Home | Community | Message Board


Edabea
Please support our sponsors.

General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Jump to first unread post. Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | Next >  [ show all ]
InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Baby born without a face
    #4597461 - 08/30/05 01:39 AM (12 years, 26 days ago)

Was channel surfing and paused on The Learning Channel tonight and they featured a baby born with no face - a genetic accident, but her brain was apparently intact.

Any other species would have let the poor creature die and I would tend to agree. Are we becoming too politically correct and too compassionate? (In the micro only - seems we have no problem obliterating many thousands of other humans for other reasons, but I digress.)

So I ask you - extreme measures to allow survival with constant care or let nature and evolution take her course?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleMushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
Re: Baby born without a face [Re: Swami]
    #4597485 - 08/30/05 01:44 AM (12 years, 26 days ago)

Why kill a perfectly good circus freak?


--------------------
PsyPost - Psychedelic Research


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
jiggy
Female User Gallery

Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
Re: Baby born without a face [Re: Swami]
    #4597582 - 08/30/05 02:18 AM (12 years, 26 days ago)

What do you mean by "no face". How does it eat drink or breath?

If the baby can do that, you can be sure someone on this planet is willing to care for it. Challenging situations are how we grow and learn what we are made of. We can't just kill off everything that poses a challenge.

Caring for adversities is a part of the evolution of natural adaptation.

Besides, this child doesn't know life any other way. I think sometimes, people don;t consider that many "challenged people" are quite comfortable in their own "different skin". they don';t feel like they have a problem. They feel like people who have a problem with them are the ones with the problem. They teach us all not to judge.

Many handicapped people have accomplished things healthy people are to lazy to dare too. They are an inspiration. So are the ones who help them to become accomplished.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Baby born without a face [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4597624 - 08/30/05 02:37 AM (12 years, 26 days ago)

It had one eye out to the side like a frog and no nose or formed mouth, just a mishapen hole.

I don't know how I would feel if it were mine and I hear what you are saying, but there is a reason that nature culls genetically defective offspring.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
jiggy
Female User Gallery

Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
Re: Baby born without a face [Re: Swami]
    #4597671 - 08/30/05 02:57 AM (12 years, 26 days ago)

I hear what you are saying too.

Sure I'd be distraught thinking nature was being cruel across the board. Non the less, something totally bizarre and wonderful can happen when you hold new life in your arms. It's so helpless and vulnerable either way. Something kicks in and this love overwhelms you and I can't imagine just letting it die.

Really stop and thing about why it would bug you to raise such a child. It would be what other people think. There is no other reason. Maybe one would think they couldn't possible have a descent life.

Apply that story you told us about the Texas dude who shot and killed his son because he thought he was better off dead then being a pot head. Remember what you said about the dangers of thinking our opinion is the superior one. Maybe that kid will grow to have a different opinion and appreciate what quality of life it does have.

This is tough one. How else to we get opportunities to stretch so we can grow.  :shrug:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleMushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
Re: Baby born without a face [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4597835 - 08/30/05 03:52 AM (12 years, 26 days ago)

Its hard for me to imagine that faceless humans life being anything but suffering.


--------------------
PsyPost - Psychedelic Research


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblebwalker
The BodyElectric
Registered: 01/02/05
Posts: 63
Loc: NJ, USA
Re: Baby born without a face [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #4597951 - 08/30/05 04:53 AM (12 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

Why kill a perfectly good circus freak?




Bastard, rum sprayed out the nose burns. :laugh:


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibledr_gonz
Registered: 08/18/03
Posts: 44,645
Re: Baby born without a face [Re: Swami]
    #4598101 - 08/30/05 06:37 AM (12 years, 26 days ago)

pic?


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineOldWoodSpecter
waiting
Male

Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 10 years, 11 months
Re: Baby born without a face [Re: Swami]
    #4598352 - 08/30/05 09:35 AM (12 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
Was channel surfing and paused on The Learning Channel tonight and they featured a baby born with no face - a genetic accident, but her brain was apparently intact.

Any other species would have let the poor creature die and I would tend to agree. Are we becoming too politically correct and too compassionate? (In the micro only - seems we have no problem obliterating many thousands of other humans for other reasons, but I digress.)

So I ask you - extreme measures to allow survival with constant care or let nature and evolution take her course?




A guy was without face in my highschool generation. A huge hole where the face is supose to be, he has one eye and mouth on the "bottom" of that hole, he looks like cartoon characters when a cannon ball hits them on the face. In short his head is missing like 10cm (from profile) where the face is supose to be and the eye and mouth are right in front of the brain. The forehead area is normally long.

He graduated, made a lot of friends, I think he even had a girlfriend. He was no different from the rest of us in terms of how he lived. His peers accepted him normally.

It would really have been a mistake if he was killed at birth.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleEgo Death
Justadropofwaterinanendlesssea
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/27/03
Posts: 10,447
Loc: The War Machine
Re: Baby born without a face [Re: Swami]
    #4598688 - 08/30/05 12:56 PM (12 years, 26 days ago)

Where does one draw the line on culling 'imperfect humans'?

Hitler obviously believed his arian super-race would be genetically superior, does this warrant the murder of all the 'inferior'?

You say let nature take its course, but (provided they can survive) the only thing in nature that would stop a person without a face from living would be ourselves.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblevampirism
Stranger
Male User Gallery

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 8,120
Re: Baby born without a face [Re: Swami]
    #4598762 - 08/30/05 01:38 PM (12 years, 26 days ago)

disturbing...

photo:



Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblevampirism
Stranger
Male User Gallery

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 8,120
Re: Baby born without a face [Re: Ego Death]
    #4598768 - 08/30/05 01:40 PM (12 years, 26 days ago)

Is it wrong to deny horror in yourself?

I am very cautious about making any final statement in such a case, but I cannot deny my body's reaction. This isn't a calculated or cultural prejudice.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineOldWoodSpecter
waiting
Male

Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 10 years, 11 months
Re: Baby born without a face [Re: vampirism]
    #4598833 - 08/30/05 02:05 PM (12 years, 26 days ago)

you can feel horror, but you can not act it out.
People don't end lives because of charity, they end them so that they don't have to look at it and wonder how it would be if they were such a freak. They would just kill that being, so they can feel sercure, and not wonder "what if"


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineRedstorm
Prince of Bugs
Male

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,174
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
Re: Baby born without a face [Re: Swami]
    #4598840 - 08/30/05 02:08 PM (12 years, 26 days ago)

I saw that tv show last night.

My roommate told me to put it on and I told him tha this was probably the only time ever that I would support a post-birth abortion.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineOldWoodSpecter
waiting
Male

Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 10 years, 11 months
Re: Baby born without a face [Re: Redstorm]
    #4598853 - 08/30/05 02:12 PM (12 years, 26 days ago)

For the sake of the child or for the sake of yourself?


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineRedstorm
Prince of Bugs
Male

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,174
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
Re: Baby born without a face [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4598858 - 08/30/05 02:13 PM (12 years, 26 days ago)

The sake of the child. It doesn't bother me whether or not that child lives that way. It will not affect my life one bit.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineOldWoodSpecter
waiting
Male

Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 10 years, 11 months
Re: Baby born without a face [Re: Redstorm]
    #4598969 - 08/30/05 02:52 PM (12 years, 26 days ago)

and how will the death of the child help the child? It can not help the child because there is not child anymore. Only that which exists can be helped


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineVarthDader
Lark Sord ofDith
Registered: 08/21/05
Posts: 37
Loc: Uranus
Last seen: 11 years, 11 months
Re: Baby born without a face [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4599017 - 08/30/05 03:11 PM (12 years, 26 days ago)

I vote for : let the parrents decide...


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
Livin in theTwilight Zone...
 User Gallery

Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 9,946
Loc: You can't spell fungus wi...
Re: Baby born without a face [Re: vampirism]
    #4599022 - 08/30/05 03:15 PM (12 years, 26 days ago)

but I cannot deny my body's reaction.

Indeed, I as well understand that aside from social-cultural-political conditionings and memetics, any real aversion to the deformed and similarly unfortunate is instinctually encoded in our limbic brain. We are naturally attracted to symmetry, and those with symmetrical faces and so on.

I remember once when watching a documentary on this sort of subject on television that Denzel Washington was voted the most handsome male actor, because of his facial symmetry and such. Anyway, the attraction towards those who are more beautiful is instinctually embedded in our brain due to evolution for the same reason that women are innately attracted to men who either have wealth, or tall, muscular bodies, or all of the above. All of these represent the factor of security and protection to the woman - for herself and her children or future children. Likewise, men are attracted to shapely women with attractive features, which innately assure men that their offspring would be endowed with such good genetics, hence increasing the chances of the child's survival and so forth.

As far as ethics and morals go when dealing with people who're born deformed... It can indeed be a tricky situation at times. At this day and age in this first-world society, the rule of "survival of the fittest" isn't quite as strong as it used to be, obviously - at least, not in the old conventional sense. Any quick glance at the percentage of the population in the US alone that is plagued with the epidemic of obesity will dictate this. Has there ever been such an epidemic in history before? Extremely unlikely, since the causes behind the widespread obesity today are related to issues that was non-existent not so long ago.

Anyway, when it comes to the morbidly deformed, such as the kind that Swami spoke of, I can also put aside the feeling generated from the aforementioned instinctual-drive, and think "outside the box", of course. And still, it doesn't get much brighter for the person in question, IMO. The person who is morbidly deformed is bound to spend most of his life in a polite, yet secretly ashamed exile by society. Take a look at what was perhaps the most famous case of deformities in history, The Elephant Man. Do you think this man was happy with himself? It's pretty obvious that this person could tell that he was obviously not genuinely accepted, as his personal freedom was greatly limited by the ridicules of the 'outsiders'. If he stepped foot outside, he'd receive reactions and responses from others ranging from the mild to the extreme and sometimes even the unspeakable. And even when he was in the security of his confines, he would constantly be subject to cold flock of scientists, and we can only imagine how genuinely "close" or "friendly" they were. The Elephant Man was fortunate enough to have at least one individual - if that - that gave him sincere companionship.

Again, the point is that modern society pushing the life of the extremely deformed, for the sake of political correctness and "higher than thou" morals that stem from ignorant shame of our "beastly animal sides", may in fact, be sentencing a human's life to Hell with no chance of parole. Other species would've gone easy on the poor soul and let Death take it back.

And then there are those who fall just short of being the morbidly deformed.
These are the ones that will easily be kept into survival under the safe haven of this particular society's morals and cultural ethics. Yet, they too, have no easy road ahead of them. If they're really unlucky, they'll be forced to go through the hell of public schools loaded with childish evil. Names, taunting, picking, bullying, you name it.
"Oh but my son isn't like that. He's such a good boy - he's always bringing me flowers. A bully? Never!"
Meanwhile that son of yours is ripping the tulips off the deformed child?s mother's lawn after he just shoved him on the sidewalk for "looking at me funny", so he can give them to you, and be showered with blind affection...
An subconscious method of alleviating guilt, cleverly, deviously orchestrated by the little munchkin.

So... my final verdict on the ethical and moral issue of how to deal with these unfortunate people [unfortunate because of the place they're entering, not because of their condition itself].
In this advanced world and society of ours... Where we spend millions of dollars into building prisons, beefing up our uh, anti-missile defense system and shady wars across the planet... I cannot think of a real excuse for us to not establish multiple havens for the severely deformed/disabled across the nation. We've already done this with for the blind and deaf and likewise handicapped.
There have been massive campuses, many acres huge, surrounded by vintage iron fences that look like something out of a renaissance festival, with several dorms and buildings for education and the healthy sustaining of these people's lives, with several playgrounds and so on, for the handicapped folks.
These people get to live in their own society, free [more or less] from the type of shame that the Elephant Man had to endure, thanks to the modern wonders of our society.

But, in retrospect, I suppose the issue of such extreme deformity isn't all too common either, so that would mean only one or perhaps two facilities would need to be established - if that.


The only exception I have to the above suggestion of how to manage the problems of these folks, is those who are deformed in such a way that they are enduring physical [and psychological] pain as a result. In that case, it's obvious that forcing them to live in such a way is a cruelty in itself.

-gunshot-

"But why, daddy? Why!?"

"Shh... You'll understand when you grow older."




--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineMJF
Human Being
 User Gallery

Registered: 06/27/05
Posts: 1,810
Loc: Between 15 and 45 degrees...
Last seen: 8 years, 3 months
Re: Baby born without a face [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #4599154 - 08/30/05 03:52 PM (12 years, 26 days ago)

let it grow untill it can decide whether or not it wants to live or die. and allow them the freedom to carry out that decision.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Jump to top. Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | Next >  [ show all ]

General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Mercy Killing of Disabled Babies?
( 1 2 3 all )
DiploidM 4,749 57 11/07/06 02:28 PM
by Ravus
* Does a baby fear being born?
( 1 2 all )
dr0mni 1,986 33 11/26/05 12:37 AM
by dr0mni
* The many faces of God.
( 1 2 all )
Icelander 1,981 30 01/28/08 11:56 PM
by prankster
* Facing your fears? What if fear afraid of facing me? cleaner 659 11 09/28/04 01:37 PM
by Moonshoe
* Natural Born Killers : Beyond Good and Evil Adamist 5,257 2 07/04/05 06:30 PM
by JB201
* How many Holy men are born to virgins througout history?
( 1 2 3 all )
MAGnum 3,386 46 02/26/05 06:06 PM
by JacquesCousteau
* My views on women and babies - Warning you may hate me if u read lol
( 1 2 3 4 all )
Ego Death 3,150 68 12/01/05 01:19 PM
by basdathea
* morbidity Mystical_Craven 479 2 09/05/03 06:24 PM
by fireworks_god

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, CosmicJoke, Jokeshopbeard, DividedQuantum
3,992 topic views. 0 members, 8 guests and 11 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Toggle Favorite | Print Topic | Stats ]
Search this thread:
Zamnesia.com
Please support our sponsors.

Copyright 1997-2017 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.037 seconds spending 0.004 seconds on 18 queries.