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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics > Mushroom Cultivation
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Substrate Nutrients
    #5780075 -

Hello folks, new to growing and relatively new to this site. Happy i found it! And i'm glad to see alot of good people on the message boards.

Alright, so i got to readin' about the scientific processes of mushrooms and their chemical compositions, and i was thinking about what would make an optimal substrate.

Here's my logic behind this. The basic components in psylocibin are Hydrogen, oxygen, carbon, nitrogen, and phosphorous. I'm not under the impression that any other elements are used in significant amounts during the mushroom's synthesis of psylocibin.

So...
water has the oxygen and hydrogen
brown rice would have plenty of carbon and nitrogen, and I imagine it has to have some quantities of phosphorous.

How practical and beneficial would it be to add for example, almonds, which have a relatively high phosphorus content, to a substrate?

Has anyone tried something like this?

Any comments, data, or outright guesses would be much appreciated.

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Re: Substrate Nutrients [Re: SpaceMushrooms]
    #5780102 -

I like your thinking.. I've had many thoughts about adding dif. things to my substrate. My thoughts was to add some super thrive, altho I have no idea what shroomz use and all that. Almonds? I would love to see you make some Almond flour and add it to the BRF. Try it in just one jar. And take notes on dif. growth patterns in all your jars. Then share the info :smile:


--------------------
Going to miss the PNW gatherings.

I'm not here trying to make anyone feel stupid or to make myself feel good by putting ppl down. I am just here to help fellow shroomerites in there grows. I do this to keep my own knowledge fresh, and to help everyone succeed!

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Re: Substrate Nutrients [Re: SpaceMushrooms]
    #5780114 -

My first thought is that it's not as simple as you say. First, You say other things are not used in significant amounts, but significant from what perspective? It is either used or it's not right? Second, I'm not convinced it's just about various elements. Organisms can't usually just take whatever element they need out of any molecule that contains it. Case in point, we can't breath water, and we can't just eat dirt, or some mixture of various elements that happens to contain all the elements found in our carbohydrates, proteins, fats, and vitamins, minerals. Organisms need certain forms of molecules in order to convert and extract what it likes. Also, mushrooms are not psilocybin factories, they are more concerned with procreation than they are with producing psilocybin. So giving them the nutrients needed to create psilocybin would not necessarily produce potent mushrooms.


--------------------
Nothing you can know that isn't known.
Nothing you can see that isn't shown.
Nowhere you can be that isn't where you're meant to be.
It's easy.
All you need is love.
- The Beatles

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Re: Substrate Nutrients [Re: tallgreen]
    #5780193 -

well, ill just add that if there were some sort of "super substrate" out there, we'd all be using it :smile:


--------------------
To get really high is to forget yourself. And to forget yourself is to see everything else. And to see everything else is to become an understanding molecule in evolution, a conscious tool of the universe. And I think every human being should be a conscious tool of the universe. . . .

-JG

i really am glad you came back to us instead of taking the other path. *hug*

-A_S (RIP your final words to me will never be forgotten)



Don't fuck with the laughing jesus.

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Re: Substrate Nutrients [Re: coda]
    #5780208 -

coda said:
well, ill just add that if there were some sort of "super substrate" out there, we'd all be using it :smile:


not if it hasn't been created yet...

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Re: Substrate Nutrients [Re: Yamidude]
    #5780289 -

Yep, first off organisms don't just take bare elements and go from there as was mentioned.

That being said, there's been a lot of discussion and speculation that the amino acid trypotphan is the basic building block for psilosin.  This hasn't been proven one way or another, and results for purposefully adding tryptophan to a substrate are sketchy at best.  If you'd like to play though, l-tryptophan dietary suppliments are available over the counter (they were banned for a while, and recently allowed back on the market.)  Trypatmine HCL is supposedly another step closer, half way between tryptophan and psilosin, but is a harder to obtain chemical, and again no conclusive results when using it.  I tend to lean towards the tryptophan idea, as its what would normally be found in "food" for mushrooms, and makes sense from a chemistry standpoint.  Another idea for you to play with is soy flour, which is extremely high in tryptophan.  I can go into a whole lot more detail here which leads me to believe why tryptophan as it naturally occurs is best but I already feel a long post coming on.  :smile:

So far we're talking about psilosin.  As you mention, psilocybin adds phosphorus, and that's gotta come from somewhere.  I've been scratching my head over this one as its not often brought into the equation in these potency discussions.  We do know in general manure (hpoo) produces pretty good potency on average.  Well.. manure has high phosphorus content.  Also pretty widely accepted as a potency booster is quinoa... some point to its tryptophan content, but nobody ever seems to mention its also exceptionally high in phosphorus.  Coincidence?  Maybe... maybe not though.

Finally the nitrogen... we know a certain nitrogen content is needed, not just from a potency standpoint, but it seems when you get the nitrogen right you get very healthy and abundant fruits.  Again this is where hpoo is good, because it naturally contains close to the perfect amounts of nitrogen.  Keep in mind its not a "more is better" thing, its "just enough" is better.  Too much is detrimental.  If you want to experiment here as I have, using coffee in your substrates (either as a diluted solution, or even coffee grounds themselves mixed in with bulk substrates) adds a steady supply of nitrogen.  Other things such as kelp and blood meal have also been used for this purpose.

Remember lots of this is speculation so please don't mistake it as fact... we simply don't know just yet.  Another thing to remember is in your studies, www.nutritiondata.com is an awesome resource for finding the exact content of different things we can use as or in substrates.... best of luck :thumbup:

P.S.  I'd still like to add that finding the "ultimate" substrate would do no more than give your grow the potential to produce the maximum amount of actives it can.  It still depends on the genetics of the mushrooms to a very very large extent.  Case in point: pan cyans for example are able to produce several times more actives even though we're doing nothing special to their substrates...  If your substrate is deficient in a particular building block to the actives, it won't be able to produce, so adding that particular ingredient back into the mix can help.  But just because there's lots of building blocks available, doesn't mean its going to produe lots... its only going to use as much as its genetically programmed (and its growing conditions) allows it to.


--------------------
Cloning the easy way with LC - newbie friendly pictorial tek

All your answers are here!

Edited by creamcorn (06/22/06 12:04 PM)

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Re: Substrate Nutrients [Re: creamcorn]
    #5781020 -

hehe, its never as simple as it seems, but thats the beauty of it. Thanx for the info.

I figure i'll do a few experiments with substrates just for shits and giggles, who knows, maybe something good could come out of it.

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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics > Mushroom Cultivation
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