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Re: Microsoft - your opinions please? [Re: Seuss]
    #5512287 -

Seuss said:
> but ms has played an important role in the computer evolution and has made it easy for everyone to use a computer

This is not true. The "ease of computing" was stolen from Apple, which in turn was stolen from Xerox.


well some aspects of it , sure, but not everything. following your logic linux and almost all gui os for the personal user steals from ms again. imo ms has done their os more userfriendly than apple ever did.

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Re: Microsoft - your opinions please? [Re: giz]
    #5513420 -

When I first started using computers I was fascinated with them and they became my #1 hobby. I loved to tinker and figure out how they worked. I despised Apple computers for the very constrictive operating system that they had. It was hard to do anything interesting with Apple's operating system. I loved DOS. I loved how it was so customizable and you could do tons of stuff with it. I loved how esoteric it was. I would spend hours writing programs, playing with batch files, etc..

I eventually lost my interest in tinkering with computers. Where there used to be wonder and interest now there is only impatience. I don't give a fuck about doing anything with computers anymore. I just want them to accomplish what I am trying to do. I want to access the internet, write a letter every once in a while, and that's about it. Computers are no longer a hobby for me...now they are just tools that I use to accomplish various tasks. My current view of computers could be compared to how most people view their automobiles. Most people don't give a shit about how the car works or why it works. Most people just want it to get them where they need to go. And when the thing breaks down it inconveniences your life.

Microsoft started out with a highly customizable shell-based operating system. Now they have a pretty and easy-to-use graphical interface. Control has largely been taken out of the hands of the user with the latest incarnations of Windows. I don't mind this at all. So, Microsoft's evolution has actually coincided with my own computer life and computer desires quite well.

My hatred of working with the nitty-gritty details of computers is why I have not jumped on the Linux bandwagon. I just have no interest in controlling and customizing my computer like that. I just want to turn the damn thing on and not have to use my brain. Windows works well for this basic approach.

Edited by RandalFlagg (04/13/06 07:32 PM)

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Re: Microsoft - your opinions please? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #5513490 -

^ agreed. I dont even have time to smoke weed, let alone tinker with an OS. In all my years of using windows I have really only had a problem once, and it was fixed easily.

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Re: Microsoft - your opinions please? [Re: DieCommie]
    #5514166 -

Microsoft allows a user with little or no knowledge on how computers work to successfully complete tasks with a point and a click, creating a two finger keyboard poking monkey. In the end technology as a whole suffers, we are not pushed in daily life to deeper roles in computer science. An opinion? Maybe.


--------------------
- grimR


-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
http://egolost.com 
"I am already given to the power that rules my fate. And I cling to nothing, so I will have nothing to defend. I have no thoughts, so I will see. I fear nothing, so I will remember myself."

- Don Juan teachings

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Re: Microsoft - your opinions please? [Re: grimR]
    #5514255 -

yes, that is true as far as installation goes, but windows users are bound to have to "maintain" their system and put forth way more effort into this than if they used another OS. I'd rather spend a day or two getting everything in order and then not to have to worry about anything...rather than spend 45 mins installing and then having to worry about viruses and spyware and security holes and registry foul-ups and defragmenting perpetually from then on. I'm lazy like that, I guess.

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Re: Microsoft - your opinions please? [Re: grimR]
    #5514928 -

grimR said:
Microsoft allows a user with little or no knowledge on how computers work to successfully complete tasks with a point and a click, creating a two finger keyboard poking monkey. In the end technology as a whole suffers, we are not pushed in daily life to deeper roles in computer science. An opinion? Maybe.


I don't understand how technology is suffering by what Microsoft is doing. If computer nerds out there don't like Microsoft's products they can go with other options (Apple's O.S., Linux, etc..).

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Re: Microsoft - your opinions please? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #5515191 -

I wasn't referring to x windows or software developed for use on unix based os's I was speaking on the OS itself, using the shell/commmand line. Force yourself to do everything through the command line for a year, you will learn more about the ins and outs than gnome or kde could ever teach you. :smile:

I don't think the average windows user would know where to start if you sent them something in source code format.

Linux has its advantages over spyware and virii being that it can complete tasks without being logged in as root. It's not just a coincidence that it's hard to find a virus for Linux/UNIX, most users would have the sense not to run something as root unless it was trusted software.

Apple OS X is nice too, nothing beats a good bsd core.

I chose "bad for progress" in the poll because windows never forces you to use a keyboard other than typing a name a company and maybe an ip address. If the majority knows no more than Click OK, Click Cancel and Click Install, more advanced programs won't be available to the world at large. That's my opinion, with demand there is a supply, and when there is an easy way out most take it.

I take pride in being able to safeguard myself on the internet using proxies and encryption both on the connection side and the storage side. It's something everyone should learn in this day and age of warrantless taps and spy programs.

Not trying to put down all Windows users... none of them are forced to take their education further, the ones who do have my respect.


--------------------
- grimR


-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
http://egolost.com 
"I am already given to the power that rules my fate. And I cling to nothing, so I will have nothing to defend. I have no thoughts, so I will see. I fear nothing, so I will remember myself."

- Don Juan teachings

Edited by grimR (04/14/06 09:26 AM)

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Re: Microsoft - your opinions please? [Re: grimR]
    #5515487 -

grimR said:
I chose "bad for progress" in the poll because windows never forces you to use a keyboard other than typing a name a company and maybe an ip address. If the majority knows no more than Click OK, Click Cancel and Click Install, more advanced programs won't be available to the world at large. That's my opinion, with demand there is a supply, and when there is an easy way out most take it.



There's nothing wrong with making stuff simple.  Most people don't want to sit around and learn the nitty-gritty details of how to make a computer dance.  There are enough computer geeks out there that all of these in-depth and complicated O.S.'s and programs will get created.  But most of the rest of us just don't care.

I don't think Microsoft is hindering progress at all.  How does what they do affect your ability to tinker with your computer?  You don't have to use their stuff if you don't want to.  You can throw some obscure version of Linux on your computer, network a bunch of shit together, and do all kinds of tech crap to your heart's content.  How is Microsoft stopping you from doing stuff like that? 

Hm....what would I rather do on a Saturday night?  Go out drinking and flirting with girls or sit at home and become a Linux master?  Tough choice... :smirk:

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Re: Microsoft - your opinions please? [Re: grimR]
    #5515519 -

I chose airstrike. Not literally an airstrike mind you but I really feel Microsoft is a rogue company which ought to be subjected to a huge lawsuit, not to part them with their money but to undo their evil at their own expense.

Some time ago Windows had an update, like it perpetually needs them. Suddenly Outhouse Express (the email client) did not allow external email services to be integrated into it anymore. If you wanted that, you from then on had to *pay* Microsoft to get the service which until then had been free. The company used the updates as a TROJAN to haul something in that was detrimental to the user.

And it does far more things like that.

My major beef with Microsoft is incompatibility, or rather: DELIBERATE INCOMPATIBILITIES built in to fight the competition at your expense, and at the expense of progress.

Microsoft codes BAD HTML. If you trust them blindly your website is a *gem* when viewed by Internot Exploder, but it looks like shit if viewed with Firefox or other browsers. Deliberate incompatibility, making the product of *your work* look bad to other people to punish them for not buying Microsuck.

They get you to buy a product. This product is BLOATED which makes it prone to fail and to remedy that you need to get updates from them (which sometimes reboot you on the spot :mad:) And no matter how they update and servicepack its still inferior. Then they stop updating to let their product decompose and you're ready to buy a new version of their product.

I've seen somebody graciously dance through the inner workings of a piece of software i handed him, a marvellous sight. Can't Microsoft spy with their little eye from Linux and create something that does not suck?
Oh, they can. But no, they won't. It would break the vicious circle of artificial dependence they created for their users.

Like a heroin dealer they dont sell the product to you but rather they sell you to the product.

Aggressive lawsuits await those who want to bridge incompatibility bridges towards Windows. They tie programs into the windows package to get a foothold on other areas.

And what is in those coded information packets my computer docilely takes and sends to Redmont? Some time ago a website showed me a MS backdoor on my harddrive that contained just about everything I know to have deleted :eek:

Windows is forced onto you if you buy package deal-customized computers at Dell and other companies, even local ones.

Et cetera, et cetera, ad nauseum.

If it were up to me MS would be forced towards intercompatibility, and yes they can make a buck off that. I would screw Bill Gates out of 49 of his 50 G$ and use that surplus to undo the damage towards progress and to have the experts provide some *real* updates.
And here's something: make sure people who work for Microsoft in developing nations actually get a decent paycheck.


At the moment I'm still chained to Windows but I'm trying to break free of the bondage. I learned computing under Windows and so I have to learn how to use a computer anew.

Currently I'm playing with Knoppix, a file you can download, put on CD, shove in your drive, reboot and you're on a Linux computer, without the risk of doing actual damage! I can't get it to connect to the intarweb yet but what I *am* seeing looks rather good.


--------------------
Omnicyclion.org
personal empowerment for the world

:nyan: LGBT - Love God Before Tradition :nyan:

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Re: Microsoft - your opinions please? [Re: Asante]
    #5515786 -

I wish I had M$ stock.. With Vista coming out, you know every school and business and most people with a computer are going to upgrade.

Other than that, I am not a big fan.

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Re: Microsoft - your opinions please? [Re: Asante]
    #5515787 -

Does "Windows" suck when it comes to security and stability?  Yes. 

Are there other operating systems that are superior?  Yes. 

Has Microsoft done some shady stuff in the past?  Probably.

Do I give a shit?  No.  :shrug:

Edited by RandalFlagg (04/14/06 12:12 PM)

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Re: Microsoft - your opinions please? [Re: Asante]
    #5516225 -

well said :thumbup:

Quote:
And what is in those coded information packets my computer docilely takes and sends to Redmont? Some time ago a website showed me a MS backdoor on my harddrive that contained just about everything I know to have deleted


did you catch this: this ?

Quote:
Currently I'm playing with Knoppix, a file you can download, put on CD, shove in your drive, reboot and you're on a Linux computer, without the risk of doing actual damage! I can't get it to connect to the intarweb yet but what I *am* seeing looks rather good.


very cool. I started using linux by playing around with various live distros and then eventually I set up a dual-boot. I was kind of stuck on windows because that's what I was comfortable with. About a year ago, I decided to reformat my entire drive and go 100% linux. I havent looked back since...I have also installed linux on 2 friends computers and all of my immediate familys' computers - I set it all up so that everything is user-friendly where all they have to do is click to open a browser or media player or whatever. Their computers are now more secure, faster-running, and more user-friendly than with microsoft (where they had to worry about viruses, spyware, defragmenting, etc. - they dont even have to reboot, really).

one way I've learned what I know about using this OS is from visiting a couple messageboards. the ubuntu forums have been extremely helpful. I recommend.

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Re: Microsoft - your opinions please? [Re: Vvellum]
    #5517447 -

bi0 said:
disillusioned?


Well, here's my impression so far:

Photoshop > GIMP

MS Office > OpenOffice.org

The one open source program I've really been satisfied with is Firefox. I suppose I couldn't really get a feel for it until I try Linux, but every attempt I've made to install it has failed.


--------------------

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Re: Microsoft - your opinions please? [Re: Silversoul]
    #5517695 -

windows ports usually arent so good, but I installed both the gimp and oo.o on windows quite successfully and they fulfulled my needs both on windows and linux. pebcac, perhaps? keep in mind that crossoveroffice and wine do exist.

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Re: Microsoft - your opinions please? [Re: Silversoul]
    #5518020 -

Open Office is kinda crappy, but not any more so than MS Office, at least not while it's running on linux.  The Windows port seems to be a bit more buggy.  I have Photoshop running on this computer under both Wine and Crossover Office and both run flawlessly.  A lot of open source software does suck.  But some of it is simply awesome (the linux kernel, a lot of the GNU standard utilities, the GNU C compiler, python, apache, I could go on...).  It seems like the ratio of good to shitty software is about the same for closed- and open-source software (I'd put it at about 1:5 :wink: although the majority of software out there tends to be just mediocre).

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Re: Microsoft - your opinions please? [Re: Silversoul]
    #5519508 -

what linux distributions have you tried installing? what was the problem? i've installed ubuntu on 5 different systems now and every install has gone completely without a hitch.

i've used openoffice for about 2 years in linux and i've never had a problem with it. maybe the windows port isn't as good. i'd rather have access to photoshop than the GIMP (and adobe illustrator over inkscape). i can get a good deal on adobe creative suite through my school... about $370. inkscape and the gimp are free.

open source applications are certainly not always better than their proprietary cousins.

here's what i've generally found:

open source software better than proprietary counterpart:

ubuntu/debian > windows xp/2000
gaim > aol instant messenger
k3b > nero, roxio, etc
firefox > IE
nicotine > soulseek

these are 5 tools that i use very frequently and the free versions are much better than non-free.

worse:

gimp < photoshop
inkscape < illustrator

i use these fairly frequently as well, and though the propriety versions are better, i'm not a serious graphic artist and the free stuff can do more than i am capable of using... i'm the limiting factor, not the software, so it's not important.

every other application is either one which i've found the free version just as good as the non-free one (openoffice vs. ms word), or i'm not familiar enough with one or both applications to know the difference (bluefish vs. homesite).


--------------------


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Re: Microsoft - your opinions please? [Re: wilshire]
    #5520087 -

I'm a heavy *nix user, and since I was hired as a Windows based network sysadmin, I am much more. Hell, what a pain of OS.


--------------------
Drugs in me, my report blog

Peyote Nethack!

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Re: Microsoft - your opinions please? [Re: Asante]
    #5522095 -

Microsoft is so big and successful that they inevitably attract their share of detractors. But I think over the years they've done a lot more good than harm to the tech landscape. They're in a much more difficult position than any other company - they have to write an OS which will run on a virtually infinite number of hardware configurations, maintain backwards compatibility for their existing users, continue to improve the security and stability of their product, all while making everything easy enough to use for any random grandmother.

No, their business practices are not always the most ethical, but they're stuck in a no-win situation. As a recent example, they were going to include antivirus software with Vista, but that sparked antitrust concerns. So now it will only be available as a paid add-on and people will doubtlessly bitch about the lack of security and profit motives instead.

They don't have as much power as people think. If there was a viable alternative desktop operating system, it would be available from PC manufacturers. It's easy to get a server with Linux preinstalled, even from Dell. I'm sure Microsoft would rather sell a copy of Windows 2003 with each box, but it just doesn't work that way. There's too much market demand so Dell won't cave. Linux just isn't competitive with Windows as a desktop OS yet, although open-source evangelists would prefer you believe that Microsoft Black-ops are keeping it repressed. But you'll see, if and when it offers comparable functionality to Windows, it will start popping up on more and more low cost machines. After all, as hardware gets increasingly cheaper, a Microsoft OS is becoming a significant percentage of the computer's total cost. It's not like Internet Explorer stopped people from installing Firefox when a better alternative came along (only 64% of our visitors use IE).

I know people will argue this point with me, but I'm a computer enthusiast, I have command-line Linux experience, and it still took me like a week to get Gentoo and KDE working with all my hardware. There's no way I'd recommend it as a viable alternative to anyone who doesn't enjoy tweaking and troubleshooting their PC (not everyone does!)

And don't forget that Bill Gates founded and endowed the world's largest charity which is working on practical solutions to serious problems facing third world countries. The guy seems to have a genuine desire to do good, since there are certainly cheaper and easier ways to generate good publicity.

So I dunno, they're not perfect, they're responsible for their fair share of proprietary standards and such, but they've also done a good job uniting the industry behind a common platform and moving it forward. And I think they're on the verge of reinventing themselves, like IBM did after their antitrust suit. I predict the coming years will bring a leaner and more focused Microsoft which responds to issues more quickly and is less averse to open standards.

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Re: Microsoft - your opinions please? [Re: Ythan]
    #5522179 -

Quote:
I know people will argue this point with me, but I'm a computer enthusiast, I have command-line Linux experience, and it still took me like a week to get Gentoo and KDE working with all my hardware. There's no way I'd recommend it as a viable alternative to anyone who doesn't enjoy tweaking and troubleshooting their PC (not everyone does!)


do you have weird hardware or something? every linux install I've done takes about 40 mins + another hour or two getting everything in order. all my hardware was recognized except for my ATI card which took less than 5 mins to install the driver following an easy to find guide.

gentoo is a pain in the ass, anyway. hardly user-friendly and not anything I'd recommend to the common computer user. I wouldnt even use gentoo - I think the advantages of speed are overhyped and the amount of work that goes into that distro is a waste of time. give me something quick, easy, and stable like ubuntu or fedora or mepis.

As for the merits of the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, I think that is irrelevent to this thread, really. Other than being the source of the money, Microsoft and its OSs has nothing to do with the charity - it's a private enterprise.

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Re: Microsoft - your opinions please? [Re: Asante]
    #5522194 -

Despite my defection, I'm still cool with Microsoft. There are a lot of problems with Windows and the release cycle has gotten out of hand, but I think the company does put in a good effort. I think they've just been bogged down by how ambitious they became in the late 90s. Now, they have to maintain Windows, their server OS, XBox, Windows Mobile, lots of embedded tech, a massive consulting division, a large library of very complex apps (office, wmp), MSN (which seems like an enormous amount of information), research and probably a ton of other crap I'm missing. It's probably very difficult to maintain such a widely spread organization. I'm glad they're getting increased competition. Hopefully, it will motivate them to clean up Windows.


--------------------
what's with neocons and the word 'ilk'?

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