too far? And how subtley will it creep up on you? How easy is it to believe in something?


Edited by Grav (12/20/02 11:09 PM)


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Offlineupupup
guardian

Registered: 08/25/01
Posts: 889
Loc: George "I love Hitler" Bu...
Last seen: 17 years, 9 months
Re: Bush Administration Proposes System to Monitor Internet [Re: bivalve]
    #1159456 - 12/21/02 05:31 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

What about the 5 times more of your fellow Americans who died from drinking and driving than the TOTAL of 911 victims? Do you see your government masssing troops around the country to keep people from driving drunk?
How about how many people kill other people when they are drunk or kill themselves when they are drunk? How about how many people get killed in hoptitals from getting the wrong meds or even the "right" ones for that matter?

And this is Americans doing to themselves or other americans. How many people do you know that died as a result of the 911 attacks? How many people do you know that died as a result of using booze? Where is the real enemy?

Keep things in perspective eh?.......


--------------------
Support bacteria - they're the only culture some people have.


Edited by upupup (12/21/02 08:53 AM)


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Invisiblebivalve
Stranger
Registered: 07/22/00
Posts: 3,120
Re: Bush Administration Proposes System to Monitor Internet [Re: Evolving]
    #1159505 - 12/21/02 06:14 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Evolving, the Bill of Rights and the Constitution won't
bring 3000 of our fellow Americans back to life. You
know that, I hope.

Let me ask you something: How many of those 3000
do you think would support this plan to monitor the
internet? The majority of them, I bet. Any of them who
didn't want to have planes flown into them, I bet. Any
of them who didn't want to be reduced to ground beef
awaiting DNA identification.

George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Dwight D.
Eisenhower, Thomas Paine, and Thoreau never saw
planes flying into skyscrapers. Your libbie sophistry
makes me want to vomit.

Every one of you whale-loving, illegal-immigrant loving,
homosexual-loving, abortion-loving, Palestinian-loving
libbies is all the same. You all want to see the United
States of America turned into a joke. It's that simple.
You don't understand that we are at war with people
who despise our way of life. We are at war with people
who despise freedom. It's that simple.


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Anonymous

Re: Bush Administration Proposes System to Monitor Internet [Re: bivalve]
    #1159515 - 12/21/02 06:19 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Bivalve, your passion is compelling but your reasoning is otherwise.


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Invisibleangryshroom
Stranger
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Registered: 12/18/01
Posts: 7,264
Re: Bush Administration Proposes System to Monitor Internet [Re: bivalve]
    #1159645 - 12/21/02 08:01 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

You are making extremely large generalizations. Generalizations are not good.

What the fuck is wrong with gay people? Why should you opress them? IT is just cycling more hatred. Open your mind sometime. I have good friends who are gay, and they dont try to hit on me, and dont stick their dicks up my ass. They are just as different as you are, why would you opress certain people because of their differences.

Yes, Im whale loving, im animal loving. There is a natural process in which all animals are connected. Eliminate some more keystone species and humans will eventually fall from disease.


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InvisibleJonnyOnTheSpot
Sober Surfer
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Posts: 11,527
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Re: Bush Administration Proposes System to Monitor Internet [Re: angryshroom]
    #1159704 - 12/21/02 08:41 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

>>>>The more we bomb and destroy, the more mad they will become, the more likely they will attack back.

Why doesn't anyone else fucking understand this concept? Think of all the little kids that will be forced to grow up in extreme poverty with not a fraction of what americans have as a direct result of out anti-terrorism agenda. Once they become old enough to think and hate it doesnt take much for terrorist leaders to take this next generation and turn them into terrorists that are willing to die if they can destroy america like we destroyed their country. It's an endless cycle that wont stop until some major changes are made in our policy. The fact that it's a pattern that wont end if things arent changed should be our biggest concern as a nation because it will keep the war on terrorism going for years and years(although i have this feeling thats how some people want it) Because meanwhile all our rights are being trashed and america doesnt even resemble the great country it used to be. It's turning into a facist police state, and this new trend doesnt show and signs of stopping anytime soon. People have to voice their concern about all the blatant violations of the constituation and their unwillingness to go along with all these lightning quick changes concerning our rights and freedoms. That would at least slow down the process, and make the government have to rethink their current belief that they can do whatever they want in the name of "the war on terror"

"pray for forgivness as your stripped of your rights, white collared people always seem to decide.
ask yourself a question, do you need to conform? to the brainwashing games that are engaged to restrain?"


You don't elminate terrorism by sending a army to destroy a country. That's rediculous, It creates an endless cycle of terrorism that spirals out of control until the only option left is genocide.





--------------------
Religion is for people who are afraid of going to Hell; spirituality is for those who have been there.


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Offlinejohnnyfive
Burning withCircles!
Registered: 07/02/02
Posts: 886
Loc: Hell
Last seen: 17 years, 6 months
Re: Bush Administration Proposes System to Monitor Internet [Re: JonnyOnTheSpot]
    #1159955 - 12/21/02 11:10 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

In reply to:

You don't elminate terrorism by sending a army to destroy a country. That's rediculous, It creates an endless cycle of terrorism that spirals out of control until the only option left is genocide.





So true, so true, but unforunatly this i believe was there plan all along! I see this concept espiecally in the war on drugs!


--------------------
And the gameshow host rings the buzzer (brrnnntt) oh and now you get a face full of face!


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OfflineGrav
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Re: Bush Administration Proposes System to Monitor Internet [Re: bivalve]
    #1161120 - 12/21/02 10:32 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Bivalve, ignorant people such as yourself turned this country into a joke a long time ago. Grow up and use your brain a little bit. Stop taking it up the ass from your uncle.

You should be shot with an LSD-loaded Super Soaker for your prejiduce and close-mindedness.


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Invisiblebivalve
Stranger
Registered: 07/22/00
Posts: 3,120
Re: Bush Administration Proposes System to Monitor Internet [Re: Grav]
    #1161767 - 12/22/02 08:48 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Yes, drugs are always the answer, aren't they? If you
tore yourself away from the bong for a second you'd
see that America is teetering on the brink.

My grandfather died for America on the beaches of
Normandy. I would give my life just as quickly.

We don't need anymore dope-smoking Phish phans
telling us to mellow out. If you've studied history and
you look at what's going on now, you'll see that we
are facing the greatest threat this country has ever
faced. These Muslims want to control the world. It's
as simple as that. Just look at Muhammed. Look at
Saladin. Look at Farrakhan.

I don't care about hurting the feelings of a bunch of
towelheads when my country has been attacked.
We need to destroy these people before they try to
destroy us. I believe - and hope - that's what the
majority of my fellow Americans desire.



Maybe that will jog your memory. Think about the
people who lost their lives when America was attacked
the next time you start going off about 'peace' and
'freedom.'

This is the greatest nation on the face of the Earth
and if you don't believe that, you don't deserve to live
here. It's as simple as that.



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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Bush Administration Proposes System to Monitor Internet [Re: bivalve]
    #1162481 - 12/22/02 03:36 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

In reply to:

Evolving, the Bill of Rights and the Constitution won't
bring 3000 of our fellow Americans back to life. You
know that, I hope.



Turning the U.S. into a police state will not bring them back either, what's your point?

In reply to:

Let me ask you something: How many of those 3000
do you think would support this plan to monitor the
internet? The majority of them, I bet. Any of them who
didn't want to have planes flown into them, I bet. Any
of them who didn't want to be reduced to ground beef
awaiting DNA identification



I have no way of answering it, but it is irrelevent. Turning the U.S. into a police state will not stop terrorism. The terrorism directed at Americans is directly related to our foreign policy. Does this justify it? NO, I NEVER SAID IT DID.

Let me try an anology that perhaps you may understand. If you stick your hand into a hornets nest and the hormets start to sting you, there are two things you should do:
1) Remove your hand from the hornets nest.
2) Stop the hornets that are stinging or about to sting you in whatever way you can.
U.S. foreign policy amounts to ignoring #1 and while trying like hell to implement #2 by smashing as many hornets as possible using the hand that is stuck in the hornets' nest and getting stung. This is unwise.

In reply to:

George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Dwight D.
Eisenhower, Thomas Paine, and Thoreau never saw
planes flying into skyscrapers.



They didn't need to, following the concept of no entangling or permanent alliances would have assured that the situation would never have happened. Avoiding making policy to satisfy the military industrial complex's political/pork barrel desires and not sticking our nose all over the globe where it doesn't belong would have assured that the situation would never have occured.

In reply to:

Your libbie sophistry
makes me want to vomit.



Please define 'libbie sophistry.' Please tell me how expecting that the U.S. government should abide by the terms of it's charter and my desire not to see my country sink into a police state qualifies as 'libbie sophistry.' A cogent analysis of my political opinions would go a long way towards this... I suggest that you take some dramamine and study the sources that I previously suggested.

In reply to:

Every one of you whale-loving, illegal-immigrant loving,
homosexual-loving, abortion-loving, Palestinian-loving
libbies is all the same. You all want to see the United
States of America turned into a joke. It's that simple.



What have I ever stated to make you think that I am one of the 'whale-loving, illegal-immigrant loving, homosexual-loving, abortion-loving, Palestinian-loving libbies.' Here's a tip, a intelligent review of my political opinions as I have previously expressed in this forum would be a good place to start.

In reply to:

You don't understand that we are at war with people
who despise our way of life. We are at war with people
who despise freedom. It's that simple.



I understand better than you what is a stake and the reasons for the current situation. It has nothing to do with people being jealous of our freedoms. It has everything to do with our enemies' perceptions of the U.S. as being an empire, and supporting dictatorial regimes in their homelands, as well as our support of Isreal to the detriment of the Palestineans. If these people despise our freedom and want to take it away, it would seem that your opinions are sympathetic to their cause for in fact your opinions are in support of actions to diminish our freedoms. It would also seem that our federal government in fact should consider them to be their allies for the federal government is increasingly taking actions to diminish our freedoms.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Invisiblebivalve
Stranger
Registered: 07/22/00
Posts: 3,120
Re: Bush Administration Proposes System to Monitor Internet [Re: Evolving]
    #1163050 - 12/22/02 06:51 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I had a good laugh reading your post. You libbies
are so ridiculously misguided. Maybe it's time to
stop saving the whales and Palestinians and take
a look around you.

I liked your hornets thing. More libbie sophistry. It
might make sense if hornets could fly planes into
buildings. Fortunately, they cannot.

Maybe while I'm reading Thomas Paine, the great
Holocaust denier and Nazi apologist, you might want
to check out an elementary-level entomology text
book.

Also, your idea of what constitutes a 'police state' is
hilarious. Should we not have police officers? Should
we not have mailmen? Should we not have dog catchers?
Should we not have bank tellers? Why don't we just
amputate our limbs and spend all day sucking ourselves
off in the backseat of our cars? You'd love that, wouldn't
you?

I love how you drop names like George Washington
and Thomas Paine. These two men together were
responsible for hundreds of thousands, and possibly
millions of deaths. They're criminals of war. Read the
history books. This is all documented.

Go vote for Al Gore and coddle the Palestinian homicide
bombers. Your casuistry and rhetorical legerdemain
fool the 14 year old stoners but not me. You are a
common charlatan-- nothing more.


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OfflineSkikid16
fungus fan

Registered: 06/27/02
Posts: 5,666
Loc: In the middle of the nort...
Last seen: 16 years, 7 months
Re: Bush Administration Proposes System to Monitor Internet [Re: bivalve]
    #1163080 - 12/22/02 07:05 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

You're post exemplified why people around the world hate Americans.
In reply to:

Maybe while I'm reading Thomas Paine, the great
Holocaust denier and Nazi apologist, you might want
to check out an elementary-level entomology text
book.



What in the hell are you talking about? Paine was alive in the 1700's, long before the Nazis and holocaust
In reply to:

These two men together were
responsible for hundreds of thousands, and possibly
millions of deaths. They're criminals of war. Read the
history books. This is all documented.


. Huh? Where is this documented?


Here's my question for you: If you are so damn willing to support this current administration and its push for dictatorial control, why are you spending time on this site while you could be enlisted in the army, helping "preserve" freedom.


--------------------
Re-Defeat Bush in '04


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Invisibleangryshroom
Stranger
 User Gallery

Registered: 12/18/01
Posts: 7,264
Re: Bush Administration Proposes System to Monitor Internet [Re: bivalve]
    #1163290 - 12/22/02 08:50 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

In reply to:

Maybe it's time to
stop saving the whales and Palestinians and take
a look around you.





Hey, its the Republican government right now in office that isn't doing shit except planning on invading the middle east to make sure they don't have weapons of mass destruction, and figuring a way to take over their country. Oh, we are just improving our "security" here in America, only because this whole thing happened because of the new foreign affairs started from Bush. I don't think that the "suicide bombers" were targeting civilians, rather the government and the Bush regime which had so many problems in the past (with foreign countries)

Why not try to alleviate the frustration and anger, resolve some problems between the countries and stop this stupid violence.

In reply to:


Go vote for Al Gore and coddle the Palestinian homicide
bombers. Your casuistry and rhetorical legerdemain
fool the 14 year old stoners but not me. You are a
common charlatan-- nothing more.





Yeah, I would have voted for Al Gore because he would have more so tried to achieve peace (maybe). Hes probably not much better than Bush IMO. But, he could have had a little more morality and a more open minded attitude. It would have been interesting to see if Gore being in office, would have changed the events of 9/11.

I do not smoke pot nor am I 14.

Maybe you should stop listening to shallow boy bands who get their songs written for them.
Why not listen to Bob Marley, or other bands which try to prove a statement. Its your ignorance of so many things in America which just gets pushed on for longer and longer. They do sing songs for a reason. Lyrics come from the heart. When you say to "stop and look around yourself", makes me sick. You're the one who is blind to so many things....sure call it domestic affairs. Its not because of the Palestinians, but, because of policies which really do make the rich richer and poor poorer. Many other things which I would want to list, but, its 12 AM.

America wouldn't be the place it is without hard working immigrants to do the dirty work. The economy doesn't just involve the upper class white men in their large companies. Immigrant workers who work for just about nothing to feed your fat ass deserve a lot more credit than you give them.


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OfflineDilauded
Sensability andrespectability

Registered: 10/29/02
Posts: 682
Loc: Krunkville, FL
Last seen: 18 years, 6 months
Re: Bush Administration Proposes System to Monitor Internet [Re: bivalve]
    #1163435 - 12/22/02 10:04 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Drugs ARE BAD, there's NOTHING GOOD ABOUT THEM except the enlightenment and that they're fun.

DAMN RIGHT. So what if the Bush Administration proposes a system to monitor the internet. Unless you're planning some major attack then what's the big deal. I wouldn't be surprised if the feds are monitoring the internet already, as long as I'm safe and they're preventing any SHIT happening, I'M HAPPY. I'm happy that tax money is gone into security instead of STUPID ASS SOCIAL PROGRAMS. A lot of nations are against Israel and when they're being constantly attacked by fucking suicide bombers. Newpapers complain on how Israelis are cruel to Arabs, Arabs are just as cruel to Israelis. Newspapers are bias and the TV news is bias. INDIVIDUALISM IS TAKEN AWAY BY Socialism and Communism and the Liberals try little by little to take away OUR RIGHTS. WELL FUCK THAT. there's a lot more to say but i got off the subject. If you can't tell, i'm against Communism/Socialism/Liberalism its all a means to a society down the drain and without freedom and freedom is what America fights for or at least what Republicans fight for.

God Bless America,
Dilauded


Edited by Dilauded (12/22/02 10:40 PM)


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InvisibleBuddha5254
addict
Registered: 04/23/00
Posts: 532
Re: Bush Administration Proposes System to Monitor Internet [Re: bivalve]
    #1163894 - 12/23/02 06:27 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Your posts are offensive.


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OfflineFatNug
Si-Hing

Registered: 11/21/01
Posts: 150
Loc: Everywhere at 1nce
Last seen: 15 years, 5 months
Re: Bush Administration Proposes System to Monitor Internet [Re: bivalve]
    #1164591 - 12/23/02 10:18 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

You are friggan blind man!!!

WE americans are the ones trying to control the world. We want all countries under one nice US controlled umbrella. The Muslims just want to live in peace without our shit US values dirtying up their holy land. They dont want our land, they want us out of theirs.You are the kind of spineless sheep who will bring this country to a nuclear holicaust. With your "americanism" and thoughtless patriotism.


--------------------
================================================So what's your peace of mind huh? A swiss watch? leasin' a Lex on credit? all the pussy and liquor a nigga can get..put together this puzzle, but my pieces won't fit.. {Ras kass}


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OfflineGrav
 User Gallery

Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 4,454
Last seen: 8 years, 11 months
Re: Bush Administration Proposes System to Monitor Internet [Re: bivalve]
    #1164811 - 12/23/02 12:21 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Bivalve your posts have absolutely no thought behind them.
Did your drill sargent dad just beat the shit out of you every day and molest you into thinking like this? Where the hell is the logic? Can't you grasp the fact that we can't just go around fucking with people just in the name of more resources? Or that there MAY be some serious repercussions to giving an already sketchy government even more power over us.

Yours is a path of delusional hatred.

I don't think drugs are the answer to anything, but it would certainly do you some good to get slapped on your ass and clam-baked and stop being such a loud thoughtless idiot.


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OfflineFatNug
Si-Hing

Registered: 11/21/01
Posts: 150
Loc: Everywhere at 1nce
Last seen: 15 years, 5 months
Re: Bush Administration Proposes System to Monitor Internet [Re: angryshroom]
    #1164949 - 12/23/02 01:42 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

The economy doesn't just involve the upper class white men in their large companies.




-GOD how I wish this were true!!  Unfourtunatly 50% of the money in the country does belong to the top 5% of these white men. If they sold ALL of their stock, we'd probibly have another 1920-esque market Crash. also who do you think gives funds to the soon to be presidents!!  Ya can't run without $$$$$$ And a couple mil barely puts a dent in some billionares pocket, it'd be like me giving a friend $10. Especially since it can be deducted from taxes...taxes which are cut for you, but raised for the rest of us..I could go on an on...JESUS i cant wait to move to Canada.  Just hope I make it before the Nukes start to drop.  :frown:

-I got $1000 says we get nuked before Dubbaya's next term is over in 2008..   


--------------------
================================================So what's your peace of mind huh? A swiss watch? leasin' a Lex on credit? all the pussy and liquor a nigga can get..put together this puzzle, but my pieces won't fit.. {Ras kass}


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InvisibleBuddha5254
addict
Registered: 04/23/00
Posts: 532
Re: Bush Administration Proposes System to Monitor Internet [Re: FatNug]
    #1164971 - 12/23/02 01:57 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Bivalve swallowed the bait big time.


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Offlinefrogsheath
Stranger
Registered: 02/18/02
Posts: 915
Loc: Chicago, Illinois U.S.A.
Last seen: 6 years, 5 months
Re: Bush Administration Proposes System to Monitor [Re: Evolving]
    #1166037 - 12/24/02 01:41 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

In reply to:

the counsel of George Washington and Thomas Jefferson who recommended against entangling and permanent alliances.




I agree it's getting scary how fast the government seems to want to take away our privacy and our freedom. However, the reference to counsel of the founding fathers is obsolete because entangling and permenant alliances are a fact of life today that will only increase. 60% of the world's crude comes from the Middle-East and we will need it twice as much as we do now in a few decades I think. China will need it too. We are the world's cop. We cannot let the middle-east fall to a dictator with WMD.


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