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Democrats: Deceit made us back war
    #4901078 -

Article
By Dick Polman

The Democratic party appears to have finally come up with a way to explain why so many of its elected leaders gave President Bush the authority to wage war in Iraq.

Three simple words: "We were duped."

A parade of top Democrats have contended in recent days that they would have been antiwar in 2002 had they known then what they now believe to be true: that the Bush administration manipulated the intelligence in order to build a bogus case for war. In pursuit of that theme, Senate Democrats on Tuesday successfully demanded that their GOP colleagues quit stalling and finish a long-promised investigation that could determine whether the war planners were dishonest.

Many Democrats believe it's good politics these days to say that they were lied to. This message, actually a rite of confession, is designed to help their erstwhile pro-war politicians get back in sync with the party's liberal antiwar base. That's especially important for some of the original pro-war Democrats who want to run for president in 2008. After all, liberal voters tend to dominate the Democratic primaries, and they're expecting to hear apologies.

Hence, Sen. John Kerry (who wants to try again) said in a speech on Oct. 26: "The country and the Congress were misled into war. I regret that we were not given the truth... knowing what we know now, I would not have gone to war in Iraq." Hence, Tom Daschle (the deposed Senate Democratic leader, who is weighing a campaign) said in a speech Wednesday that senators voted incorrectly because "on so many fronts, we were misled."

At least four other Democratic senators who voted to authorize war have use the dupe argument in recent days, including Christopher Dodd of Connecticut (who periodically voices White House ambitions) and Tom Harkin of Iowa (who now calls his war support "one of the biggest voting mistakes of my career"). And once having confessed, these Democrats believe they have sufficient credibility to call for the phased withdrawal of U.S. troops from Iraq.

But not all the prominent Democrats who voted with Bush have embraced the dupe message. Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton - who continues to exasperate the liberal base - hasn't renounced her vote; when asked about it the other day by NPR, she dodged: "I can't talk about this on the fly; it's too important." Sen. Evan Bayh, another presidential hopeful, hasn't renounced. Former Sen. John Edwards, another prospective candidate, hasn't renounced. Sen. Joe Biden hasn't, either.

Their reticence might stem in part from awareness of the George Romney rule of politics: Gullibility is not a character asset for a presidential candidate.

The late George Romney (father of current Massachusetts Republican Gov. Mitt Romney) was the anointed front-runner of the 1968 GOP presidential race - until he tried to explain, in a radio interview during the summer of 1967, why he had renounced his previous support for the Vietnam war. The Michigan governor complained that, while visiting the hot zone, he had been duped by the brass into backing the war:

"I just had the greatest brainwashing that anybody can get when you go over to Vietnam. Not only by the generals, but also by the diplomatic corps over there, and they did a very thorough job."

Romney plummeted in the polls, and his candidacy soon evaporated; voters didn't like the idea of electing someone who admitted he was capable of being fooled. And, as many political observers argue, that's the lesson for Democrats today.

Charlie Cook, a Washington analyst who runs the nonpartisan Cook Political Report, said Friday: "If Democrats want to argue that the administration misrepresented and distorted the prewar intelligence, OK, that's one thing. But if they push the argument that they have been duped, fooled and victimized - well, to a lot of [independent swing] voters, they're just going to come across as weak."

The Romney rule is also invoked by moderate Democrats who see Iraq as a noble cause. Marshall Wittmann, a senior fellow at the Democratic Leadership Council, warned on his blog the other day that the Democrats "are positioning themselves as a party that is gullible, feckless, and indecisive... beware of the long-term impact on the party which already suffers from a perception of being weak on national security."

But David Sirota, a liberal antiwar activist and organizer, contends that the Romney rule is irrelevant today, because of the public's broad-based opposition to the Iraq war. (Most Americans still generally supported the Vietnam war at the time Romney committed his gaffe).

Sirota said Thursday: "Obviously, the [dupe] message needs to be played properly. But most Americans already believe that Bush misled the country" - polls support his contention - "so it makes perfect sense for Democrats to say they too were misled... . They followed tradition and gave the benefit of the doubt to a president on a national security issue, and they were lied to. That doesn't mean they were stupid. They were being patriotic.

"And rather than just apologize for being misled, Democrats need a message of outrage. Make the argument that this administration deliberately manipulated the intelligence."

That message is dismissed by critics as paranoid; Wittmann calls it "Michael Moore territory." But the Republican Senate leaders did promise, back in February 2004, that it would investigate whether the war planners had been deliberately dishonest. Asked in October 2004 (before the election) why that key question had not been resolved, Kansas Sen. Pat Roberts replied: "We simply couldn't get that done with the work product that we put out." Then, eight months ago, Roberts said the probe had been put "on the back burner."

Early last week, Senate Democrats employed a parliamentary maneuver to force a showdown over the sluggish probe; as a result, a progress report will be issued within the next several weeks. Liberal bloggers were thrilled by this rare act of boldness; in the words of Philadelphia-based billmon.org, it was a treat "watching the Democratic jellyfish rear up on its hind tentacles and sting someone."

If the GOP report concludes that the Bush team manipulated intelligence, it would buttress the Democratic message about being duped. But the party's strategy could fail anyway. There is always the possibility, as some Democrats say privately, that the report will exonerate Bush, leaving Democrats to merely complain that there must have been a whitewash.

And the dupe message may be only as good as the individual messenger. Kerry, in his Oct. 26 speech, declared that "as I said more than a year ago," he would not have voted for the war if he had known about "the Bush administration's duplicity." Yet, on Aug. 9, 2004, he said he would have still voted to authorize Bush even if he had known in advance that no mass weaponry would be found. Those statements don't necessarily contradict each other, but a fresh round of Kerry nuances may not boost his fortunes.

Clearly, gaining traction on Iraq is a Democratic imperative. Bush may be tanking in the polls, but Democrats have barely moved the needle their way. In the words of party pollster Stan Greenberg, summarizing his late-October numbers, "Democrats have not made noticeable gains on thinking long-term... knowing what they stand for, or being trusted to keep America safe."

As for the 2008 race, Charlie Cook suggests a way for Democrats to dump the dupe message entirely: "By 2008, there will be a tremendous constituency for a candidate who can argue clearly that the war was always a mistake. Forget all the senators. The answer for Democrats is to nominate a governor, somebody who never had to vote at all on the damn war."


--------------------
"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."

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Re: Democrats: Deceit made us back war [Re: daimyo]
    #4901083 -

To some extent, I could accept the fact that some of them may have actually believed Bush's claims. But all of them? I think a better explanation is that they're spineless pussies.


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Re: Democrats: Deceit made us back war [Re: daimyo]
    #4901115 -

We are a nation at war. The support at the homefront is waning, and just as we need some strong central leadership to pull the country together, the democrats decide to use the lack of support for the war as political capital. It isn't about America anymore is it? Losing a war should not be an option at this point. It should only be winning. We need to win, and if we don't win we at least can't give up. Vietnam has done far too much harm to our country than previously thought. We have a defeatist attitude now, and I only hope my generation can rise above the filth that is running our country now.

Bush might have started the war, but America is fighting it. Too bad our own congress doesn't even understand that. Fuck them.


--------------------
I am in love with Acidic_Sloth


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Re: Democrats: Deceit made us back war [Re: looner2]
    #4901122 -

Quote:
It isn't about America anymore is it?



It never was. That goes for both sides.


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Re: Democrats: Deceit made us back war [Re: Silversoul]
    #4901634 -

Paradigm said:
To some extent, I could accept the fact that some of them may have actually believed Bush's claims. But all of them? I think a better explanation is that they're spineless pussies.



I hate to have to make the argument for the billionth time, but Bush was not the one making the claims in the first place. You can trace them all the way back from the CIA to Bill Clinton and Madeline Albright. Even French intelligence believed Saddam Hussein had WMDs. Pretty much no informed person except perhaps Scott Ritter actually believed Iraq was not in posession of weapons.

Bush didn't just come up with these claims one day and then all the democrats who knew better went to war anyways to look cool. Sorry but that is pretty misinformed. Even Carl Levin, who was on the Senate Armed Forces Commitee, who was privy to all the exact information Bush was made the same claims. Now he wants to say he was misled. That is bullshit, he saw the evidence himself and made up his own mind. The war is no longer popular and now he and the democrats want to about face. It's pretty pathetic.

Some can play the stupid card and admit they went along with the war for political reasons, but those who were informed cannot pretend to have been tricked.


--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."

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Re: Democrats: Deceit made us back war [Re: daimyo]
    #4902213 -

alot of ppl that initially supported the war will prolly tell you that they were duped ..

http://www.pollingreport.com/iraq.htm

so its quite possible that the said congressional democrats really do think they were duped..along with everyone else in that poll...in either case..at least their not trying to defend an indefensible vote for the war anymore...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...

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Re: Democrats: Deceit made us back war [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #4902268 -

you're making the same illogical leap that lonestar was.

yes, madeline albright and clinton and plenty of repub and
demo senators claimed saddam was a threat in the 90's, before
sanctions were ratcheted up along patrols and united nations
intervention.

since that time, bush's own cabinet, powell and rice had
publically stated that saddam was not a threat to his neighbors
and had been effectively contained.

that was as late as 2001...then, 9/11 hits and suddenly
saddam is back on the hotlist...and we've seen the tenuous
nature of the *ties* between saddam and the perpetrators
of the attacks on 9/11.

rummy's immediately expressed desire to place this all on
saddam and use it as a pretext to attack iraq is very telling
considering what we know about who was actually behind the
attacks as well as the final results of the most poignant of
the ever shifting pretenses for war....wmds...where are they?!


--------------------
All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.

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Re: Democrats: Deceit made us back war [Re: Silversoul]
    #4902651 -

Technically, Saddam was not meeting the requirements set out by the U.N.

He was supposed to provide evidence and information as to the dismantling of the weapons previously found in Iraq. He wasn't doing so, and so the U.N. kept issuing resolution after resolution..

Finally, the U.S. backed that resolution up even though the spineless U.N. failed to.

If we're gonna be in the U.N., the LEAST we can do is give the U.N. a spine that no other country is willing to give it.

Personal opinion...we should screw the U.N., leave other countries alone, and deal with out own problems. This includes foreign aid.

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Re: Democrats: Deceit made us back war [Re: afoaf]
    #4902890 -

afoaf said:
you're making the same illogical leap that lonestar was.

yes, madeline albright and clinton and plenty of repub and
demo senators claimed saddam was a threat in the 90's, before
sanctions were ratcheted up along patrols and united nations
intervention.

since that time, bush's own cabinet, powell and rice had
publically stated that saddam was not a threat to his neighbors
and had been effectively contained.

that was as late as 2001...then, 9/11 hits and suddenly
saddam is back on the hotlist...and we've seen the tenuous
nature of the *ties* between saddam and the perpetrators
of the attacks on 9/11.

rummy's immediately expressed desire to place this all on
saddam and use it as a pretext to attack iraq is very telling
considering what we know about who was actually behind the
attacks as well as the final results of the most poignant of
the ever shifting pretenses for war....wmds...where are they?!



Neither Powell nor Rice claimed Saddam Hussein did not have WMDs. What they said was the same thing Clinton Admin officials did, that we had him contained. We had destroyed the Iraqi air defense systems and long range missiles, and had troops stationed in Saudi Arabia. What happened was a change in policy, not a change in information.

Bush did not invent new WMD claims, he just changed the threat status of the country. Instead of being safely confined Iraq was then seen as a post 911 ticking time bomb. Perhaps they were over-correcting for the Clinton and first year Bush attitude towards Al-Qaeda. It seems they may have believed Iraq was involved in 911. You can disagree with that logic, but it does not change the facts that all the evidence that anyone in the Congress and White House had indicated Saddam had WMDs and all the Democrats on the Armed Forces and Intelligence Commitees were in concurence.


--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."

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Re: Democrats: Deceit made us back war [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #4904392 -

Bump. I want people to read my last post so I don't have to explain a millions times over.


--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."

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Re: Democrats: Deceit made us back war [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #4904429 -

Divided_Sky said:
Bump. I want people to read my last post so I don't have to explain a millions times over.



Good post, but even if you put the post in your signature you will have to explain this a millions times over....


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

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Re: Democrats: Deceit made us back war [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #4904445 -

Powell on 24 February 2001 in a press conference in Cairo:

We had a good discussion, the Foreign Minister and I and the President and I, had a good discussion about the nature of the sanctions -- the fact that the sanctions exist -- not for the purpose of hurting the Iraqi people, but for the purpose of keeping in check Saddam Hussein's ambitions toward developing weapons of mass destruction. We should constantly be reviewing our policies, constantly be looking at those sanctions to make sure that they are directed toward that purpose. That purpose is every bit as important now as it was ten years ago when we began it. And frankly they have worked. He has not developed any significant capability with respect to weapons of mass destruction. He is unable to project conventional power against his neighbors. So in effect, our policies have strengthened the security of the neighbors of Iraq...

Powell on 15 May 2001, before the Foreign Operations, Export Financing and Related Programs Subcommittee of the Senate Appropriations Committee:

Senator Bennett: Mr. Secretary, the U.N. sanctions on Iraq expire the beginning of June. We've had bombs dropped, we've had threats made, we've had all kinds of activity vis-a-vis Iraq in the previous administration. Now we're coming to the end. What's our level of concern about the progress of Saddam Hussein's chemical and biological weapons programs?

Secretary Powell: The sanctions, as they are called, have succeeded over the last 10 years, not in deterring him from moving in that direction, but from actually being able to move in that direction. The Iraqi regime militarily remains fairly weak. It doesn't have the capacity it had 10 or 12 years ago. It has been contained. And even though we have no doubt in our mind that the Iraqi regime is pursuing programs to develop weapons of mass destruction -- chemical, biological and nuclear -- I think the best intelligence estimates suggest that they have not been terribly successful. There's no question that they have some stockpiles of some of these sorts of weapons still under their control, but they have not been able to break out, they have not been able to come out with the capacity to deliver these kinds of systems or to actually have these kinds of systems that is much beyond where they were 10 years ago.

Rice on 29 July 2001

But in terms of Saddam Hussein being there, let's remember that his country is divided, in effect. He does not control the northern part of his country. We are able to keep arms from him. His military forces have not been rebuilt.

=================================================

Both of these key players concede, yes, he probabaly does have some remnants
of old programs, but largely he has been contained and his military might
weakened to a point that he is no longer capable of threatening his neighbors
let alone the US directly nor is he in a position to resume those programs
and grow his aresenal.

Yet, less than 2 months later, 9/11 hits and without any direct evidence
on the matter, Rummy begins to use it as a pretext for war with Iraq and
the president begins the campaign for that war under the guise of mushroom
clouds over American cities...all based on the very same data that had
pointed to containment if not impotency.

all that being said...a change in policy should have been guided by
changes in intel, but what seems to be the case is that this intel
did not change...it was the same intelligence that these two had
previously based their public statements on. what it appears to be
is that with the leverage of 9/11, they could additionally inflate
that very same intel as a means to assure their ability to get the
resolutions through congress to go to war with iraq...which, to me,
seems like a gravely dishonest and manipulative thing to do....to
make an about face on the previous interpretations on data in an effort
to compliment the morally corrupt politization of 9/11 as a catalyst
for war with iraq...a country not prominently responsible for the
september 11th attacks.


--------------------
All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.

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Re: Democrats: Deceit made us back war [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #4904476 -

So, in summary:
The democrats are just as hypocritical, power hungry and duplicitous as the republicans. Therefore we should support the republicans instead of the democrats.


--------------------
Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.

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Re: Democrats: Deceit made us back war [Re: afoaf]
    #4904537 -

Saddam was a threat in general,and i know we cannot remove every single dictator on Earth....but 500 tons of uranium is all i needed to know.



U.S. considering moving 500 tons of uranium from Iraq

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20040522/news_1n22uranium.html


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

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Re: Democrats: Deceit made us back war [Re: looner2]
    #4904553 -

Quote:
Losing a war should not be an option at this point. It should only be winning.



Peace should always be the goal of a nation. Your words confuse me.


--------------------
:orly:


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Re: Democrats: Deceit made us back war [Re: Microcosmatrix]
    #4904597 -

Microcosmatrix said:
Quote:
Losing a war should not be an option at this point. It should only be winning.



Your words confuse me.



Read them again


--------------------
I am in love with Acidic_Sloth


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Re: Democrats: Deceit made us back war [Re: looner2]
    #4904626 -

Afoaf, what was established was that Iraq did not have the capabilities to launch weapons at anybody or carry out a military assault. Read your quotes again, they never say that his WMD materials are gone. They say his army is weak, his ability to "project" weapons is gone, and his country is divided. It says he is "contained". Nobody ever decided that the stockpiles that he reported to have and apparently did not destroy (but probobly did destroy) just vanished away.

The real issue was the fear of Saddam Hussein potentially using terrorists for a proxy attack. In which case his weapons launching capabilites would be mostly irrelavent. The global terrorism issue was responsible for a re-evaluation of Iraq as a threat, and conventional WMD launch capabilities were not the only criteria. It doesn't matter how contained Iraq's army is, if Saddam Hussein did give weapons materials to terrorists the results could be just as deadly.

If you selectively ignore the context then you can concoct all sorts of nefarious schemes. In reality it seems pretty clear to me, Bush thought "Oh shit, terrorists can attack us!" and then realized that conventional military attacks were not the only thing to defend against. He saw Iraq is a POTENTIAL threat in that they could and might have the motive to aid terrorists in the future with WMDs. Bush himself never said Iraq was an immenant threat, that was the democrats who insisted it be before they authorize war powers. It was not. I was never confused in the slightest that what we were worrying about was an oil-rich North Korea in the middle east comming into contact with terrorists. I got the message, so I don't personaly see any lies or shifting motives there.

It's a nice conspiracy theory, but then the Democrats would have to be seriously brain damaged, and of course every other intelligence agency in the world, to fall for the WMD line.


--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."

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Re: Democrats: Deceit made us back war [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #4904697 -

The real issue was the fear of Saddam Hussein potentially using terrorists for a proxy attack. In which case his weapons launching capabilites would be mostly irrelavent. The global terrorism issue was responsible for a re-evaluation of Iraq as a threat, and conventional WMD launch capabilities were not the only criteria. It doesn't matter how contained Iraq's army is, if Saddam Hussein did give weapons materials to terrorists the results could be just as deadly.

I have conceded that their quotes do indicate that weapons weren't
entirely gone and that he did likely have remnants.

I also agree with the cited point above, they should have done a
better job of communicating that scenario to people.

But even then, at worst, they (iraq) would have been able to distribute
old bio/chem weapons who may or may not have already exceeded their
shelf life.

The use of the nuclear threat from saddam or his proxies was an
egregious stretch of the information and imagination. One that
may stand out above the legitimate premises that could have been
culled from the situation and used as a premise for further scrutiny
and negative pr for the administration.


--------------------
All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.

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Re: Democrats: Deceit made us back war [Re: afoaf]
    #4904729 -

the administration is clueless about PR.


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

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Re: Democrats: Deceit made us back war [Re: lonestar2004]
    #4904817 -

Democrats need to re define their party....this type of activity has not got them any were in the past two years...why do it again?


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

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