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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics > The Psychedelic Experience
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Psychedelic-using cultures
    #4837324 -

*Please bear in mind that my intentions are simply to resolve this seeming paradox.*

As many of us know, from first hand or second hand accounts, there seems to be some consciousness expanding power to psychedelics. Terence McKenna, for example, believed the mushroom was responsible for catalyzing the evolution of language. I want to believe this, that there actually is some kind of mushroom intelligence or information, in DNA form or whatever, stored in these compounds. That they are not simply inhibiting awareness of interhemisphere brain communication, making signals from the right brain seem like alien entities to the left.

In light of this, psychedelic-using cultures pose somewhat of a problem. It seems that throughout history, cultures that have accepted (if only ritual) use of the more psychedelic of entheogens have been conquered over and over again. If the mushroom wants us to take it with us to the stars, why doesn't it motivate the cultures most allied to it to technological advancement?

I realize technology has its downside (pollution, the destruction of Gaia, etc.) but it's also the best we can do. Even if the psychedelic ideals somehow came to power, would anyone really shut down the internet? Is there some quality of the psychedelic experience that causes it to have the opposite effect when taken by a culture as a whole as opposed to by individuals? I'd like to hear whatever suggestions and ideas you might have.

Adolfo

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Re: Psychedelic-using cultures [Re: Adolfo]
    #4837538 -

now im confused


--------------------
never be afraid to let your mind explore, just know what you are getting into b4 you jump in the deep end, and do your research on this site and erowid.com

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Re: Psychedelic-using cultures [Re: Adolfo]
    #4837591 -

I'm not sure exactly what you're asking here. Many societies that implore the use of the entheogens within a ritualistic context are still vibrant and untouched. Take for example the Urarina in the Chambira basin of Peru. This group has had very limited contact and continues to take Ayahausca to this day for divination, healing, and hunting magic.

Technology is an integral part of all societies, as Pierre Levy said, "not only is technology imagined, fabricated, and reinterpreted for use by humankind, but it is this intensive use of tools that constitute our humanity as such." Now, when many people think of technology they think of science, electronics, and such, however, this is simply not the fact. Technology is culturally specific - for example, hunting magic is a kind of technology.

So, from this perspective, the entheogens themselves are a sort of technology. They don't hold back technological development, they simply act as an aide in the daily lives of those that use them. If we think about technological development over time, I believe it all comes down to population size and need. If you're within a hunter-gather group then your population is going to be very low and the majority of your needs are immediately fulfilled. There's no need for computers or what-have-you. Everything that you could possibly need is right there.

I personally have a hard time believing that the entheogens have any sort of intelligence, as this relies on an animistic viewpoint, something that I (along with the majority of the citizens of the United States) am lacking.

As for shutting down the internet, that's just absurd. You should check out some readings on Technoshamanism.

So, I'm still not sure exactly what you're asking, and this post is surely a bit convluted, but I hope that it makes some sort of sense in relation to your post....

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Re: Psychedelic-using cultures [Re: the_psychonaut]
    #4837594 -

the information that we realize when we take mushrooms is simply information to keep us on track. it doesn't say anything about how to do things, it just tells us if the things we are already doing jive with what should be happening.

you seem to equate not taking psychedelics with a growth in technology. this is not correct...many innovators have been influenced by psychedelics. the ability to see "the big picture" more easily when under the influence of psychedelic drugs is sometimes key in seeing what new technology needs to be developed, and perhaps even how to develop it.

the people who used technology to do things that were wrong, such as stealing native lands and such are the people who weren't using psychedelics.

you would argue that america was pretty successful, right? well i'm pretty convinced that the founding fathers all took mushrooms. (they were freemasons) of course, you can't argue that these men were SO great, seeing as some of them owned slaves and fought indians. but their understanding of the world was different back then i guess. (not that what the did was right though).


"If the mushroom wants us to take it with us to the stars, why doesn't it motivate the cultures most allied to it to technological advancement?"

in short..i disagree. it does motivate the individuals (keep in mind that culture is undefinable, and therefore, meaningless) most allied to it to technological advancement.

"Even if the psychedelic ideals somehow came to power, would anyone really shut down the internet?"

i think you don't quite have an understanding of how all this stuff works. ideas (not ideals) realized through the use of psychedelics are what inspire man to create. to create art. to create the internet. to create space ships. the internet is an integral part of how information about psychedelic use IS spread (the shroomery is evidence enough of that). mushrooms will always find their way.

ok ill stop this rambling post. hope that helped a little.

-nonick

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Re: Psychedelic-using cultures [Re: Adolfo]
    #4837848 -

I think McKenna's mushroom language theory was not the same as his theory regarding mushroom intelligence. I think he thought that prehistoric man walked through the savanna and ended up eating mushrooms, which caused synaesthesia (blending of senses), which supported the formation of language. Language is, after all, a synaeshtetic construct. Taking a concept and putting that concept in someone elses brain by moving the mouth and vocal chords a certain way is the nature of language. I can see how psychedelics may have catalyzed this, but of course there's no evidence.
While anything, including psychedelics, can be used for bad, I think the trip, among other things, shows you that there is so much bad going on in the world, and it gives you compassion for the world and its inhabitants and a drive to make things better. When the west got hold of acid for the first time, what did we try to do? Mind control. Then the psychedelic movement was picked up and marketed, kids missed the point, and the movement was a failure in the end. It just goes to show you that technological culture as a whole cannot mix with accepted psychedelic use. Though we have the luxury of much free time, we are quite disconnected. We're disconnected from the things that motivate us, the things that cause us to do the things we do. We're disconnected from our own health. Our goals are self-serving. We're out of synch with nature, using up resources and changing the globe while not putting anything back in. We're short sited. Though our technology is highly advanced, we are near-sited. All of these things dissolve during a trip. Therefore, cultures that use psychedelics ritually are necessarily based upon quite different ideas than tehcnological cultures. This is the reason they were so often conquered or dissolved in the past. The conquerers' cultures were based upon the idea that one must continuously expand and exert power in order to survive. Meaning comes from might. Entheogenic cultures see the emptiness of such causation, and so they don't develop the defense or technology necessary to defend themselves against invasion. Then, in order to maintain the social mechanims that keep a large technological culture alive, they had to remove psychedelics from the scene. At least, that's how I see it in a nutshell. I'm no expert on the subject.

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Re: Psychedelic-using cultures [Re: nycomyco]
    #4837954 -

Quote:
nycomyco said:Entheogenic cultures see the emptiness of such causation, and so they don't develop the defense or technology necessary to defend themselves against invasion.


This is definitely not the case, all cultures have defense mechanisms and warfare. The largest entheogenic complex, that of the Aztecs, was quite violent. Human sacrifice, warfare, etc were commonplace. There's artifacts from the Aztecs that depict people wearing the skin and faces of others, people with their bowels being removed, people being decapitated, and other atrocities. Entheogen use does not equal egalitarianism nor does it equal friendliness.

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Re: Psychedelic-using cultures [Re: billy cuts]
    #4837991 -

I don't think psychedelics had anything to do with why cultures were destroyed.
You should read the book, "Guns, Germs, And Steel."

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Re: Psychedelic-using cultures [Re: billy cuts]
    #4839288 -

Point taken.
But it is clear that the advance in technology and world capitalism has coincided with a phasing out of psychedelic cultures. Even the major religions of today have lost most of the traces of their original mysticism.
Trips can go either way I suppose. They usually lead to a tolerance of selflessness, to an extent, but they can also, within the right context and in certain hands, lead to self (and nationalistic) aggrandizement.
I was thinking more along the lines of Buddhist Civilization in India up to (I think) 1000 CE. That was an amazing culture, and although it wasn't based on psychedelic use, the ideas that Buddhism espoused, (compassion, education, wisdom, voidness..) are similar to the lessons often learned from psychedelic use, in my opinion. That civilization, for a long time, was quite anti-militaristic and it spread without use of force. There were more universities there at that time than perhaps any place in history. Progressive for its time, education was seen as a universal necessity, perhaps as a result of the socially equalizing force of selflessness. Even in modern Tibet, the chinese killed off many tibetans without much resistence.
But I'm drawing way too many conclusions from this example.

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Re: Psychedelic-using cultures [Re: nycomyco]
    #4840731 -

Thanks for all the replies..
Sorry if my question was a little vague. I guess I just wanted other perspectives on why
Quote:
technological culture as a whole cannot mix with accepted psychedelic use

?
Perhaps it's less of a technological issue and more of a free market capitalist issue. Maybe he reason the west got the technology necessary to invade the new world is because they had more contact with other cultures and therefore access to trade. Maybe it isn't technology and entheogens that don't mix but rather that money-making and entheogens don't mix.
Anyway, so entheogens are a technology. Maybe this was what allowed the Aztecs to know the exact date of the Spanish invasion. I'm sorry if this goes against higher values, but when it comes down to it, although the Spanish might have had 'uglier' cultural values, they were 'fitter,' inasmuch as they wiped out the Aztecs.
So, while it doesn't really become a rational argument to explore such themes as whether the mushroom is intelligent, this is another potential theory. Maybe it _wants_ to be illegal. As soon as it sees itself becoming commercialized, etc. it becomes illegal. This would certainly fit in with the clash with mercantilism.

Quote:
Many societies that implore the use of the entheogens within a ritualistic context are still vibrant and untouched. Take for example the Urarina in the Chambira basin of Peru. This group has had very limited contact and continues to take Ayahausca to this day for divination, healing, and hunting magic.


True, but how long do you think it will be before contact is made? When I look at other Ayahuasca-using cultures that have been come into contact with, the younger generation almost always forgets how to make it and moves to big cities.

Quote:
Technology is culturally specific


So why did entheogen technology fall out of use in _our_ culture?

Quote:
you seem to equate not taking psychedelics with a growth in technology.


Not necessarily. I was simply making an observation based on historical trends. That is, culture-wide acceptance and/or continued use of the more powerful of the hallucinogenic etheogens seems to be correlated with a stable state of 'primitive' cultural goals and values.

Quote:
I don't think psychedelics had anything to do with why cultures were destroyed.


Anyway, this is straying from the point. I don't pretend to have a real thesis or anything on the subject, I was simply looking for discussion. I guess my frustration with this issue spawns from hearing so many people glorify entheogen-using cultures, when they really aren't a model for our society. I don't agree with the invasion of their home and I think preserving their uniqueness is probably a good idea.

The state of these cultures also worries me as someone who thinks about taking psychedelics. It's often said, "Oh the so-and-so culture have been taking it for hundreds of years." Great, but that doesn't mean I want to end up like them compared to us.

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Re: Psychedelic-using cultures [Re: Adolfo]
    #4840992 -

I do not know much about a lot of those cultures but I do know that there are some cultures that are very easygoing. Maybe if we looked more into it we would find that we would like to live there. Just because a culture is not technologically advanced doesn't mean it would be a bad place to live.

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Re: Psychedelic-using cultures [Re: Adolfo]
    #4841421 -

hmm its hard to see what you're trying to get at with this post..

i dont think psychedelics had anything to do with the downfall of civilizations or cultures. in terms of technology, thats a difficult one to answer. technology helps us, but its clear we can live without it, as these psychedelic-using cultures do. if anything, the using cultures are more in tune with whats around them, the nature around them, and theyre less prone to destroying it by adapting new age technology.

i dont know much about mckennas mushroom theories, but i remember something about the spores coming from space, or something. not sure if i entirely believe that, but i do believe that users of psychedelics like mushrooms definately have an upper hand over non users. but in terms of being "conquered".. a culture with new technology like guns and other "advancements" would definately have an upper hand over a culture based around "relaxed" life, with psychedelic use. the relaxed culture simply cant be bothered with the new technology, why would they care if they can continue to live the way they do, and the way they have for a long ass time

maybe im way off base, but im not sure what you were trying to get at  :crazy:

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Re: Psychedelic-using cultures [Re: pH_]
    #4841549 -

What I'm trying to get at is this:
You say mushroom users have the upper hand, and I want to support this, but I can't find any evidence in the big picture of civilization and history. I mean, would anyone really want be raised in one of those cultures rather than theirs(ours)? Our science gives us longer lifespans, better defense against disease, etc. I guess what it comes down to is this: what could be the advantages of taking mushrooms (on a cultural level)?
I guess I'm just trying to fit psychedelics within the framework of contemporary society. I know it's hard, so I looked to successful frameworks as basic examples. Sorry if I came to unwarranted conclusions about technology and what have you.

Edited by Adolfo (10/23/05 02:00 PM)

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Re: Psychedelic-using cultures [Re: Adolfo]
    #4841671 -

Adolfo said:
What I'm trying to get at is this:
You say mushroom users have the upper hand, and I want to support this, but I can't find any evidence in the big picture of civilization and history. I mean, would anyone really want be raised in one of those cultures rather than theirs(ours)? Our science gives us longer lifespans, better defense against disease, etc. I guess what it comes down to is this: what could be the advantages of taking mushrooms (on a cultural level)?
I guess I'm just trying to fit psychedelics within the framework of contemporary society. I know it's hard, so I looked to successful frameworks as basic examples. Sorry if I came to unwarranted conclusions about technology and what have you.


this is my opinion, but psychedelics dont really fit todays framework. speaking for the US, they would rather have you be a sheep than have an open mind. an open mind is a questioning mind, they dont want you questioning the government.

true, science does give us great benefits, but it also gives us huge headaches. look around you.. look what technology has done to the land around you. technology is constantly changing the environment, which disrupts the natural "flow" of things. whole ecosystems get fucked up, which in return fucks up other ecosystems, other animals, other organisms. the "contemporary society" is to blame for this, because contemporary society forgets that we depend on whats around us. need food? go to the food store. need clothing? go to the clothing store. need shelter? go to the hardware store. i feel that psychedelics open your eyes to see that you dont necessarily need everything you have today. you dont need all the shit you have around you to survive and thrive.

im not sure what benefits cultures get from psychedelics, unless you're refering to stuff like creativity benefits (music, art, etc). i guess it could help individuals since it sharpens senses, helps with hunting, stuff like that.

you could prevent some disease and stuff like that by simply boiling water, keeping yourself clean, dont go into dirty water with open cuts/sores.. etc. i dont know if id like to be raised in a primitive culture, but i would surely like to live in a place without the crap society of today.. give me a place with good land to grow crops, by a river so i could build a small generator for lighting.. and shit im fine :sun:

no need for an apology, im not even sure if i answered your question in all of this post. this isnt helping me finish my midterm :grin:

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Re: Psychedelic-using cultures [Re: pH_]
    #4841995 -

I agree. From our vantage, it is hard to imagine waking up tomorrow ina place where you have to forage and hunt for your food, build your own house, and find your own medicine. We'd miss all of the pluses of our culture, but we also may be blind to our own unwholesome ways which are distracting us at a deeper level.
The reason we are designed to sleep about 8 hours a day is that we used to HAVE to be awake for 16 hours in order to provide for the basics of survival. So, some technology is needed in order to have the time and energy to set aside for entheogens. In capitalist culture, we have so much time on our hands because everything is done for us. All we need to do is make money to get what we need. But, the consequence of this is our disconnection. Sure, we have access to all kinds of medicines, but we really don't have any connection to our health itself. We put our problems in a doctors hands after he checks your pulse and bloodpressure. He gets you a bottle of pills, of which you know nothing about, to put in your body, and you hope you get better. But, maybe we wouldn't be so sick if we learned to survive in symbiosis with the rest of the environment and understand that we're not swimming in an endless reservoire of resources. Maybe if we had a connection to our health and our treatment, both physical and spiritual, we would be better off. Maybe if we didn't feel the need to condence everything into pills which we can swallow and forget about, we would be better off.
So, thinking of toiling in the earth all day seems like it would be suffering for us, but maybe we are experiencing a different kind of suffering by being so disconnected.

I was also thinking about something else. Did everyone in aztec society participate in the mushroom rituals, or was it class based (ie. only some have the right to access the divine)? I know nothing about the aztecs. What kind of mushrooms did they eat? I recall ps. aztecorum and ps. caerulescens. Did they have livestock that would have supported the indirect-cultivation of cubensis? If not, it seems hard to believe that they would have been able to collect enough specimens for everyone to enjoy.

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