Home | Community | Message Board
You are not signed in.
Sign In New Account
Forum Index Search Posts Trusted Vendors Highlights Galleries FAQ User List Chat Store Random Growery

Kratom Eye
This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
Threaded Mode Threaded  Previous topic Previous  View all topics Index  Next topic Next 

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Myyco.com Golden Teacher Liquid Culture For Sale   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

Jump to first unread post Pages: | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 |  [ show all ]
Re: The past and the future... [Re: backfromthedead]
    #6953231 -

Objective reality is only NOW (same thing as present, for reality is one event).  Any one increment of *time* can be stretched to infinity.  Awareness is a fractal.

http://emuse.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/22014/


Everything happens simultaneously, yet nothing does.  It depends on your vantange point. :psychsplit:


--------------------

"The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji
"Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream."
"My karma ran over my dogma!"

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The past and the future... [Re: SoY]
    #6953250 -

SoY said:
Objective reality is only NOW (same thing as present, for reality is one event).  Any one increment of *time* can be stretched to infinity.  Awareness is a fractal.

http://emuse.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/22014/


Everything happens simultaneously, yet nothing does.  It depends on your vantange point. :psychsplit:


:smile:

Look who decided who stop by :thumbup:

Yes... it's here and in the same time... depends only on what we focus on :mushroom2:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The past and the future... [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #6953276 -

Or, are you leading to the absence of free will by saying "the past is dependent upon the future"....?

Bingo! You get the prize! :wink:


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The past and the future... [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #6953286 -

:laugh: :thumbup:

Happy belated birthday MT! :heart: :tongue2: :sun: :mushroom2:

I've been on the road again, and it is good to be home!

Quote:
MushroomTrip said:
Yes... it's here and in the same time... depends only on what we focus on  :mushroom2:


Quote:
Qui-Gon Jinn said:
Your focus determines your reality.



--------------------

"The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji
"Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream."
"My karma ran over my dogma!"

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The past and the future... [Re: SoY]
    #6953321 -

Thank you SoY :mushroom2: :wink: :blazed:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The past and the future... [Re: trendal]
    #6953355 -

**IF** this was true, I suppose when we are all living life on the backstroke of the time cycle,
we would not be able to conceive of time going in any other direction either....

The only possible way to prove in "an experiment" that free will exists, is to pop the "bubble" we are all in (COOL vid SOY :thumbup: ),
and jump thru to a different point in time - most likely the past, so you can prove the experiment "worked"....
I am sure there might be more ways to prove the presence or absence of free will....(?)

But that would be just a way to prove that it does exist, that doesn't mean that free will does not already exist....  :wink:


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."
>^;;^<

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The past and the future... [Re: trendal]
    #6953702 -

Something else that comes to mind about an experiment (quantum?) that I remember, but don't know what it was called....
In theory, you could send two oppositely charged (electron?) particles that are somehow connected as "one" to the separate sides of the universe....
If you were to change the charge of one particle, the other (no matter how far away) would ALSO flip it's charge at the same time....
Wouldn't the change in the +- charges have to be at precisely the "exact" same time for this to work....?

And in another line of thinking, if there is no free will, and only one "time-line",
doesn't that rule out any possibility of there being any parallel universes - in theory....?


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."
>^;;^<

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The past and the future... [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6954219 -

fireworks_god said:
trendal said:
Here's one: how do you start to change the future, when the past is set in stone?


The present? :smirk: :mushroom2:


:yesnod:
The present IS :smirk:
And reality kicks ass :heartpump:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The past and the future... [Re: trendal]
    #6954458 -

trendal said:
The present is an illusion. Doesn't exist, never will, and never has :wink:


trendal said:
To who's "present" are you referring to? Mine? Yours? Are we to assume each and every one of us has his/her own present? An agreement couldn't even be made if you were sitting right in front of me...or more precisely, 0.000003 light-seconds away from me.

Even one being cannot truly define it's own "present"...there is a vast distance between the nerve cells of a brain, and those distances must be traversed. Communication between my frontal lobe and my visual cortex takes time, for example.



Do we exist, trendal?

I ask you because this is, essentially, what you are implying. You are implying that we do not exist.

Now, let me ask you.

Do we experience?

When do we experience?

You propose that the present moment is illusion, thereby implying that our experience of reality, our existance itself, is illusion, yet have you not considered that our conception of past and future is an illusion?

The question you asked that I responded to is being asked from a misconception regarding the nature of reality. If the past has already existed and has been set, that its state is fixtated, then how do we begin to change the future?

Well, let's assume that there is no time, only change within the present moment, which is the state of existance. As we exist, then we therefore realize that the present moment is not an illusion, as it is the nature of existance itself. Time is simply a measurement of the manner in which one system changes in relation to another system.

Time is not an objective passage of "time", but simply our sense of how things change in relation to how other things change. All change occurs within the present moment, regardless of where each aspect of reality is physically located in relation to another.

Clearly reality occurs within a space, sort of like how form requires the formless. The present moment is the envelope within which reality and its processes exist and interact within.

This question only arises when one has a miconception regarding the nature of reality. We experience reality, we experience reality in the present moment, we exist as this experience within the present moment... the present moment exists. :craven:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The past and the future... [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #6954474 -

MushroomTrip said:
[:yesnod:
The present IS :smirk:
And reality kicks ass :heartpump:


And, do you ever wonder, the question "how?"



:strokebeard:


:sherlock:





:hehehe:



:tongue: :heartpump:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The past and the future... [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6954529 -

Quote:
And, do you ever wonder, the question "how?"


Always :smirk:

Quote:
:tongue: :heartpump:


:naughty:
Those who stick their tongue... :strokebeard:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The past and the future... [Re: trendal]
    #6954784 -

trendal said:
The past depends on the future as much as the future does on the past.

In order to change the future, you must be able to change the past.


I disagree completely with your second statement.

You CAN change the PRESENT, to change the future. In fact, it is much simpler than time travel.

What is more likely:

Humans will cut carbon emissions to reduce global, atmospheric carbon levels?

Or:

Machines will send the T 1000 back in time, to TERMINATE the creator of the internal combustion engine?

If we agree about relativity, linear time, and the definition of the terms "past", "present" and "future"... then, the future is NOT determined by the past at all. It is in fact, determined by the present. So... I guess, I also completely disagree with your first statement.

People here, have already touched upon this point, but I wanted to make it again... this thread's getting deep, for the sake of being deep. I wanted to use the present, to take this discussion back, to a simpler time.

Hasta la vista... baby. I'll be back!

p.s. If this thread gets up to 88 posts, we're gonna' see some serious shit!


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.


Edited by Rose (05/23/07 04:59 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The past and the future... [Re: trendal]
    #6954895 -

One's free choices can not be completely causally determined and beyond our control. We are aware beings (which in my opinion is more then the concept of simply rational) and the more aware we become, the more we see the infinite ways/manners of how things can happen. Yes, they are the result of the past but the good news is that they don't end up in a form of a single result.
The potential is infinite here.
That is precisely the reason the reason why I sustained in the first place that the more we are able to understand the past, the more we are able to see the multitude of possible results, which in extent will make us able to freely choose the result we want. Basically we have the freedom to choose from any of the given choices. This is free will.
And by that I am not denying the existence, on a certain level, of determinism, but to the point we realize, we become aware that there are many deterministic factors which are all different and with different outcomes and then we can pick up on one of them, at our own Will. Do you agree with the statement that when one chooses one course of action over another it is called free will? Again, I am getting back to what I've sustained earlier: ALL the possibilities are happening here, now, simultaneously. It is up to what we choose to focus our attention on - and that we will get, that's the lead we will follow.

Also you didn't clear up for me what were you referring to when you made the difference between the notion of present and the notion of now. How exactly are they different? You said:


Quote:
If I had meant "now" I would have said "now".....


:shrug:
I'm having difficulties in understanding what you were talking about and where were you heading to and I would appreciate your explanation.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The past and the future... [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #6955506 -

The experiment you were thinking about is one of the most hotly contested theories in science today!

Basically, you take a photon and "split" it in two. Then you take one of the photons and move it some distance away. Now when you measure the spin of one of the photons it is supposed to be completely random...but as soon as you find the spin, the other photon somehow "knows" to choose that spin. Distance has no affect on this experiment...theoretically you could separate the photons by the size of the universe and it wouldn't matter!

Personally I think this experiment shows that our universe is not random, and that "the observer" does not have the importance placed upon it. I think that the spin of the photon is already determined and we just have no way of predicting it. Both photons will always have the same spin because they came from the same photon.

And in another line of thinking, if there is no free will, and only one "time-line",
doesn't that rule out any possibility of there being any parallel universes - in theory....?

No, I wouldn't think so...all the parallel universes would simply have a different time line.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The past and the future... [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6955527 -


Do we exist, trendal?

I ask you because this is, essentially, what you are implying. You are implying that we do not exist.

I am not implying any such thing :wink:

Time is not an objective passage of "time", but simply our sense of how things change in relation to how other things change. All change occurs within the present moment, regardless of where each aspect of reality is physically located in relation to another.

I ask again: which "present moment" do you choose?

It's pretty basic physics that things do not occur simultaneously in our universe...so who's present do you choose? My present? The present as experienced by a nerve cell in my brain? What about the present as experienced by some being on Alpha Centauri?


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The past and the future... [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #6955547 -

Saying "now" makes sense to me...you are referring to a point in time.

Saying "the present moment" makes less sense to me (although I can and do use it) because you are trying to capture a "now" and give it to someone else as their "now". I don't think a consensus can be reached on it.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The past and the future... [Re: trendal]
    #6955735 -

trendal said:
It's pretty basic physics that things do not occur simultaneously in our universe...so who's present do you choose? My present? The present as experienced by a nerve cell in my brain? What about the present as experienced by some being on Alpha Centauri?


I haven't really been following this thread, so I'm going to try to catch on from the last page or so...

Anyways, I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "who's present"...how many "now"s are there? There is now. That's all. Not MY now or YOUR now. I think "present moment" and "now" are being tossed around here as being synonymous. I hope this thread doesn't degenerate into semantics.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The past and the future... [Re: trendal]
    #6955752 -

trendal said:
The past depends on the future as much as the future does on the past.

In order to change the future, you must be able to change the past.


You may have already answered this, in which case I apologize, but can you please explain how the past depends on the future? Are you referring to the concepts? The idea of a past depends on the idea of a future, and vice-versa? Also, how can the future be changed, if it has yet to become?


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The past and the future... [Re: dblaney]
    #6955758 -

I think "present moment" and "now" are being tossed around here as being synonymous. I hope this thread doesn't degenerate into semantics.

That's what I've been trying to avoid :frown:
They are not synonyms...

Anyways, I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "who's present"...how many "now"s are there? There is now. That's all. Not MY now or YOUR now.

A little thing called Relativity would disagree with you here...


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The past and the future... [Re: trendal]
    #6955785 -

Quote:
That's what I've been trying to avoid :frown:
They are not synonyms...


Okay, so let's go back to the definitions you provided earlier:

Quote:
Saying "now" makes sense to me...you are referring to a point in time.

Saying "the present moment" makes less sense to me (although I can and do use it) because you are trying to capture a "now" and give it to someone else as their "now". I don't think a consensus can be reached on it.


These seem almost contradictory. In the first definition, for "now", you say that it refers to a point in time: something that is the same regardless of interpretation and subjectivity. Something, you might say, that is objective. Yet, for the second definition, you say that there is in fact no objective "now", there are only many subjective nows. Is that right? How do you reconcile this?


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 |  [ show all ]

Shop: Myyco.com Golden Teacher Liquid Culture For Sale   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
Threaded Mode Threaded  Previous topic Previous  View all topics Index  Next topic Next 

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Is it possible to change the past?
( 1 2 3 all )		 cleaner 3,250 40 09/14/04 06:46 PM
by BlueOrb
* Past Consciousness Ravus 941 10 11/11/04 03:54 PM
by deff
* Frontal lobes possible key for trasendance? LOBO 807 3 05/06/03 10:27 AM
by EvilGir
* A Different spin on future theory... jono 508 1 02/17/03 04:36 PM
by fredthetree
* Can present action change the past?
( 1 2 all )		 eve69 3,123 28 12/17/03 11:29 AM
by truekimbo2
* Past, present and future Jenherself 962 11 04/18/03 04:09 AM
by infidelGOD
* Change and Our Past gotmagog 498 1 06/07/04 11:26 PM
by kaiowas
* just a thought on past present and future using theories of CleverName 669 4 03/27/03 01:44 PM
by AislingGheal

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, DividedQuantum
10,467 topic views. 0 members, 33 guests and 59 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2026 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.036 seconds spending 0.009 seconds on 18 queries.