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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: the war [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1382797 - 03/17/03 04:31 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

After two years of finding no evidence of a link between Iraq and Bin Laden the day before an illegal war with no UN support is launched, a link is found. If you want to believe it, go ahead. I'll reserve judgement for a while yet.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Anonymous

Re: the war [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1382999 - 03/17/03 05:54 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Not everything in the world is a conspiracy.

yeah, but this is total bullshit.

SPAIN made the link? please.

what utter nonsense. bin laden and saddam are enemies. don't believe this bullshit.

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
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Posts: 34,247
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Re: the war [Re: ]
    #1383065 - 03/17/03 06:20 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

what utter nonsense. bin laden and saddam are enemies. don't believe this bullshit.



So.... in the history of the world no enemies ever joined forces to vanquish a common foe?

The bullshit I don't believe is you being so quick to assume because they don't like each other, that they don't hate the US more.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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OfflinePhred
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Re: the war [Re: Xlea321]
    #1383228 - 03/17/03 07:15 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Alex123 writes:

This isn't Rambo IV. Innocent people are the ones who are going to get "taken out". It's more than likely Saddam will escape and live a happy life in another country.

So your solution is to let Hussein retain power. I see.

What exactly do you want?

Well, my question was -- "if not now, then when?" We already know your answer is "never", so I am not surprised your "answer" bore no relation to the question.

The first thing you do is stop arming and funding dictators like Saddam in the first place.

It would be great if there was such a thing as a time machine, wouldn't it?

Then, amazingly enough, you don't have to wipe out thousands of innocent people to remove them from power.

But of course, since there is no such thing as a time machine, it is useless to take any action, right Alex? We all should just suffer in silence the consequences of actions taken by short-sighted men two dozen years ago.

Removing Saddam and installing another vicious dictator isn't the way you do it.

Who says the Iraqis would elect another vicious dictator? Even if they did, he'd be running a country with about three tanks, two jeeps and a Cessna 150 left in running order.

DON'T INSTALL, FUND AND ARM DICTATORS IN THE FIRST PLACE THEN ALL OUR PROBLEMS ARE SOLVED.

Already done. A long time ago. Unfortunately, there are still a few left from the old days. Soon there will be one less.

Do you want George Bush to have the god-given right to remove every dictator he doesn't like today?

Before I answer a new question of yours, please answer these old ones of mine:

1) Do you agree with the UN decision to expel the Iraqi occupation army from Kuwait by force in 1991?
Yes _______
No ________
I choose not to answer this question because it is nonsensical ________
Additional comments ____________________________________

2) Do you agree with their decision to leave Hussein in power in 1991 rather than eliminating him when they had the chance?
Yes _______
No ________
I choose not to answer this question because it is nonsensical ________
Additional comments ____________________________________

3) If Hussein continues to ignore the terms of the 1991 surrender agreement should the UN continue to do nothing more than file more condemnatory resolutions?
Yes _______
No________
I choose not to answer this question because it is nonsensical ________

3 a) If you answered "no", what other actions should the UN take instead of or in addition to filing more resolutions?
i) _____________________________
ii) ____________________________
iii)____________________________

4) If the UN had supported this proposed military action the way they supported the Gulf War, would you still oppose military intervention in Iraq?
Yes________
No_________
I choose not to answer this question because it is nonsensical ________
Additional comments ____________________________________

5) Rank the following possibilities to the resolution of the Iraq situation from best option (1) to second best (2), to third best (3), etc. Feel free to add as many more options of your own as you wish, including them (of course) in the ranking.

( ) -- Hussein resigns voluntarily, free democratic elections in Iraq are held.

( ) -- Hussein is overthrown (or assassinated) by internal Iraqi agents, free elections in Iraq are held.

( ) -- Hussein fulfills all the terms of the 1991 surrender agreement, and continues as Ultimate Leader of Iraq.

( ) -- Hussein is captured (or assassinated) by a "SWAT team" of agents of a foreign power, free elections in Iraq are held.

( ) -- Hussein is captured or killed by a UN-backed military invasion of Iraq, free elections in Iraq are held.

( ) -- Hussein is captured or killed by a military invasion of Iraq that has no UN approval, free elections in Iraq are held.

( ) -- The UN lifts all sanctions, and arranges loans large enough to rebuild Iraq on the condition that Iraq fulfills all the terms of the 1991 surrender agreement, with the additional proviso that Hussein resign and free democratic elections in Iraq are held.

( ) -- The UN lifts all sanctions, and arranges loans large enough to rebuild Iraq on the condition that Iraq fulfills all the terms of the 1991 surrender agreement, Hussein remains in power.

( ) -- The UN lifts all sanctions, and arranges loans large enough to rebuild Iraq, Hussein remains in power. (kudos to Gazzbut for suggesting this option)

( ) -- The UN lifts all sanctions, imposes a stronger inspection regime, and investigates other countries known to possess WMD and violate human rights. Hussein remains in power. (kudos to Gazzbut for suggesting this option)

( ) -- The UN lifts all sanctions, and no one takes any further action apart from filing resolutions condemning Iraq, Hussein remains in power.

( ) -- Alex123 proposal A
( ) -- Alex123 proposal B
( ) -- Alex123 proposal C

( ) -- I choose not to rank the above because they are nonsensical, and I won't provide any options of my own.

Thank you.

pinky


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Anonymous

Re: the war [Re: Phred]
    #1383238 - 03/17/03 07:18 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

if there was any indication that there would indeed be democratic elections held after this mess, i'd be alot more supportive of it. i very much doubt that there will be.

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OfflinePhred
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Re: the war [Re: ]
    #1383327 - 03/17/03 07:46 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

mushmaster writes:

if there was any indication that there would indeed be democratic elections held after this mess, i'd be alot more supportive of it. i very much doubt that there will be.

Why do you doubt it? Bush has stated repeatedly that there will be. Democratic elections were held in Germany after the war, and in Japan, and in Nicaragua, and in South Korea, etc. Democratic elections will be held in Afghanistan as soon as the UN gets its act together.

Can you give us one example of the US conquering a foreign belligerent and then NOT holding free elections?

pinky


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Anonymous

Re: the war [Re: Phred]
    #1383345 - 03/17/03 07:51 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

well that's good news then.

but what if the democratically elected leader isn't friendly to the united states? what if he's not down with all of our plans for the oil fields?

i'm not so sure if they're gonna let that sort of thing happen.

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OfflinePhred
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Re: the war [Re: ]
    #1383398 - 03/17/03 08:04 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

but what if the democratically elected leader isn't friendly to the united states?

You mean like the democratically elected leader of France, for example?

Who cares whether he is or he isn't? If the Iraqi people choose to elect someone who hates the US, so be it. The main point is that he will have zero military capability with which to cause trouble. And if he spends all Iraq's money re-arming rather than doing good stuff for his citizens, he won't get re-elected, will he?

pinky


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: the war [Re: Phred]
    #1383613 - 03/17/03 09:03 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

But of course, since there is no such thing as a time machine,

Do you apply this ass-backwards logic to all aspects of your life pink? Do you go out and hit someone over the head with a hammer and then go "It's too late, I've hit them with it now, what do i do. Answer me that?". My advice is it's best not to hit them over the head with a hammer in the first place. Saves a lot of problems.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: the war [Re: Phred]
    #1383621 - 03/17/03 09:07 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Democratic elections will be held in Afghanistan as soon as the UN gets its act together.

Oh please. The Northern Alliance (newly armed and funded by the US) now control the vast majority of Afghanistan. You can forget about elections.

Can you give us one example of the US conquering a foreign belligerent and then NOT holding free elections?

Afghanistan. 4 months ago. Remember?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: the war [Re: Phred]
    #1383633 - 03/17/03 09:11 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

If the Iraqi people choose to elect someone who hates the US, so be it.

Don't be silly.

The main point is that he will have zero military capability with which to cause trouble.

How much military capability did it take to crash two airliners into the world trade center? How much military capability does it take to make a dirty nuclear bomb and walk over the american border with a briefcase? Military capability isn't really too important to terrorism.

And if he spends all Iraq's money re-arming rather than doing good stuff for his citizens, he won't get re-elected, will he?

Say goodnight to the folks Gracie...


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Anonymous

Re: the war [Re: Xlea321]
    #1384046 - 03/17/03 10:57 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

yes. i very much doubt that the new 'elected' leader of iraq will be anything other than a US puppet.

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Anonymous

Re: the war [Re: Xlea321]
    #1384067 - 03/17/03 11:01 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

and nations are stable these days. a nation is a good enemy. saddam hussien is much less of a threat than the slew of terrorists that this whole thing is going to infuriate.

it doesn't take any military capability at all to buy a few hundred pounds of fertilizer, or poison a resevoir, or walk away from a hospital with some stolen cesium. we can win the battle of iraq, but it's going to set us back in the war on terror.

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OfflinePhred
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Re: the war [Re: Xlea321]
    #1385157 - 03/17/03 04:03 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Alex123 writes:

Do you apply this ass-backwards logic to all aspects of your life pink?

Alex, your answer to "what should be done" is always "It's too late to do anything, we wouldn't be in this mess if ____ or ______ or ______ hadn't been done more than twenty years ago."

Well guess what? Those things were done more than twenty years ago, by people no longer in a position to undo them. You provide NO solutions, you merely fulminate (with the 20/20 hindsight that we ALL possess NOW) that bad decisions were made in the past. Well, DUH!

My advice is it's best not to hit them over the head with a hammer in the first place.

Yes, we know that is your advice. Now what is your advice on how to handle the current situation in Iraq? So far, since you refuse to answer any questions of substance, the closest you have come to actually taking a stand on it is to say that the UN should lift sanctions and let Hussein remain in power despite his non-fulfillment of even one single condition of the conditional surrender of 1991.

That's real insightful. Plenty of deep geopolotical awareness demonstrated there.

pinky



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OfflinePhred
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Re: the war [Re: Xlea321]
    #1385168 - 03/17/03 04:06 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Alex123 writes:

Afghanistan. 4 months ago. Remember?

As you are well aware, it is the UN supervisors who bear responsibility for scheduling elections, NOT the US. If you feel the time has come for those elections to be held, feel free to pass your recommendations on to Kofi Anan.

pinky


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OfflinePhred
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Re: the war [Re: Xlea321]
    #1385183 - 03/17/03 04:09 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Alex123 writes:

How much military capability did it take to crash two airliners into the world trade center? How much military capability does it take to make a dirty nuclear bomb and walk over the american border with a briefcase? Military capability isn't really too important to terrorism.

If the Iraqi people choose to elect a government which sponsors terrorism, that government will meet the same fate the Taliban did.

pinky


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: the war [Re: Phred]
    #1385494 - 03/17/03 05:26 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Those things were done more than twenty years ago, by people no longer in a position to undo them

Tell you what. Funding and supporting the nightmarish Northern Alliance warlords is going to cause catastrophic trouble in Afghanistan. That's my bet. Ok?

That's why instead of pissing off, abandoning Afghanistan and blowing yet more billions bombing Iraq you stay and help rebuild Afghanistan first. It's no use invading some place and leaving the country in the hands of brutal warlords. You don't hindsight to know that's a seriously fucking stupid thing to do. Btw, this was done a few months ago by the current president of the US.

As you are well aware, it is the UN supervisors who bear responsibility for scheduling elections, NOT the US.

Strange. So once you've bombed a place you wash your hands of it and hand over responsibility to the UN? If only the US always gave the UN this much responsibility. The UN has refused permission for the US to bomb Iraq and yet it is blatantly and illegally ignoring it.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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OfflinePhred
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Re: the war [Re: Xlea321]
    #1385656 - 03/17/03 06:05 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Alex123 writes:

So once you've bombed a place you wash your hands of it and hand over responsibility to the UN?

It was a UN coalition that took out the Taliban. There were Canadians there, and English.

If the US were to say "Nuh-uh, United Nations, we are gonna run these elections all by ourselves," you'd burst a blood vessel from apoplexy sputtering about the US "installing" a leader.

pinky


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
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Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
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Re: the war [Re: Phred]
    #1386205 - 03/17/03 09:40 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

If the US were to say "Nuh-uh, United Nations, we are gonna run these elections all by ourselves," you'd burst a blood vessel from apoplexy sputtering about the US "installing" a leader.



Very true.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: the war [Re: Phred]
    #1386907 - 03/18/03 04:58 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

It was a UN coalition that took out the Taliban

The UN was there yeah, but most of the ground fighting was done by the Northern Alliance supported by the yanks dropping daisy cutters.

we are gonna run these elections all by ourselves

Forget about elections for a while. The country needs rebuilding. Let the yanks concentrate on feeding everyone in the country and rebuilding infrastructure. The cost of those 3000 cruise missiles they're going to let rip at Iraq would be a nice start.

It's no use blowing fuck out of a country, handing power over to savage dictators then moving onto the next poor place. That's never gonna work.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


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