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OfflineLearyfan
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Feeling of being watched....
    #621564 - 04/28/02 07:48 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Just before the "energy" thread appeared on this forum, I was planning on typing up an essay on why I think sensing someones energy is evidence of a "soul". Well, the athiests shot that down, saying that you're just either smelling their pheramones or you're just paying attention to body language that tells the story.

Now, I have another belief I want to share. I believe that I can look at someone who has their back to me, and make them turn around and look.

They can feel my eyes on them. How can science explain this?



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Mp3 of the month: The Loose Enz - The Black Door



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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Feeling of being watched.... [Re: Learyfan]
    #621575 - 04/28/02 08:07 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

They can feel my eyes on them. How can science explain this?
If true, science would have no explanantion. I will attempt to find the reference, but this was tested some years back with the lookers and lookees being separated by sound-proof glass. The testers were unable to ascertain when they were being looked at.



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The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineJustFootsteps
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Re: Feeling of being watched.... [Re: Learyfan]
    #621965 - 04/29/02 05:26 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

yay, i love it when people confirm stuff :smile:

i have no double blind reconstituted Maltesian progressive humpbacked case study to base this on, but the fact of the shared stare often begins in my exp. with one party or the other delivering a probing glance while altogether out of sight, causing the other person to look around - if both people are open the share will start a-thumpin'.


--------------------
in peace,
just footsteps
http://www.whyvegan.org


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Invisibleraytrace
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Re: Feeling of being watched.... [Re: Swami]
    #622016 - 04/29/02 08:13 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

no personal experience, but i have given you a reference about this being true in another thread a while ago.

(Rupert Sheldrake & Matthew Fox, "natural grace", p.79)

Sheldrake : "I've devised a very simple experiment to test whether or not people can tell when they are being looked at. You look at someone from behind, or you don't look at them, according to a randomized schedule. They have to guess whether or not they're being looked at. This test has now been done thousands of times and the results are clear. This effect really does seem to exist, implying that our psychic world, our mental world, isn't just inside us, it extends around us."

you considered him a liar. ok.

please, provide your reference if possible.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Feeling of being watched.... [Re: raytrace]
    #622077 - 04/29/02 10:43 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

you considered him a liar. ok.
Huh?


From Sheldrake's Website:

The feeling of being looked at from behind is remarkably common. So is the experience of looking at someone from behind and finding that they turn round. Surveys show that about 90% of the population have personally experienced these phenomena.

The score in looking trials is usually above the 50% chance level, often as high as 60%, whereas that in not-looking trials is close to the chance level of 50%.


So according to Sheldrake:

1. People cannot tell when they are not being looked at.

2. Assuming the average hit for being looked at is 56% and 90% of the population believes that they have this ability, that means that 35% of the population (a HUGE number) are deceiving themselves.

3. "The score in looking trials is usually above the 50% chance..." Then that means that some amount of the time, the starees actually guess worse than chance as would be expected in any guessing game.

4. The sample size of this test is not very statistically significant.

This hardly sounds convincing; and this does not even take into account any possible bias.



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The proof is in the pudding.


Edited by Swami (04/29/02 10:46 AM)


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OfflineJPAtanat
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Re: Feeling of being watched.... [Re: Swami]
    #622089 - 04/29/02 11:09 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

i dont reallty have any personal anecdotes, but it seems like this is the kind of thing that scientific experimentation would spoil. I mean, being put in a room seperated by sound proof glass, and being asked over and over again if they think they are being looked at can hardly be compared to an instictive, visceral experience in a real life situation; my opinion.


Peace.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Feeling of being watched.... [Re: JPAtanat]
    #622099 - 04/29/02 11:27 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

but it seems like this is the kind of thing that scientific experimentation would spoil
This is such a lame excuse for failure. Let's do the logic one more time:

Assumption A: A sixth sense actually exists.
Results of test A: It fails under scientific scrutiny.

Assumption B: A sixth sense does not exist.
Results of test B: It fails under scientific scrutiny.

See my second quote.


Let's do another experiment under controlled conditions. When not looking, someone taps you on the shoulder. My psychic prediction is, that unless you are wearing some heavy duty shoulder pads, you will get it correct 100% of the time; even under the watchful eye of those pesky scientists.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineLearyfan
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Re: Feeling of being watched.... [Re: Learyfan]
    #622158 - 04/29/02 12:53 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Maybe i'm pushing my luck here, but I have an example.

When i'm deep into my mushroom trip, and i'm sitting there and I look over at my cat who is in the kitchen eating her food with her right side to me. Now she's eating her food, not paying attention to me. Then, without moving, I look at her, and concentrate on glaring at her for a moment, and then she'll jerk as if she's been shocked, and look up to see me, and then get weirded out, and leave the room. I've done this many times, with animals as well as humans. It works much better when i'm tripping or tweaking on adderall. My energy level is cranked up to 10, and I am at the controls of my ship.

When you're in the room with me, or if i'm far away from you when i'm on shrooms, and I look at you, you will probably turn around and look at me. My energy level gets turned from a drip to a gush. Girls love me when i'm in this state of mind because girls love power. When I am on shrooms I am the most powerful person in the room no matter where I am. I feel that this power gives me the ability to make a person, at the very least, turn around.

I know i'm really pushing my luck here, but might I suggest that conducting this experiment in some scientificly control experimentation room doesn't produce accurate results all of the time. When they did LSD testing in the 60's in a cold scientificly controled environment, the results were skued because that environment isn't the kind of place where you're going to produce good results. But, I know I couldn't possibly be right, so i'll conceed "defeat" right now.



--------------------
--------------------------------


Mp3 of the month: The Loose Enz - The Black Door



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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Feeling of being watched.... [Re: Learyfan]
    #622211 - 04/29/02 02:04 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

When they did LSD testing in the 60's in a cold scientificly controled environment, the results were skued because that environment isn't the kind of place where you're going to produce good results.
Am trying to put together a So Cal gathering next month out in Joshua Tree National Forest. Intend on doing some experiments there with willing participants. A natural desert setting under the stars will be quite far from the laboratory. I will keep scrupulous notes and report back here.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


Edited by Swami (04/29/02 02:14 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: Feeling of being watched.... [Re: Swami]
    #622219 - 04/29/02 02:06 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Swami,
"... this was tested some years back with the lookers and lookees being separated by sound-proof glass. The testers were unable to ascertain when they were being looked at."

A test such as this is flawed. Not everything can pass through glass, especially soundproof glass. Glass can act as a barrier to other things besides sound. How do we know that the communication they were trying to verify (other than sound) was not physically blocked or muted by the glass? Ear plugs and sound proof ear muffs would have been a better choice because the barrier would have been more specific. Of course, there could be olfactory clues or something else that has a normal explanation. A better test might have been to selectively block out certain known senses and compile data from each.


Edited by Anonymous (04/29/02 02:08 PM)


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OfflineJPAtanat
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Re: Feeling of being watched.... [Re: Swami]
    #622232 - 04/29/02 02:20 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

No, fool. It is not a lame excuse for failure at all. You have no problem taking events completely out of context and isolating them, and expect the results of that sort of testing to be some sort of fact.
I, and many others, do not buy that. "Scientific scrutiny" is not the same as the real world.
So let's not do the logic one more time.

Lets also not do another experiment under controlled conditions. How about, instead, the next time you shoot someone the piercing glance, and they turn around and make eye contact, ask them why they turned around. Take note of their response. I will do this, and I encourage others to do the same. I don't need no fucking scientist telling me what's right and what's not. Then, if I believe it, I believe it - you dig?

Peace.


Edited by JPAtanat (04/29/02 03:10 PM)


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OfflineCatalysis
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Re: Feeling of being watched.... [Re: JPAtanat]
    #622261 - 04/29/02 03:10 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

"Scientific scrutiny" doesnt mean that we have to totally understand how something works.  It simply asks the question "does this work?".  As a chemist i can tell you that, in science, we utilize an immense number of phenomena which we have little or no understanding of.  If it works, we can use it scientifically.

The questions i have are; does this work? can you tell me how to use it? are you using this skill beneficially?

If these questions cant be answered, then the existance of such phenomina doesnt matter and the debate is pointless.

Sorry, i dont mean to be negative.  i think that you are all very intelligent and have some very good ideas. i am just giving my viewpoint. 

P.S. Please explain what led you to make the assumption that im an atheist. thanks :smile:


--------------------
:egyptian:


Edited by Catalysis (04/29/02 03:18 PM)


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OfflineJPAtanat
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Re: Feeling of being watched.... [Re: Catalysis]
    #622274 - 04/29/02 03:28 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

I agree with you, however, asking if something works in the real world is different from asking if it works in a controlled environment, especially under the prying eyes of some guys with clipboards.

My idea of this sort od phenomena is that it is a collection of many - hundreds, perhaps even millions - subtle perceptions that would cause someone to turn their head, or whatever. Maybe I am wrong about that, but either way it seems like you cannot take an event like that and take it out of the original environment, and expect to get worthwhile results. Furthermore, results of any kind apart from your own experience are worthless. For some things this is not true, but for something like this, personal experience is paramount. There may be heaps of 'evidence' that supports the existence (or non-existence) of such a thing, but if you have experience to the contraryt, it is useless.
So:
Does it work? Personal experience.
How to use it? No, this cannot be answered. Maybe you meant how does it work? Either way it doesn't really matter.
Are you using the skill beneficially? Don't know how to answer that question

For the most part, I agree this debate is pointless. At any rate I would definitely say that citing scientific evidence here is meaningless.

You don't have to apologize, I don't think you were being negative at all. I thank you for your response.


Peace.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Feeling of being watched.... [Re: JPAtanat]
    #622392 - 04/29/02 06:35 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

No, fool.
From dictionary.com
fool: One who is deficient in judgment
judgement: The capacity to form an opinion by distinguishing and evaluating

Rephrased: One who is deficient in the capacity to form an opinion by distinguishing and evaluating.

Which one of us is actually trying to evaluate an event?

You have no problem taking events completely out of context and isolating them, and expect the results of that sort of testing to be some sort of fact.
Ahem. Let's look at the original poster's COMPLETE thought:

I believe that I can look at someone who has their back to me, and make them turn around and look.
I took nothing out of context. I must have missed some part that you imaginarily inserted as to what set of circumstances are or aren't necessary for this cognitive power to function.

"Scientific scrutiny" is not the same as the real world.
Whatever that means. All attempts at understanding something try to limit the "noise" or number of variables, so that one can can distill the essence of what is or is not affecting the experience. Forget the word scientific and insert "independant observer". I would happily do this verificationon on a crowded downtown street (the "real world"), the zoo or wherever you choose.

Try walking behind a woman on a lone street at 11PM and see if she doesn't turn around to see who is behind her. You might get close to a 100% "hit" rate.

I don't need no fucking scientist telling me what's right and what's not.
A double negative means that you DO need a fornicating scientist. Now you have switched to right and wrong? Eye stare recognition has suddenly become a moral issue? The correct phrasing is verified / unverified.

Then, if I believe it, I believe it - you dig?
Oh, yes! I dig the believer's need to keep his precious fables intact and that he will respond with expletives and emotionalism rather than face facts.



--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisibleraytrace
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Re: Feeling of being watched.... [Re: Swami]
    #622426 - 04/29/02 07:18 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Assuming the average hit for being looked at is 56% and 90% of the population believes that they have this ability, that means that 35% of the population (a HUGE number) are deceiving themselves.

hehehe... this is called a "sophism"


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Feeling of being watched.... [Re: raytrace]
    #622450 - 04/29/02 07:46 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Assuming the average hit for being looked at is 56% and 90% of the population believes that they have this ability, that means that 35% of the population (a HUGE number) are deceiving themselves.

hehehe... this is called a "sophism"


Oops! The Swamiji made a HUGE error in favor of the believers. I got the math way wrong on this. As the expected hit rate for chance would be 50%, yet the testing (flawed or not) shows 56% have some ability, then that would mean that 50/56 don't have any ability.

50/56 = 89% of the believers are in error not 35%. 90% * 89% or 80% of the entire population is mistaken. Note that the skeptics help to drop the percentage from 89% to 80%. Where would we be without them?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisibleraytrace
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Re: Feeling of being watched.... [Re: Swami]
    #622464 - 04/29/02 07:55 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

and definitely swami can be an amazing sophist...


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Invisibleraytrace
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Re: Feeling of being watched.... [Re: raytrace]
    #622471 - 04/29/02 08:01 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

anyway, anyone interested in Sheldrake's staring experiment:

http://www.sheldrake.org/experiments/staring/staring_experiment.html


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OfflineJPAtanat
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Re: Feeling of being watched.... [Re: Swami]
    #622561 - 04/29/02 09:33 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

You said very little of any value in your response Swami. But I will address it anyway.
1. Defining fool added nothing to this discussion.

2. We are both trying to evaluate an event, but your are trying to evaluate an event in a controlled environment, and take the evidence collected from that as your own view. I wish to do the research in real life situations, and I will be the judge of whether I think it exists or not, since ultimately no one else can be.

3. Perhaps you took nothing out of context in your post. But the experiment which you were citing as evidence, or perhaps as your stance on the situation, takes the event in question out of context. Of course I think that you knew that already, but you simply wished to call me on something irrelevant to "sidestep" what I was really trying to say.

4. By scientific scrutiny I meant scientific experimentation. You probably knew that already too, but are too in the habit of calling people on semantics. Great way to make an argument, Swam. I think I made it clear in my other post why I think experimentation in a controlled environment would be ineffective. YES, what I was suggesting was that you yourself go into public places and try to find out some answers. If you can't take the word of people here, you shouldn't take the word of any scientist either. Like I said, it's meaningless in the face of personal experience.

5. Thank you for, yet again, pointing out something irrelevant, that was not written for the sake of having proper grammar, but was written for the sake of communicating my emotion. Apparently you condemn emotion. Perhaps because it is not rooted in any 'facts.'

6. Which leads me to: "Oh, yes! I dig the believer's need to keep his precious fables intact and that he will respond with expletives and emotionalism rather than face facts. " I don't know what fables you are reffering to. The only thing I have said with regard to the existence of this 'thing' is that I though it was probably made up of many many subtle percptions which cannot be isolated or taken out of their orignal context, and I also mentioned that I could be dead wrong. Yes, I can see what your idea of a 'fable' is. Or perhaps I should copy down a definition of fable from a dictionary - would that help out this discussion at all? All those expletavies and emotionalism! Whatever... And finally, I do not see any facts to face.

I wish you would stop wasting my time with these meaningless arguments.


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OfflinecHeMiCaLbLuE
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Re: Feeling of being watched.... [Re: Learyfan]
    #622597 - 04/29/02 10:34 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

for me people always stare at me when i get close and yes i do the same, its natural. If you really think you are detecting energy, then you have to be able to see it to confirm it, or else you are only applying a theory of individual perception. I get those same feelings that i can know stuff about people, but i say if you really want to know how acurated you are, go talk to that person?


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insanity with a plan, a plan to stop exercising truth as compared to breathing thin air, but to experience truth as all there is to experience, for what do i not already have that exsists? All i can do is enjoy the ride.


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