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Questions for materialists
    #7018576 -

If it is true that this physical universe and the things within it are just random and accidental combinations of matter/energy, have always been and will always be matter/energy and if "life" (consciousness) is just *the result* of some accidental combination of chemicals, why haven't our advanced modern sciences been able to reproduce this accidental combination of chemicals and create "life" in a controlled environment?

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Re: Questions for materialists [Re: Pulsating]
    #7018587 -

Perhaps we are not scientifically advanced enough yet.

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Re: Questions for materialists [Re: Pulsating]
    #7018601 -

This dude seemed to be on to something, at least the physical form. Using sacred geometry, pyramids of glass spheres, and reflected light he was able to come up with convincing 'human forms'. Kind of interesting.



http://www.people.vcu.edu/~chenry/


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Re: Questions for materialists [Re: Pulsating]
    #7018945 -

Pulsating wrote:
If it is true that this physical universe and the things within it are just random and accidental combinations of matter/energy, have always been and will always be matter/energy and if "life" (consciousness) is just *the result* of some accidental combination of chemicals, why haven't our advanced modern sciences been able to reproduce this accidental combination of chemicals and create "life" in a controlled environment?


Whether they may seem random by deterministic views, they may seem deterministic by chaotic views. But, why not associate concepts to form a conscious pretentious idea. Thus. What is the purpose of a flower? Is consciousness the product of all basic chemistry? So just like the flower, it needs some activation so it can produce a viable seed. A tube baby may have pulsating thoughts about nature and whether any thought of consciousness could be born out of a tube. Putting six atoms of Be “in a cat state” is a start. Starting at the end product millions of calculations of possible outcomes to the reality point and then there at the end is a rule o principle of “it must be a guiding wave”... said the Physicist. But, did we not awaken the genius that was sleeping? The impossible was done for few seconds or few eternities. Do consciousness survives outside of the brain or it needs the pathways of memes and the senses? Activating the impossible meme requires proof. If there is a guiding wave then consciousness has try/altered the rules of matter/energy and space... but whatever it was, it was felt all over the Universe. Written in the stone. Principle of action and reaction awaits confirmation. Mother Earth is so little and so mighty.


--------------------
Wave.
'And for this reason repentance (metanoia) is an elevating means. For he who feels impatience with the circunstances in which he finds himself, devises means of escape.
  Now the chief thing in purification is the will. For then both deeds and words lend a helping hand. But, when the will is absent, the whole purificatory discipline of initiation is...'

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Re: Questions for materialists [Re: Pulsating]
    #7018966 -

Pulsating said:
why haven't our advanced modern sciences been able to reproduce this accidental combination of chemicals and create "life" in a controlled environment?


Why would you expect humans -- a species that pays $4 for coffee and watches Jerry Springer reruns -- be able to reproduce something that took nature billions of years?

Why can't we create diamonds?

Why can't we blow up stars?


--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:

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Re: Questions for materialists [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #7019224 -

WhiskeyClone said:
Pulsating said:
why haven't our advanced modern sciences been able to reproduce this accidental combination of chemicals and create "life" in a controlled environment?


Why would you expect humans -- a species that pays $4 for coffee and watches Jerry Springer reruns -- be able to reproduce something that took nature billions of years?

Why can't we create diamonds?

Why can't we blow up stars?


First I don't expect humans to do anything, let alone "create life". Most humans I have met don't even know what life actually is...let alone how to create it.

Also, I don't watch Springer or buy/drink coffee, but according to the information I have access to, diamonds can only be formed under extreme geological conditions. These conditions are when the temperature is greater than 800 degrees Celsius and pressure is 50,000 times atmospheric pressure. These conditions only exist at 150km to 200km below the surface of the earth. Typically underneath continents is where diamonds are formed, not underneath sea beds.

As far as stars, I am certain we could destroy one (or more) if we sent the right kind and amount of explosives (yeah humans use their technology to blow each other up) into it. As far as the right kind and amount...you'll have to get with someone else about that.

You see, it is possible to answer questions without asking more inane questions that have absolutely nothing to do with what is being discussed.

So, you say it took nature billions of years....what is your definition of nature?


--------------------
"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something." ― Plato

"I communicate, therefore I am" - I

"Nature is ancient, but surprises us all." - Björk

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Re: Questions for materialists [Re: Pulsating]
    #7019519 -

>You see, it is possible to answer questions without asking more inane questions that have absolutely nothing to do with what is being discussed.

My questions were rhetorical, not inane. Rhetorical questions are often used to answer other questions. And unless you pretend as if they are to be taken at face value, they are relevant.

My point was that our 'advanced modern sciences' are not yet capable of spontaneous generation because people don't know how to do it. The unique combination of environmental conditions required to generate life on apparently did not arise for eons after the universe formed (if you subscribe to the Big Bang model of the universe), so I find our inability to do it as unsurprising as our inability to turn lead to gold.


--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:

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Re: Questions for materialists [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #7020011 -

And so we return to the "accidental combinations of chemicals and the accidental evolution which followed that" not being able to be recreated in any part. Why not?

And we can obliterate atoms and decimate entire cities full of people, yet we can't create a monocell?


--------------------
"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something." ― Plato

"I communicate, therefore I am" - I

"Nature is ancient, but surprises us all." - Björk

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Re: Questions for materialists [Re: Pulsating]
    #7020022 -

We can't replicate a blackhole? Whos to say that its not a natural process? We can't replicate fusion, who's to say that it didn't come along on its own? I'm really missing your point here.

I'll sum it up; technology isn't up to speed.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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Re: Questions for materialists [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #7020054 -

I don't think our science will ever be able to create "life" and I don't mean biological life. That is too easy.

I mean the "life" that is who we are and that separates us from inanimate matter and animals.


--------------------
"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something." ― Plato

"I communicate, therefore I am" - I

"Nature is ancient, but surprises us all." - Björk

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Re: Questions for materialists [Re: Pulsating]
    #7020087 -

What is it that separates us from animals really?


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: Questions for materialists [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7020107 -

MushroomTrip said:
What is it that separates us from animals really?



Many things that stem from one thing. But a little observation will answer that question.


--------------------
"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something." ― Plato

"I communicate, therefore I am" - I

"Nature is ancient, but surprises us all." - Björk

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Re: Questions for materialists [Re: Pulsating]
    #7020117 -

Imagine how the first apes felt when they first created fire! Seems so insignificant with regards to our current abilities. Now extrapolate.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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Re: Questions for materialists [Re: Pulsating]
    #7020120 -

Well yes, that's exactly the reason I am asking you that. Because it looks like we're not that different from animals.
Language could be one of them, and the fact that we're being able to manipulate out surroundings better than them, but I have a suspicion you're not referring to these.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: Questions for materialists [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7020132 -

"Many things that stem from one thing."

:boxerface: mmm??  :bongload:  :blazed:  derrr...  Can you elaborate a little, please??


--------------------

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Re: Questions for materialists [Re: Pulsating]
    #7020211 -

Pulsating said:
MushroomTrip said:
What is it that separates us from animals really?



Many things that stem from one thing. But a little observation will answer that question.


Wow, is that ever vague. People have been observing for centuries, and I've never heard anybody satisfactorily define a quality that separates us from other animals.

Maybe you are the one who can inform me.


--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:

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Re: Questions for materialists [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #7020218 -

Our culture and sentience.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Questions for materialists [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #7020297 -

Those things aren't really a definitive difference to me. Other animals have social hierarchies, they erect structures, they even create art (Google bowerbirds).

From the definitions I've seen, sentience is not unique to humans:

Sentience refers to possession of sensory organs, the ability to feel or perceive, not necessarily including the faculty of self-awareness. The possession of sapience is not a necessity. The word sentient is often confused with the word sapient, which can connote knowledge, consciousness, or apperception. The root of the confusion is that the word conscious has a number of different usages in English. The two words can be distinguished by looking at their Latin roots: sentire, "to feel"; and sapere, "to know".

Sentience is the ability to sense. It is separate from, and not dependent on, aspects of consciousness.

To me it seems like a lot of people use the word sentience to mean "a human level of intelligence," which of course is not a definitive quality either. I'm not sure how you define it.


--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:

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Re: Questions for materialists [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #7020628 -

If you can't spot the differences between humans and animals, you should be doing something besides playing on the internet.

Edited by Pulsating (06/07/07 08:08 PM)

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Re: Questions for materialists [Re: Pulsating]
    #7020636 -

This is a debate forum.
You have to sustain your ideas :shrug:
This is not about being able or unable to discern the difference, but to sustain them.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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