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Re: absolutes? [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #6944841 -

MushroomTrip said:
An absolute resolution will be an incomplete one. Reality, life, awareness has so may aspects that you can't just find one answer for them. It will be like a stupid and cruel joke played to us.
Are we really that thirsty for finding reasons that we actually forget to experience and transcend? Is that what really matters?
It's like being unable to see the forest because of the trees.



Using your example, why can't there be an absolute truth for seeing the trees, an absolutee truth for seeing the forest, and an absoolute truth for seeing them both together as one? Also, why do you feel that experiences and transcenion are important? I interpret these activities as a process to achieve a goal. We're transcending to achieve something, are we not? Nirvana, harmony, awareness--whatever you want to call it, it's a goal... it's the ideal accomplishment, it's thee absolute truth.

And even if the ultimate goal is unimportant, only the process of achieving this goal, then the ultimate truth is experiences and transcension.

Quote:
You gave the cancer example. Cancer happens with a purpose, just like any other sickness. Let's say we find the cure for cancer (which in your view would be a universal resolution). What about the causes of cancer? We're treating the effect like a kid who is always squeezing pimples without being aware that maybe he needs to follow a dermatological treatment, or take antibiotics, and rid the pollution/unhealthy lifestyle. It's the same thing with cancer. The things that make people have cancer will STILL be there. Will cause new diseases and so on. So we keep inventing new and more powerful "medicine" in a process which will last forever.



Well then these new powerful "medicines" that we create to fight off cancer and other new disease are not the absolute truth/solution to our problem. You speak of an underlying problem that causes all of our disease, and will continue to create new ones, the absolute truth/solution with this example is the solution to the "underlying problem." Yes, we may be acting like children popping every single pimple-- this is not the absolute truth. The "antibiotic" or whatever example you want is the absolute truth. We need to find these absolutes.

Quote:
I think that the reason one could wish for an universal answer is the need for feeling safe which was it's roots in fear.
Everything in life has MORE then an answer since reality itself in multifaceted.



First, wanting to find an universal answer is not necessarily only out of fear. You previously talked about experiences and transcension... are these actions out of fear? Is curiousity similar to fear? Second, I certainly agree to the statement 'everything in life is multifaceted,' but I disagree with your conclusion. Everything in multifaceted, therefore there are multiple absolutes. I'm not saying that there is some mystical number that is relateable to everything (like the movie pi or 23)... I'm saying that for every situation/problem/etc. in life, there is an absolute truth/solution.

Quote:
Look what happens to people who believe in a singularity. They are fundamentalist. They provoke wars and chaos and destroy lives and mess with our peace of mind.



Unless one were to be complete and ultimately relative to every situation (which is impossible), one is a singularitist. We can be relative to specific situations, like political issues (abortion, gay marriage, etc.), but then we're stating an absolute opinion: "I'm okay with whatever you decide is best with you." It's still an absolute-- it's still a singular opinion. It's impossible to be pro-life and pro-choice... like being black and white. We may be more understanding/compassionate/tolerant of other opinions... but we all have our singular opinion.

Your belief that being an absolutionist provokes war and chaos is your singular absolute belief on absolutionsist--is it not? Therefore, you are an absolutionist, no?


--------------------
YIPPIE!

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Re: absolutes? [Re: DR. PRIME]
    #6944852 -

ScYiNs47 said:
Is there such a thing as nothing?



no, there is no such thing as nothing. Nothing is something, therefore it's not nothing. Even if we describe it as "the absence of something"... it's still something. White is apparently the abscence of colour, but isn't white something? Nothing does not exist.


--------------------
YIPPIE!

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Re: absolutes? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6945049 -

A couple of people have weighed in with mathematics, and that's always a good choice. If we're just going to go charging ahead discussing "absolutes", we aren't going to get past our navels until we give the question some context. The three areas where I think the question will be most interesting are: 1) Are there absolutes in non-empirical/quasi-empirical inquiry? 2) Are there absolutes in empirical inquiry? 3) Are there moral absolutes?

I stay away from ethics, so I'll avoid (3). It is perhaps best to discuss (2) first. Empirical investigation is primarily concerned with the examination of information derived from sensory experience, the a posteriori. It's been beat to death, so I won't mention it in more than passing, but empirical investigation suffers from a problem of induction that prevents us from making any claim of an empirical nature with absolute certainty. There are several proposed remedies to this, and the most commonly accepted one is the pragmatic approach offered by Popper with his criterion of falsifiability. If we cannot positively verify something in the course of empirical investigation, we should at least be able to prove it wrong through experiment. Then, by rigging experiments so that they deliberately target any part of the theory which we are skeptical of, we can at least gain evidence for the accuracy of a theory by failing to disprove it despite several attempts to do so. We kick the theory's tires, so to speak.

Too much is made of the need for certainty in empirical investigation. Hard-line supporters of philosophical skepticism and solipsists create a false dichotomy in which we must either be entirely certain or abstain from making claims altogether. That's rediculous, and actually an informal fallacy. In any case, I don't know for certain that when I let go of a pen it will fall to the ground. But it would be foolish to claim otherwise, or to plead agnosticism, since a lifetime of experience suggests it will fall to the floor. What's more, stating that there is a problem of induction is something different from saying just how much of a problem of induction there is. We've developed language and intelligence. The existence of cognitive systemizability necessarily implies a certain degree of ontological systemicity. The world may not be perfectly stable, but it is at least stable enough to make thought possible, and thought is induction. So, even though we can't be entirely sure that our inferences are utterly inerrant, we are still at liberty to make them, and that is evidenced by the fact that you are now reading words on a screen.

Mathematics doesn't suffer from these kinds of problems. For starters, mathematics doesn't have the problem of induction of empirical inquiry. It's proofs are positive verifications, something that we cannot have in empirical investigations, and once a proof is given, the result is known to be true. There is, however, a price to pay for that. The thing that lends mathematics this certainty is its formal structure of axiomatics. Formal axiom systems aren't real in any way. They're created, in our heads, and accepted by convention. It doesn't even make sense to speak of the truth or falsehood of a mathematical axiom -- only relative consistency and independence from other axioms we might posit. We simply take the axioms for what they are, and see what kinds of results we can obtain from them. The uncertainty will creep in when we make the claim that the mathematics are in any way useful. When we apply a mathematical result to a physical problem, the hope is to give the physical process a quantitative description. This, as Einstein said, only gives us a certain measure of security, however. For mathematical theorems to be completely true, we must mean true with respect to the relevant axioms. Once we apply the mathematics, we are making a claim that the axioms model the real world somehow, and that the hypotheses of our theorems have been satisfied by the physical objects in question. To know that absolutely, we'd have to know the properties of those objects absolutely. So we can't gain absolute certainty there, but can gain more certainty than by experiment alone.

Now:
Huehuecoyotl said:
Then tell me....can one divide by zero and why not?



Multiplication and division are essentially the same process. In fact, in abstract mathematics we don't recognize the distinction and tend to think of everything as something analogous to multiplicaion by fractions. This happens in a study we call "Ring Theory". It's one of the structural theories of algebra and arithmetic, and one of the most widely pursued areas of mathematics. Algebra, being a formal manipulation of symbols, comes from structure. That's what makes the formal manipulation meaningful. That structure comes from the Ring Theory Axioms. Two important rules are the Left and Right Cancellation Laws for multiplication which, as a theorem, only hold in what we know as division rings (rings lacking zero divisors). If zero divisors are present, the structure of the ring is such that division cannot happen in a well-defined manner, if they are not present, then division can happen as a consequence of the left-right cancellation laws. I won't prove it here, but a rigorous proof is given in any book with a title that sounds like "An Introduction to Abstract Algebra".

In any case, the real numbers are a division ring. Actually, they're a very special kind of division ring called a field.

Edited by AlephOne (05/20/07 11:24 PM)

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Re: absolutes? [Re: AnarchoTrip]
    #6945060 -

Quote:
AnarchoTrip said:no, there is no such thing as nothing. Nothing is something, therefore it's not nothing. Even if we describe it as "the absence of something"... it's still something. White is apparently the abscence of colour, but isn't white something? Nothing does not exist.



That's a conflation of symbolic equality with self-reference. If you get the sense that you're being clever, you're probably being clever.

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Re: absolutes? [Re: AnarchoTrip]
    #6945174 -

Quote:
Using your example, why can't there be an absolute truth for seeing the trees, an absolutee truth for seeing the forest, and an absoolute truth for seeing them both together as one? Also, why do you feel that experiences and transcenion are important? I interpret these activities as a process to achieve a goal. We're transcending to achieve something, are we not? Nirvana, harmony, awareness--whatever you want to call it, it's a goal... it's the ideal accomplishment, it's thee absolute truth.




You initial statement:
Are there absolute truths? Can everything be proven absolutely? Anything from the existence to gravity, the emotion of love, or a philosophical idea... can these all be proven absolutely true? Does relativity provide truths?

You were obviously speaking about something that can be proven. Proves relate to logic matters, not to a transcendental, spiritual truth. Now you said:
why can't there be an absolute truth for seeing the trees, an absolutee truth for seeing the forest, and an absoolute truth for seeing them both together as one?
These are multiple absolute truths. Can't you see the contradiction in all that? :strokebeard:

and then you said again:
it's the ideal accomplishment, it's thee absolute truth.

If you make that statement come with solid proof that it can be explained as an absolute truth (that applies to everyone, in every circumstance)... which comes in contradiction to earlier statement in which you invoked the existence of multiple universal truths :lol: :nut:

Quote:
And even if the ultimate goal is unimportant, only the process of achieving this goal, then the ultimate truth is experiences and transcension.



Again, please come with prove the existence of the ultimate truth.
You might start a new religion :shrug:

Quote:
The "antibiotic" or whatever example you want is the absolute truth. We need to find these absolutes.



It is the absolute truth (though I'm having doubts about that too since not everybody who has pimples can cure them with antibiotics)... but just for the sake of the argument we'll say it is... still it remains the absolute truth regarding pimples and only pimples... try to apply the usage of antibiotic to ending a war or treating serial killers :cool:
It won't work, right? :smile:
Then all those other issues will need a new "absolute" truth... which will AGAIN create a multitude ob absolute truths :lol:. And we go again to what I said earlier. There are many truths that can't be reduced to a single one that can work as a "one hit wonder".
And again, where is the absolute of the absolute truth? :sherlock:
The search continues and since you can't come up with proves your affirmation is futile. And the argument that "maybe in the future" won't work since it's just an assumption.

Quote:
First, wanting to find an universal answer is not necessarily only out of fear. You previously talked about experiences and transcension... are these actions out of fear? Is curiousity similar to fear?



It is out of a NEED. A need can turn into fear. When one finds awareness expansion, one feels the need to go deeper and deeper. It might be cause by fear, but, in my opinion in very few cases since consciousness is a catalyst for freeing oneself from misery and small thinking. So one will want to go further in consciousness expansion out of pleasure :smirk:
When one tries to find a universal truth that can be proven, chances are that one if doing that out of a certain degree of frustration or desperation, which are somehow linked to fear.
We are all different and we can't have the same way or/and in the same time, namely, we all have our own rhythm. If we have our own rhythm we have different needs and different lessons to learn so we don't need the SAME answer.

Quote:
Second, I certainly agree to the statement 'everything in life is multifaceted,' but I disagree with your conclusion. Everything in multifaceted, therefore there are multiple absolutes. I'm not saying that there is some mystical number that is relateable to everything (like the movie pi or 23)... I'm saying that for every situation/problem/etc. in life, there is an absolute truth/solution.




Again this comes in contradiction to you original post where you were arguing about the existence of ONE absolute truth which can anwer to all the answers such as: Anything from the existence to gravity, the emotion of love, or a philosophical idea

Quote:
Unless one were to be complete and ultimately relative to every situation (which is impossible), one is a singularitist. We can be relative to specific situations, like political issues (abortion, gay marriage, etc.), but then we're stating an absolute opinion: "I'm okay with whatever you decide is best with you." It's still an absolute-- it's still a singular opinion. It's impossible to be pro-life and pro-choice... like being black and white. We may be more understanding/compassionate/tolerant of other opinions... but we all have our singular opinion.



You were giving me the cancer example earlier and now you're saying that the universal truth doesn't apply to what I emphasized from your quote (i.e. abortion, marriage) :what:
How do these differ to finding an absolute truth regarding cancer? :tongue:
Please make it more clear for me because you totally lost me here.
I understand that since you were not talking about abortion and marriage and the like, you were not referring to material truths... which made me think that it has something to do with the spiritual realm. And if it is related to the spiritual realm, then what cancer has to do there?
And even more... if spirituality is what you had in mind, then how can you find a universal truth for spirituality that can also be proven - of course as being valid for everyone and for every case since it is well... UNIVERSAL? :rolleyes:

Quote:
Your belief that being an absolutionist provokes war and chaos is your singular absolute belief on absolutionsist--is it not? Therefore, you are an absolutionist, no?



It is not a belief it is an observation and I have proves to sustain that. Look at what fundamentalists do. Simple as that.  :bigjoint:

And to make the issues more clear, this thread is not about my personal beliefs so your argument is null. It is a thread about presenting ideas (preferable based on some evidence which until now you lack of) and all my proves sustain that there is no such thing as a universal truth.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: absolutes? [Re: AnarchoTrip]
    #6946079 -

1/0 ?

In reality that is really simple:
I have a biig strawberry cake. Now, nobody wants to eat it ? I have to throw it away or feed it to the pigs. In this case, I prefer to divide it with 1 (me) :lol:

Math in theory makes a schmuck out of it, because every division with a divisor < 1 and divisor >= 0 goes into the fantasy of reality. Yes, it goes into the real magic of 'summoning' and fantastic speculation, haha
For example, if I have to share my cake with half a person, I have to magically summon another cake out of the nothingness. Bravo, how real :rolleyes: !
:lol:
So much for the absolutes of mathematics, which have no relation to reality anymore :rofl2:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Re: absolutes? [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #6946676 -

BlueCoyote said:
1/0 ?

In reality that is really simple:
I have a biig strawberry cake. Now, nobody wants to eat it ? I have to throw it away or feed it to the pigs. In this case, I prefer to divide it with 1 (me) :lol:

Math in theory makes a schmuck out of it, because every division with a divisor < 1 and divisor >= 0 goes into the fantasy of reality. Yes, it goes into the real magic of 'summoning' and fantastic speculation, haha
For example, if I have to share my cake with half a person, I have to magically summon another cake out of the nothingness. Bravo, how real :rolleyes: !
:lol:
So much for the absolutes of mathematics, which have no relation to reality anymore :rofl2:



:lol:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: absolutes? [Re: AnarchoTrip]
    #6947119 -

If absolute means independent of external parameters, then only logical tautologies can claim to be absolute truths. But what counts as a logical tautology depends on the axioms of logic, or if you prefer, on the underlying intuitions that made us carbon units choose those particular axioms in the first place. So if you regard the axioms of logic as external parameters to the statement under consideration, then even logical tautologies are non-absolute truths.

But this doesn't make the word absolute meaningless. Any statement about "truths" is conditioned on some agreed-upon system of logic, and within that system there can be lots of absolute truths, as long as you consider the axioms of that system of logic as axioms rather than as external parameters.

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