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Asante
Mage


Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 86,793
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Microsoft - your opinions please?
#5499166 - 04/10/06 08:49 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Few companies arouse such strong feelings as Microsoft does.
Are they leading the way or obstructing technological progress? What are your personal experiences, as compared to other systems and competitors? What do you know that we *should* know?
Let's keep this a respectful discussion of Sci & Techheads.
Microsoft - Where do you stand?
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-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
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Simisu
taken by gravity


Registered: 08/08/03
Posts: 5,435
Loc: Israeli in
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Re: Microsoft - your opinions please? [Re: Asante]
#5499221 - 04/10/06 09:20 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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air strike! 
i do however run WinXP but that's just because i'm lazy and i don't have high expectations from my computer right now.. i've gotten used to crashes, slowing down and a general feeling of getting fucked... i should also note that i never paid for any microsoft program! (only original vertions i owned were always sold with the computer)
when i get a new computer i think i'm gonna try another OS though... it's about time for me! and i just love all those Open Source programs!
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   Shr mery    Visit & Support Free Spore Ring Earth Please help spread live Salvia Divinorum
Edited by simisu (04/10/06 10:37 AM)
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daimyo
Monticello

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Re: Microsoft - your opinions please? [Re: Asante]
#5499230 - 04/10/06 09:24 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Neutral.
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"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."
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wilshire
free radical


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Re: Microsoft - your opinions please? [Re: Asante]
#5499260 - 04/10/06 09:36 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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there are a lot of things about windows that just do not make sense to me. i don't know why it does things the way it does.
my main complaints are:
1. poor multi-user implementation, which contributes to poor security 2. windows registry keys are a mess and seem to slowly deteriorate and eventually kill a windows install of old age 3. system is welded shut 4. non-customizable 5. i'm pretty sure microsoft will tow the line in any future government/business inroads against privacy
i like linux because it's free, it's built by users for users, it's completely customizable, and i can see and access all the parts. if i have a problem with a linux box, i know there is a solution, and that i can find that solution and implement it, free of cost other than my time. i can make it do what i want how i want. not so with windows.
running windows is like renting a shitty apartment from a nosey and restrictive landlord. running linux is like owning the place.
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goobler
Reanimated



Registered: 02/24/03
Posts: 48,909
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Re: Microsoft - your opinions please? [Re: Asante]
#5499288 - 04/10/06 09:51 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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no matter what you think they are a necessary cog in the machine
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero


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Re: Microsoft - your opinions please? [Re: daimyo]
#5499293 - 04/10/06 09:53 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
i should also note that i never paid for any microsoft program! (only original vertions i owned were always sold with the computer)
If you have original versions, then you paid Microsoft. Dell, or whoever you bought the computer from had to pay Microsoft for the OS and that cost went directly into the overall cost of the computer.
Edit: W_S, I voted, but am going to wait a day or two before I start tossing my hefty opinion around. I want to give other people a chance to voice an opinion before I try to bias everybody.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
Edited by Seuss (04/10/06 09:56 AM)
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Simisu
taken by gravity


Registered: 08/08/03
Posts: 5,435
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Re: Microsoft - your opinions please? [Re: Seuss]
#5499404 - 04/10/06 10:47 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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well... yeah but usualy it's a packedge deal so i don't really consider it plus i don't change a computer every year... i tend to run it long after everyone alse moved on so i think the last time i switched there wasn't really any other choice... none that could really replace everything i could run on windows anyway or one i trusted to. right now i have way more trust in open source projects then anything else!
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   Shr mery    Visit & Support Free Spore Ring Earth Please help spread live Salvia Divinorum
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Vvellum
Stranger

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Re: Microsoft - your opinions please? [Re: Asante]
#5500167 - 04/10/06 03:03 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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I dont like their unfair anticompetitve business practices. Also, as I have said in this forum before, I prefer not to worry myself with regular anti-virus/malware updating and scanning along with all the usual "maintaince" that a Microsoft OS requires. I much prefer a system that takes a bit of work at first to set up and then runs like a champ with little work afterwards. Unlike *nix, Microsoft is easy to install, but a continual hassle from then on.
Microsoft's insistance of setting up their OS where the user is always "root" or an "administrator" is just assinine and an example of poor planning.
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Boom
just a tester

Registered: 06/16/04
Posts: 11,252
Loc: Cypress Creek
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Re: Microsoft - your opinions please? [Re: Asante]
#5500195 - 04/10/06 03:14 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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I don't personally like them much, but can't argue with the fact that they control the PC world. They provide a simple user interface that pretty much everyone knows, their Office suite is used by virtually every student at every school and by workers at pretty much every job.
Side note -- anyone know when Dapper Drake being released?
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs



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Re: Microsoft - your opinions please? [Re: Asante]
#5500204 - 04/10/06 03:19 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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I am not a fan at all, but am at a point where I have to accept the bugginess and security risks of using Windows.
I will be getting a new pc next year with a large hard drive and will create a partition for a linux based OS.
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OJK
Stranger

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Re: Microsoft - your opinions please? [Re: Boom]
#5500239 - 04/10/06 03:29 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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> Side note -- anyone know when Dapper Drake being released?
1st of June 2006
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Vvellum
Stranger

Registered: 05/24/04
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Re: Microsoft - your opinions please? [Re: Redstorm]
#5500275 - 04/10/06 03:42 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
I am not a fan at all, but am at a point where I have to accept the bugginess and security risks of using Windows.
on your personal computer? why?
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs



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Re: Microsoft - your opinions please? [Re: Vvellum]
#5500319 - 04/10/06 03:58 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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False comfort and an unwillingness to change.
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Konnrade
↑↑↓↓<--><-->BA



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Re: Microsoft - your opinions please? [Re: Asante]
#5506504 - 04/12/06 02:55 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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I really dislike microsoft, but part of that bitter disgust is the fact that they take talented people and them amalgamate them into a company that can't take a shit without screwing something up.
The thing that bugs me is that microsoft has bright people and comes up with some really great ideas, but the company as a whole is so utterly incompetent that it is truly beyond their ability to successfully act upon any of those ideas. Nine times out of ten, they have a good idea, and it's brought to it's knees by bugs, poor decisions, bad programming, or just a wholly incompetent execution.
To say it briefly, microsoft is an example of how brilliant ideas mean jack shit to people who have no idea how to make them work.
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I find your lack of faith disturbing
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giz
daydreamer


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Re: Microsoft - your opinions please? [Re: Asante]
#5507496 - 04/12/06 10:39 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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i have no problems with microsoft except a few things allready mentioned, one of them beeing weak security but this is mostly a concern for webadmins and people running ms based servers. but ms has played an important role in the computer evolution and has made it easy for everyone to use a computer.
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Silversoul
Rhizome


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Re: Microsoft - your opinions please? [Re: Asante]
#5510224 - 04/12/06 10:17 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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I'm actually neutral to them now. I was a bit more jaded with them for a while, until I started to get disillusioned with open source software as well.
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Vvellum
Stranger

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Re: Microsoft - your opinions please? [Re: Silversoul]
#5510978 - 04/13/06 02:26 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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disillusioned?
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero


Registered: 04/27/01
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Re: Microsoft - your opinions please? [Re: giz]
#5511132 - 04/13/06 04:58 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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> but ms has played an important role in the computer evolution and has made it easy for everyone to use a computer
This is not true. The "ease of computing" was stolen from Apple, which in turn was stolen from Xerox.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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goobler
Reanimated



Registered: 02/24/03
Posts: 48,909
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Re: Microsoft - your opinions please? [Re: Seuss]
#5511208 - 04/13/06 06:01 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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true
but most great inventions were stolen
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Konnrade
↑↑↓↓<--><-->BA



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Re: Microsoft - your opinions please? [Re: goobler]
#5511915 - 04/13/06 11:00 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Vulcanized tires weren't stolen.
Well... at least the idea wasn't
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I find your lack of faith disturbing
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giz
daydreamer


Registered: 02/08/06
Posts: 651
Loc: EU
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Re: Microsoft - your opinions please? [Re: Seuss]
#5512287 - 04/13/06 01:09 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Seuss said: > but ms has played an important role in the computer evolution and has made it easy for everyone to use a computer
This is not true. The "ease of computing" was stolen from Apple, which in turn was stolen from Xerox.
well some aspects of it , sure, but not everything. following your logic linux and almost all gui os for the personal user steals from ms again. imo ms has done their os more userfriendly than apple ever did.
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
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Re: Microsoft - your opinions please? [Re: giz]
#5513420 - 04/13/06 07:14 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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When I first started using computers I was fascinated with them and they became my #1 hobby. I loved to tinker and figure out how they worked. I despised Apple computers for the very constrictive operating system that they had. It was hard to do anything interesting with Apple's operating system. I loved DOS. I loved how it was so customizable and you could do tons of stuff with it. I loved how esoteric it was. I would spend hours writing programs, playing with batch files, etc..
I eventually lost my interest in tinkering with computers. Where there used to be wonder and interest now there is only impatience. I don't give a fuck about doing anything with computers anymore. I just want them to accomplish what I am trying to do. I want to access the internet, write a letter every once in a while, and that's about it. Computers are no longer a hobby for me...now they are just tools that I use to accomplish various tasks. My current view of computers could be compared to how most people view their automobiles. Most people don't give a shit about how the car works or why it works. Most people just want it to get them where they need to go. And when the thing breaks down it inconveniences your life.
Microsoft started out with a highly customizable shell-based operating system. Now they have a pretty and easy-to-use graphical interface. Control has largely been taken out of the hands of the user with the latest incarnations of Windows. I don't mind this at all. So, Microsoft's evolution has actually coincided with my own computer life and computer desires quite well.
My hatred of working with the nitty-gritty details of computers is why I have not jumped on the Linux bandwagon. I just have no interest in controlling and customizing my computer like that. I just want to turn the damn thing on and not have to use my brain. Windows works well for this basic approach.
Edited by RandalFlagg (04/13/06 07:32 PM)
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: Microsoft - your opinions please? [Re: RandalFlagg]
#5513490 - 04/13/06 07:35 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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^ agreed. I dont even have time to smoke weed, let alone tinker with an OS. In all my years of using windows I have really only had a problem once, and it was fixed easily.
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grimR
hippiousmaximous


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Re: Microsoft - your opinions please? [Re: DieCommie]
#5514166 - 04/13/06 10:52 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Microsoft allows a user with little or no knowledge on how computers work to successfully complete tasks with a point and a click, creating a two finger keyboard poking monkey. In the end technology as a whole suffers, we are not pushed in daily life to deeper roles in computer science. An opinion? Maybe.
-------------------- - grimR -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- http://egolost.com "I am already given to the power that rules my fate. And I cling to nothing, so I will have nothing to defend. I have no thoughts, so I will see. I fear nothing, so I will remember myself." - Don Juan teachings
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Vvellum
Stranger

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Re: Microsoft - your opinions please? [Re: grimR]
#5514255 - 04/13/06 11:19 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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yes, that is true as far as installation goes, but windows users are bound to have to "maintain" their system and put forth way more effort into this than if they used another OS. I'd rather spend a day or two getting everything in order and then not to have to worry about anything...rather than spend 45 mins installing and then having to worry about viruses and spyware and security holes and registry foul-ups and defragmenting perpetually from then on. I'm lazy like that, I guess.
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
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Re: Microsoft - your opinions please? [Re: grimR]
#5514928 - 04/14/06 07:17 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
grimR said: Microsoft allows a user with little or no knowledge on how computers work to successfully complete tasks with a point and a click, creating a two finger keyboard poking monkey. In the end technology as a whole suffers, we are not pushed in daily life to deeper roles in computer science. An opinion? Maybe.
I don't understand how technology is suffering by what Microsoft is doing. If computer nerds out there don't like Microsoft's products they can go with other options (Apple's O.S., Linux, etc..).
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grimR
hippiousmaximous


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Re: Microsoft - your opinions please? [Re: RandalFlagg]
#5515191 - 04/14/06 09:08 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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I wasn't referring to x windows or software developed for use on unix based os's I was speaking on the OS itself, using the shell/commmand line. Force yourself to do everything through the command line for a year, you will learn more about the ins and outs than gnome or kde could ever teach you. 
I don't think the average windows user would know where to start if you sent them something in source code format.
Linux has its advantages over spyware and virii being that it can complete tasks without being logged in as root. It's not just a coincidence that it's hard to find a virus for Linux/UNIX, most users would have the sense not to run something as root unless it was trusted software.
Apple OS X is nice too, nothing beats a good bsd core.
I chose "bad for progress" in the poll because windows never forces you to use a keyboard other than typing a name a company and maybe an ip address. If the majority knows no more than Click OK, Click Cancel and Click Install, more advanced programs won't be available to the world at large. That's my opinion, with demand there is a supply, and when there is an easy way out most take it.
I take pride in being able to safeguard myself on the internet using proxies and encryption both on the connection side and the storage side. It's something everyone should learn in this day and age of warrantless taps and spy programs.
Not trying to put down all Windows users... none of them are forced to take their education further, the ones who do have my respect.
-------------------- - grimR -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- http://egolost.com "I am already given to the power that rules my fate. And I cling to nothing, so I will have nothing to defend. I have no thoughts, so I will see. I fear nothing, so I will remember myself." - Don Juan teachings
Edited by grimR (04/14/06 09:26 AM)
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
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Re: Microsoft - your opinions please? [Re: grimR]
#5515487 - 04/14/06 10:40 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
grimR said: I chose "bad for progress" in the poll because windows never forces you to use a keyboard other than typing a name a company and maybe an ip address. If the majority knows no more than Click OK, Click Cancel and Click Install, more advanced programs won't be available to the world at large. That's my opinion, with demand there is a supply, and when there is an easy way out most take it.
There's nothing wrong with making stuff simple. Most people don't want to sit around and learn the nitty-gritty details of how to make a computer dance. There are enough computer geeks out there that all of these in-depth and complicated O.S.'s and programs will get created. But most of the rest of us just don't care.
I don't think Microsoft is hindering progress at all. How does what they do affect your ability to tinker with your computer? You don't have to use their stuff if you don't want to. You can throw some obscure version of Linux on your computer, network a bunch of shit together, and do all kinds of tech crap to your heart's content. How is Microsoft stopping you from doing stuff like that?
Hm....what would I rather do on a Saturday night? Go out drinking and flirting with girls or sit at home and become a Linux master? Tough choice...
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Asante
Mage


Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 86,793
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Re: Microsoft - your opinions please? [Re: grimR]
#5515519 - 04/14/06 10:47 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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I chose airstrike. Not literally an airstrike mind you but I really feel Microsoft is a rogue company which ought to be subjected to a huge lawsuit, not to part them with their money but to undo their evil at their own expense.
Some time ago Windows had an update, like it perpetually needs them. Suddenly Outhouse Express (the email client) did not allow external email services to be integrated into it anymore. If you wanted that, you from then on had to *pay* Microsoft to get the service which until then had been free. The company used the updates as a TROJAN to haul something in that was detrimental to the user.
And it does far more things like that.
My major beef with Microsoft is incompatibility, or rather: DELIBERATE INCOMPATIBILITIES built in to fight the competition at your expense, and at the expense of progress.
Microsoft codes BAD HTML. If you trust them blindly your website is a *gem* when viewed by Internot Exploder, but it looks like shit if viewed with Firefox or other browsers. Deliberate incompatibility, making the product of *your work* look bad to other people to punish them for not buying Microsuck.
They get you to buy a product. This product is BLOATED which makes it prone to fail and to remedy that you need to get updates from them (which sometimes reboot you on the spot ) And no matter how they update and servicepack its still inferior. Then they stop updating to let their product decompose and you're ready to buy a new version of their product.
I've seen somebody graciously dance through the inner workings of a piece of software i handed him, a marvellous sight. Can't Microsoft spy with their little eye from Linux and create something that does not suck? Oh, they can. But no, they won't. It would break the vicious circle of artificial dependence they created for their users.
Like a heroin dealer they dont sell the product to you but rather they sell you to the product.
Aggressive lawsuits await those who want to bridge incompatibility bridges towards Windows. They tie programs into the windows package to get a foothold on other areas.
And what is in those coded information packets my computer docilely takes and sends to Redmont? Some time ago a website showed me a MS backdoor on my harddrive that contained just about everything I know to have deleted 
Windows is forced onto you if you buy package deal-customized computers at Dell and other companies, even local ones.
Et cetera, et cetera, ad nauseum.
If it were up to me MS would be forced towards intercompatibility, and yes they can make a buck off that. I would screw Bill Gates out of 49 of his 50 G$ and use that surplus to undo the damage towards progress and to have the experts provide some *real* updates. And here's something: make sure people who work for Microsoft in developing nations actually get a decent paycheck.
At the moment I'm still chained to Windows but I'm trying to break free of the bondage. I learned computing under Windows and so I have to learn how to use a computer anew.
Currently I'm playing with Knoppix, a file you can download, put on CD, shove in your drive, reboot and you're on a Linux computer, without the risk of doing actual damage! I can't get it to connect to the intarweb yet but what I *am* seeing looks rather good.
-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
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Boom
just a tester

Registered: 06/16/04
Posts: 11,252
Loc: Cypress Creek
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Re: Microsoft - your opinions please? [Re: Asante]
#5515786 - 04/14/06 12:10 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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I wish I had M$ stock.. With Vista coming out, you know every school and business and most people with a computer are going to upgrade.
Other than that, I am not a big fan.
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
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Re: Microsoft - your opinions please? [Re: Asante]
#5515787 - 04/14/06 12:10 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Does "Windows" suck when it comes to security and stability? Yes.
Are there other operating systems that are superior? Yes.
Has Microsoft done some shady stuff in the past? Probably.
Do I give a shit? No.
Edited by RandalFlagg (04/14/06 12:12 PM)
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Vvellum
Stranger

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Re: Microsoft - your opinions please? [Re: Asante]
#5516225 - 04/14/06 02:29 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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well said 
Quote:
And what is in those coded information packets my computer docilely takes and sends to Redmont? Some time ago a website showed me a MS backdoor on my harddrive that contained just about everything I know to have deleted
did you catch this: this ?
Quote:
Currently I'm playing with Knoppix, a file you can download, put on CD, shove in your drive, reboot and you're on a Linux computer, without the risk of doing actual damage! I can't get it to connect to the intarweb yet but what I *am* seeing looks rather good.
very cool. I started using linux by playing around with various live distros and then eventually I set up a dual-boot. I was kind of stuck on windows because that's what I was comfortable with. About a year ago, I decided to reformat my entire drive and go 100% linux. I havent looked back since...I have also installed linux on 2 friends computers and all of my immediate familys' computers - I set it all up so that everything is user-friendly where all they have to do is click to open a browser or media player or whatever. Their computers are now more secure, faster-running, and more user-friendly than with microsoft (where they had to worry about viruses, spyware, defragmenting, etc. - they dont even have to reboot, really).
one way I've learned what I know about using this OS is from visiting a couple messageboards. the ubuntu forums have been extremely helpful. I recommend.
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Microsoft - your opinions please? [Re: Vvellum]
#5517447 - 04/14/06 10:29 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
bi0 said: disillusioned?
Well, here's my impression so far:
Photoshop > GIMP
MS Office > OpenOffice.org
The one open source program I've really been satisfied with is Firefox. I suppose I couldn't really get a feel for it until I try Linux, but every attempt I've made to install it has failed.
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Vvellum
Stranger

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Re: Microsoft - your opinions please? [Re: Silversoul]
#5517695 - 04/15/06 12:26 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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windows ports usually arent so good, but I installed both the gimp and oo.o on windows quite successfully and they fulfulled my needs both on windows and linux. pebcac, perhaps? keep in mind that crossoveroffice and wine do exist.
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ChuangTzu
starvingphysicist



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Re: Microsoft - your opinions please? [Re: Silversoul]
#5518020 - 04/15/06 04:44 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Open Office is kinda crappy, but not any more so than MS Office, at least not while it's running on linux. The Windows port seems to be a bit more buggy. I have Photoshop running on this computer under both Wine and Crossover Office and both run flawlessly. A lot of open source software does suck. But some of it is simply awesome (the linux kernel, a lot of the GNU standard utilities, the GNU C compiler, python, apache, I could go on...). It seems like the ratio of good to shitty software is about the same for closed- and open-source software (I'd put it at about 1:5 although the majority of software out there tends to be just mediocre).
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wilshire
free radical


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Re: Microsoft - your opinions please? [Re: Silversoul]
#5519508 - 04/15/06 09:57 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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what linux distributions have you tried installing? what was the problem? i've installed ubuntu on 5 different systems now and every install has gone completely without a hitch.
i've used openoffice for about 2 years in linux and i've never had a problem with it. maybe the windows port isn't as good. i'd rather have access to photoshop than the GIMP (and adobe illustrator over inkscape). i can get a good deal on adobe creative suite through my school... about $370. inkscape and the gimp are free.
open source applications are certainly not always better than their proprietary cousins.
here's what i've generally found:
open source software better than proprietary counterpart:
ubuntu/debian > windows xp/2000 gaim > aol instant messenger k3b > nero, roxio, etc firefox > IE nicotine > soulseek
these are 5 tools that i use very frequently and the free versions are much better than non-free.
worse:
gimp < photoshop inkscape < illustrator
i use these fairly frequently as well, and though the propriety versions are better, i'm not a serious graphic artist and the free stuff can do more than i am capable of using... i'm the limiting factor, not the software, so it's not important.
every other application is either one which i've found the free version just as good as the non-free one (openoffice vs. ms word), or i'm not familiar enough with one or both applications to know the difference (bluefish vs. homesite).
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funnybunny
Saboten Bomber



Registered: 01/30/06
Posts: 602
Loc: Spain
Last seen: 1 year, 7 months
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Re: Microsoft - your opinions please? [Re: wilshire]
#5520087 - 04/16/06 01:17 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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I'm a heavy *nix user, and since I was hired as a Windows based network sysadmin, I am much more. Hell, what a pain of OS.
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Ythan
ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ


Registered: 08/08/97
Posts: 18,774
Loc: NY/MA/VT Borderlands
Last seen: 9 hours, 2 minutes
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Re: Microsoft - your opinions please? [Re: Asante]
#5522095 - 04/16/06 06:35 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Microsoft is so big and successful that they inevitably attract their share of detractors. But I think over the years they've done a lot more good than harm to the tech landscape. They're in a much more difficult position than any other company - they have to write an OS which will run on a virtually infinite number of hardware configurations, maintain backwards compatibility for their existing users, continue to improve the security and stability of their product, all while making everything easy enough to use for any random grandmother.
No, their business practices are not always the most ethical, but they're stuck in a no-win situation. As a recent example, they were going to include antivirus software with Vista, but that sparked antitrust concerns. So now it will only be available as a paid add-on and people will doubtlessly bitch about the lack of security and profit motives instead.
They don't have as much power as people think. If there was a viable alternative desktop operating system, it would be available from PC manufacturers. It's easy to get a server with Linux preinstalled, even from Dell. I'm sure Microsoft would rather sell a copy of Windows 2003 with each box, but it just doesn't work that way. There's too much market demand so Dell won't cave. Linux just isn't competitive with Windows as a desktop OS yet, although open-source evangelists would prefer you believe that Microsoft Black-ops are keeping it repressed. But you'll see, if and when it offers comparable functionality to Windows, it will start popping up on more and more low cost machines. After all, as hardware gets increasingly cheaper, a Microsoft OS is becoming a significant percentage of the computer's total cost. It's not like Internet Explorer stopped people from installing Firefox when a better alternative came along (only 64% of our visitors use IE).
I know people will argue this point with me, but I'm a computer enthusiast, I have command-line Linux experience, and it still took me like a week to get Gentoo and KDE working with all my hardware. There's no way I'd recommend it as a viable alternative to anyone who doesn't enjoy tweaking and troubleshooting their PC (not everyone does!)
And don't forget that Bill Gates founded and endowed the world's largest charity which is working on practical solutions to serious problems facing third world countries. The guy seems to have a genuine desire to do good, since there are certainly cheaper and easier ways to generate good publicity.
So I dunno, they're not perfect, they're responsible for their fair share of proprietary standards and such, but they've also done a good job uniting the industry behind a common platform and moving it forward. And I think they're on the verge of reinventing themselves, like IBM did after their antitrust suit. I predict the coming years will bring a leaner and more focused Microsoft which responds to issues more quickly and is less averse to open standards.
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Vvellum
Stranger

Registered: 05/24/04
Posts: 10,920
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Re: Microsoft - your opinions please? [Re: Ythan]
#5522179 - 04/16/06 06:52 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
I know people will argue this point with me, but I'm a computer enthusiast, I have command-line Linux experience, and it still took me like a week to get Gentoo and KDE working with all my hardware. There's no way I'd recommend it as a viable alternative to anyone who doesn't enjoy tweaking and troubleshooting their PC (not everyone does!)
do you have weird hardware or something? every linux install I've done takes about 40 mins + another hour or two getting everything in order. all my hardware was recognized except for my ATI card which took less than 5 mins to install the driver following an easy to find guide.
gentoo is a pain in the ass, anyway. hardly user-friendly and not anything I'd recommend to the common computer user. I wouldnt even use gentoo - I think the advantages of speed are overhyped and the amount of work that goes into that distro is a waste of time. give me something quick, easy, and stable like ubuntu or fedora or mepis.
As for the merits of the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, I think that is irrelevent to this thread, really. Other than being the source of the money, Microsoft and its OSs has nothing to do with the charity - it's a private enterprise.
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Gijith
Daisy Chain Eater

Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 2,400
Loc: New York
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Re: Microsoft - your opinions please? [Re: Asante]
#5522194 - 04/16/06 06:56 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Despite my defection, I'm still cool with Microsoft. There are a lot of problems with Windows and the release cycle has gotten out of hand, but I think the company does put in a good effort. I think they've just been bogged down by how ambitious they became in the late 90s. Now, they have to maintain Windows, their server OS, XBox, Windows Mobile, lots of embedded tech, a massive consulting division, a large library of very complex apps (office, wmp), MSN (which seems like an enormous amount of information), research and probably a ton of other crap I'm missing. It's probably very difficult to maintain such a widely spread organization. I'm glad they're getting increased competition. Hopefully, it will motivate them to clean up Windows.
-------------------- what's with neocons and the word 'ilk'?
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Ythan
ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ


Registered: 08/08/97
Posts: 18,774
Loc: NY/MA/VT Borderlands
Last seen: 9 hours, 2 minutes
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Re: Microsoft - your opinions please? [Re: Vvellum]
#5522197 - 04/16/06 06:57 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Actually I was installing in a VMWare virtual machine so the hardware couldn't be more standard. I tried putting it on a K6-2 500 but bailed on day 3 of the compile. I know there are more user-friendly distros than Gentoo, but that's what our server runs so that's what I want to use. It still shouldn't take that long to get a system working in this era of plug and play.
I did install it on my Xbox first try. But that's basically just running a live CD.
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero


Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 2 months, 19 days
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Re: Microsoft - your opinions please? [Re: Ythan]
#5523546 - 04/17/06 06:01 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Microsoft is so big and successful that they inevitably attract their share of detractors.
Lots of big companies out there that I don't dislike.
Quote:
But I think over the years they've done a lot more good than harm to the tech landscape.
This is what they want you to think. "We have done a lot of good." The only good Microsoft has done has been accidental.
Quote:
They're in a much more difficult position than any other company - they have to write an OS which will run on a virtually infinite number of hardware configurations, maintain backwards compatibility for their existing users, continue to improve the security and stability of their product, all while making everything easy enough to use for any random grandmother.
Wah. So they have a difficult task. This doesn't give them the right to screw the industry as a whole.
Quote:
No, their business practices are not always the most ethical, but they're stuck in a no-win situation. As a recent example, they were going to include antivirus software with Vista, but that sparked antitrust concerns. So now it will only be available as a paid add-on and people will doubtlessly bitch about the lack of security and profit motives instead.
They dug their own hole. If they had designed a multiuser system in the first place, we wouldn't have so many security problems.
Quote:
They don't have as much power as people think.
Yes they do. It is called "Embrace and Destroy" and Microsoft is very, very good at it. What they cannot embrace and destroy they buy and shelve. This is my big gripe with Microsoft. I don't care about the 95% monopoly, or the buggy software, or the constant crashes, but what really gets me intentional destruction of public standards to lock the industry to the Microsoft monopoly.
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If there was a viable alternative desktop operating system, it would be available from PC manufacturers. It's easy to get a server with Linux preinstalled, even from Dell.
.... and how many years went by before Dell started to offer Linux as an option? I remember buying my first Dell and begging them to reduce the price by the cost of the OS, which I didn't want, and they could not do. It wasn't until the antitrust stuff came out that Microsoft relented and allowed the computer makers to offer an alternate OS. If you think Microsoft wasn't the one preventing the computer makers from putting out a linux version of their hardware, you are very mistaken. Oh wait, Microsoft has no real power, silly me... 
Quote:
I'm sure Microsoft would rather sell a copy of Windows 2003 with each box, but it just doesn't work that way. There's too much market demand so Dell won't cave. Linux just isn't competitive with Windows as a desktop OS yet, although open-source evangelists would prefer you believe that Microsoft Black-ops are keeping it repressed.
I don't think Microsoft tries to kill the open source software, but they certainly don't help. Have you ever looked at the Microsoft specifications for the windows media codec? The EU forced them to release the specification, so Microsoft complied, with an ode to obfuscation.
Quote:
But you'll see, if and when it offers comparable functionality to Windows, it will start popping up on more and more low cost machines. After all, as hardware gets increasingly cheaper, a Microsoft OS is becoming a significant percentage of the computer's total cost. It's not like Internet Explorer stopped people from installing Firefox when a better alternative came along (only 64% of our visitors use IE).
Tell that to Netscape... I'm sure they will feel better...
This is another great example of why I dislike Microsoft. When was the last time Microsoft added a great new feature to IE? About the same time that they finally destroyed Netscape. True innovation.
Quote:
I know people will argue this point with me, but I'm a computer enthusiast, I have command-line Linux experience, and it still took me like a week to get Gentoo and KDE working with all my hardware. There's no way I'd recommend it as a viable alternative to anyone who doesn't enjoy tweaking and troubleshooting their PC (not everyone does!)
Gentoo isn't an easy distribution to use... it is meant for those that wish to eek the last clock cycle from their system. Other distributions are very easy to use if your hardware is on the compat list. To be fair, if your hardware isn't on Microsoft's compat list, you will have just as difficult of a time.
Quote:
And don't forget that Bill Gates founded and endowed the world's largest charity which is working on practical solutions to serious problems facing third world countries. The guy seems to have a genuine desire to do good, since there are certainly cheaper and easier ways to generate good publicity.
Ah yes... and how long was Billy the worlds richest person before he started to donate money? I guess late is better than never when you are trying to buy, I mean win, public opinion.
Quote:
So I dunno, they're not perfect, they're responsible for their fair share of proprietary standards and such, but they've also done a good job uniting the industry behind a common platform and moving it forward.
They have destroyed almost every single open standard that is. They don't create their own specifications, but rather than change the ones every body else uses so that they only work with Microsoft products. They do not play fair and return the changes they made back into the open. Embrace and destroy.
The only reason they have united the industry behind a common platform is because they own the common platform and it is in the best interest of their monopoly if everybody else uses the common platform. Again, if they really wanted to help the industry, they would release the standards, not keep them closed.
Quote:
And I think they're on the verge of reinventing themselves, like IBM did after their antitrust suit. I predict the coming years will bring a leaner and more focused Microsoft which responds to issues more quickly and is less averse to open standards.
I don't see it. I think they are pretending to be a better company, but I have yet to see anything that indicates they are doing anything at all different.
Cool... thanks for the write-up, Ythan. I used yours, line by line, because you summed up the pro-microsoft side fairly well, and I know you wont get offended by my ranting. 
My only real gripe with Microsoft is their Embrace and Destroy strategy of open standards and their refusal to release their own standards to the non-Microsoft world. In both cases, I wouldn't care if they didn't own 95% of the market. Rather than share, they act like a spoiled child in a candy store. If they were a small player, I wouldn't expect them to share... but as the only real player, and the self-proclaimed saviors of the computing world, I wish they would practice what they preach.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Microsoft - your opinions please? [Re: wilshire]
#5525177 - 04/17/06 02:04 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
wilshire said: what linux distributions have you tried installing? what was the problem? i've installed ubuntu on 5 different systems now and every install has gone completely without a hitch.
That's exactly the system I tried installing(ubuntu). I tried to install it several times, following the advice of ubuntu enthusiasts in this forum, and it never worked for me. Eventually I just gave up.
Quote:
i've used openoffice for about 2 years in linux and i've never had a problem with it. maybe the windows port isn't as good.
It's not a performance issue for me. It's just less user-friendly than MS Office, especially when it comes to PowerPoint presentations.
Quote:
ubuntu/debian > windows xp/2000
Wouldn't know, since I can't seem to install it.
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gaim > aol instant messenger
I use Trillian, and like it better than either of those.
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firefox > IE
Agreed
Quote:
nicotine > soulseek
Wouldn't know, since I don't use either of them.
--------------------
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grimR
hippiousmaximous


Registered: 03/29/06
Posts: 1,235
Loc: North America
Last seen: 7 years, 10 months
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Re: Microsoft - your opinions please? [Re: Silversoul]
#5553467 - 04/24/06 11:55 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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I would say you can't really compare linux x windows as a whole. Each can serve its purpose depending on what your looking for.
Reasons I use Linux:
Totally customizable
Free programming tools
The opensource community "comradery"
Cost (including the lack of need for virus scanning)
Using an older computer I am able to run many programs at once without freezing + good uptime (currently 49 days and counting, only reason it was shutdown before this was a power outage)
Lack of virii/trojans/spyware because of the fact most users don't run things as root unless completely necessary
Linux doesn't force you to keep anything, in fact if you really want to you can remove files that will cripple your system, windows on the other hand would force me to keep internet explorer as it is "a necessary component"
I feel safer on Linux, I feel like I control MY computer, it does not control me.
The list goes on...
of course I am sure there are reasons people choose to use windows I just was stating each has it's own purpose depending on what you need.
- grimR (A Linux Lifer)
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nife
I'm Dead

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 225
Last seen: 1 year, 18 days
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Re: Microsoft - your opinions please? [Re: grimR]
#5553555 - 04/25/06 12:32 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Linux user here too. Really it comes down to power for me. I have power of where/when I install it. I have power over what I pay for it. (donate to the distro/project or not) I have supreme power over the software installed. I can change the source code to do what I want. The power to be able to fix things. I know the internals of linux better then I could ever hope to know windows.(since I have been taught the inner workings from system calls to start_kernel) And it has the absolute best cheap development enviroment in the world. Vim + gcc or Eclipse + java.
-------------------- Protect Your Rights Freedom Card
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Asante
Mage


Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 86,793
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Re: Microsoft - your opinions please? [Re: nife]
#5570378 - 04/29/06 01:51 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Log in to view attachment
No sir: you can not make stuff like this up. Download and be amazed by Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer's enthusiasm.
-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
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DoctorJ


Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,846
Loc: space
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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Re: Microsoft - your opinions please? [Re: Asante]
#5570433 - 04/29/06 02:02 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Personally, I prefer Microsoft's Windows2000 OS, over linux although I have switched from IE to Firefox.
The reason is mainly the software suites which are available on the MS platform which aren't available on the Linux platform.
However, I am interested in Linux, and I think that if indeed it is the better OS, it will win out over MS in time.
The reason Apple has fallen behind Microsoft is that Apple made a TON of mistakes in the 80's and 90's. The biggest mistake they made was offering consumers a communist, rigid, generic, uncustomizable product. Buying a mac in the 90's was akin to buying a car with its hood welded shut. The PC offered personalization and customizability. Also, consumers were able to build their own PC from components instead of relying on and paying for a large company to do it for them. That is why PC's won the battle of 90's computers.
But the consumer computer war continues. Now that Apple has gotten smart and solved some of their problems, they may have a chance to come back and give Microsoft a run for their money.
As I said before, if Linux is better, it will come out on top. May the best platform win.
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monamine
dork


Registered: 04/28/06
Posts: 1,089
Loc: Florida, US
Last seen: 17 years, 6 months
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Re: Microsoft - your opinions please? [Re: DoctorJ]
#5570511 - 04/29/06 02:25 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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M$=horrible PC software company, great videogame company (I loves my XBOX360)
I was that would focus soley on videogames, but hell will freeze over before that happens.
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arainbow
Hippy


Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 691
Loc: Palnet Earth
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Re: Microsoft - your opinions please? [Re: goobler]
#9534232 - 01/02/09 08:18 PM (15 years, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
goobler said: no matter what you think they are a necessary cog in the machine
NO any software house could have done a better job
-------------------- There is more joy in heaven over one of us perfected, than over ninety-nine naturally evolved angels.
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Konnrade
↑↑↓↓<--><-->BA




Registered: 09/13/05
Posts: 13,833
Loc: LA Suburbs
Last seen: 8 months, 25 days
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Re: Microsoft - your opinions please? [Re: arainbow]
#9534266 - 01/02/09 08:22 PM (15 years, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
arainbow said:
Quote:
goobler said: no matter what you think they are a necessary cog in the machine
NO any software house could have done a better job
Re: Microsoft - your opinions please? [Re: DoctorJ] #5570511 - 04/29/06 01:25 PM (2 years, 8 months ago)
That was the last post in front of yours
--------------------
I find your lack of faith disturbing
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magicbastard


Registered: 03/18/05
Posts: 791
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Re: Microsoft - your opinions please? [Re: Boom]
#9534388 - 01/02/09 08:34 PM (15 years, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
Boom said: I wish I had M$ stock.. With Vista coming out, you know every school and business and most people with a computer are going to upgrade.
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iateshaggy
i haxor 360s



Registered: 05/20/05
Posts: 4,707
Loc: 612 Warf Avenue, next to....
Last seen: 1 month, 8 days
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Re: Microsoft - your opinions please? [Re: magicbastard]
#9534500 - 01/02/09 08:54 PM (15 years, 28 days ago) |
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i present to u, the necromaster.
-------------------- You are a filipina sex goddess who wants to fuck me until I fall asleep, so then you can tickle my balls and see if the legend of my diamond filled nutsuck is true. I am a white man from costa rica, who smells like lime jello.
I can flash/jtag/repair 360's, pm for details.
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tak
geo's henchman




Registered: 11/20/00
Posts: 3,776
Loc: nowhereland
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Re: Microsoft - your opinions please? [Re: arainbow]
#9534712 - 01/02/09 09:26 PM (15 years, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
arainbow said:
Quote:
goobler said: no matter what you think they are a necessary cog in the machine
NO any software house could have done a better job
I find this hard to believe.
-------------------- The DJ's took pills to stay awake and play for seven days.
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magicbastard


Registered: 03/18/05
Posts: 791
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Re: Microsoft - your opinions please? [Re: tak]
#9535107 - 01/02/09 10:29 PM (15 years, 28 days ago) |
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Linux spawned from a router, it learned everything it knew from sniffing all the packets that traveled through the router. It then hijacked a computer and compiled its knowledge into a Osborne owned by Linus Torvalds back in the early 80's. The linux brainwashed poor Linus into its pawn. Soon Linus distributed the Linux virus to his fellow online friends, where they soon fell prey to the Deadly Linux. The Linux manipulated the New Comers, it taught them Linux's way, showing them how to alter its current state to a New, Better Linux. A linux to RULE THE WORLD. Don't choose the path of Linux, use a calculator instead.
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tak
geo's henchman




Registered: 11/20/00
Posts: 3,776
Loc: nowhereland
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Re: Microsoft - your opinions please? [Re: magicbastard]
#9535538 - 01/02/09 11:58 PM (15 years, 28 days ago) |
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My calculator is the best
-------------------- The DJ's took pills to stay awake and play for seven days.
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Boom
just a tester

Registered: 06/16/04
Posts: 11,252
Loc: Cypress Creek
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Re: Microsoft - your opinions please? [Re: magicbastard]
#9536874 - 01/03/09 09:27 AM (15 years, 27 days ago) |
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Quote:
magicbastard said:
Quote:
Boom said: I wish I had M$ stock.. With Vista coming out, you know every school and business and most people with a computer are going to upgrade.
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magicbastard


Registered: 03/18/05
Posts: 791
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Re: Microsoft - your opinions please? [Re: Boom]
#9538394 - 01/03/09 03:22 PM (15 years, 27 days ago) |
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oh...did you buy stock for Microsoft?
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