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OfflineDiarYofaMadmaN
BeaverAndButtcoat
Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 141
Last seen: 19 years, 10 months
Born agian Christains.....
    #1472825 - 04/19/03 09:36 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

I recently had a good friend of mine turn Born again Christian. There is nothing wrong with it and I'm not knocking it.... He won't talk to me now because he's telling me that I'm a bad influence and going to hell because I explore my mind with shrooms and smoke Marijuana once in a while. The only time he'll talk to me is if I want to talk about something or god. Then if I say something that he doesn't like or something that goes against the bible he just stops talking to me. I tell him I don't use them to get 'fucked up' I use it to explore my abilities and explore my mind and music. AHHH I hate that term 'fucked up' a drug isn't worth taking if your going to use it to get fucked up on. Any ways, he starts reading scriptures to me and stuff and telling me that just believing in god isn't enough you have to follow Jesus's ways and stuff like that. Basically he's saying you have to follow the bible word for word or I'm going to hell in plain English. He's also telling me that you wont know what love and happiness is un till you actually truly believe in god and Jesus's ways. He's like 'trust me man, I shake every time I pray and I feel the lord's presents, and the shaking is the evil leaving my body.' Does he have a bad case of hysteria(not sure if that's the right word or not. I mean something that you believe in so much you think it's actually happening.)

I do believe in god because there's no way to actually know what created the universe, planets, and life itself. Some people think it's just an excuse just to have an answer to how all this started. Either that or my parents raising me to believe in god. I really don't know what to think about this subject because he totally change from his old self to something completely different.

What do you guys feel about my friend and how all this god stuff started?

EDIT: A strong belief to me is what you feel deep down inside, there is nothing more powerful then that.... Not someone telling you this is how it is because someone told them how it is.

Edited by DiarYofaMadmaN (04/19/03 09:43 AM)

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OfflineJssMthrFcknChrst
Son of the LordGod Almighty

Registered: 10/12/02
Posts: 446
Loc: Vatican City
Last seen: 19 years, 7 months
Re: Born agian Christains..... [Re: DiarYofaMadmaN]
    #1473030 - 04/19/03 11:24 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Does he have a bad case of hysteria(not sure if that's the right word or not. I mean something that you believe in so much you think it's actually happening.)



I believe the word you are looking for is delusional. :smile:

I would suggest that you make your friend comfortable with your difference of religious beliefs. Discussing what you believe and being open to listen to what he believes can bring you closer together, and may be enlightening for both of you. When he tells you that something is specifically prohibited in the Bible, ask for references and discuss his findings. Here are a few verses to share with him, about various topics, just to get discussion going.

Tolerance
--
Matthew 5:43-44 (NIV)
43 "You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.'
44 But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you

Galatians 5:14 (NIV)
14 The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."
--

Friendship
--
Job 6:14 (NIV)
14 "A despairing man should have the devotion of his friends, even though he forsakes the fear of the Almighty.

Job 17:5 (NIV)
5 If a man denounces his friends for reward, the eyes of his children will fail.

Job 42:7&10 (NIV)
7 After the LORD had said these things to Job, he said to Eliphaz the Temanite, "I am angry with you and your two friends, because you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has.
10 After Job had prayed for his friends, the LORD made him prosperous again and gave him twice as much as he had before.

John 15:13 (NIV)
13 Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.
--

Defining Evil
--
Matthew 15:11 (NIV)
11 What goes into a man's mouth does not make him 'unclean,' but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him 'unclean.' "

Colossians 2:16 (NIV)
16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.

Matthew 7:1-5 (NIV)
1 "Do not judge, or you too will be judged.
2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
3 "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?
4 How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye?
5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.
--

Depending on how close you are to your friend, and how fanatical he is or becomes, it may be best for both of you to part ways. If your friend is unable to cope with your differences in religious beliefs, then he will not be your friend for long, either you will break it off or he will. If he strongly feels that you are a bad influence, then you are endangering yourself by associating with him. When his actions result in harsh consequences, who do you think he would point the finger at? Even if he feels that he is only helping you by turning on you, he may be a 'security risk' that you may not want around.

Keep in mind that what and how your friend chooses to believe is a personal decision, and at the risk of stressing your relationship, you should avoid specific 'attacks' on his beliefs. I don't mean to suggest that you are attempting to change his beliefs, its just that highly religious people tend to be highly defensive about their religious ideology. Each person reacts differently to criticism or inquisitive discussion of their faith, you need to judge his reactions to your inquiries, and develop a strategy for working out your communication difficulties tailored to the specifics of your situation, that will allow you to discuss these emotional issues without appearing to 'attack' each other.

Feel free to PM or ask me for more Biblical references, I enjoy quoting the Bible. :smile:

Jssmthrfcknchrst



--------------------


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Anonymous

Re: Born agian Christains..... [Re: DiarYofaMadmaN]
    #1473048 - 04/19/03 11:31 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

i am going to try really hard to make myself believe in god, and see if i receive these same pleasure feelings. if i get them, with god full-knowing that i believe the bible is a crock of shit, then it will answer some questions.

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Anonymous

Re: Born agian Christains..... [Re: ]
    #1473090 - 04/19/03 11:53 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

what?

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Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: Born agian Christains..... [Re: DiarYofaMadmaN]
    #1473096 - 04/19/03 11:55 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

I try to avoid Bible-thumpers at all costs. I can't stand the way they shove their religion down your throat.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Anonymous

Re: Born agian Christains..... [Re: ]
    #1473103 - 04/19/03 11:58 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

i am going to make myself believe i believe in god.

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OfflineDiarYofaMadmaN
BeaverAndButtcoat
Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 141
Last seen: 19 years, 10 months
Re: Born agian Christains..... [Re: JssMthrFcknChrst]
    #1473113 - 04/19/03 12:03 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Thx JssMthrFcknChrst you helped out a lot i'll take what you said and use it when him and i decide to actually talk. But i think it's best that my friend and i just stop talking for a bit. It's just stupid how something like this tears family or friends apart. I accept anyones beliefs on this and other subjects.

The only true answer lies when we finally pass on.

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Anonymous

Re: Born agian Christains..... [Re: ]
    #1473212 - 04/19/03 12:47 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

sounds like a plan  :smirk:

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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
happy mutant
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Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
Re: Born agian Christains..... [Re: DiarYofaMadmaN]
    #1473315 - 04/19/03 01:39 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Fact is, you'll probably never really know "why" your friend went to this fanatic extreme. Work on accepting that he did, and move on.... In my experience, there's little a man like this can do for you, and there's virtually nothing you can do for him but live as an example of greatness. Continue to "explore your mind", and if one day you're an accomplished musician, while he has a slew of kids, a dead end job, and is president of the Church recreation board, well...... maybe after his midlife crisis he'll really be ready "Start Again".
I'd be cordial to him when I ran into him, but wouldn't get involved - just "follow your bliss", if you will. Sucks when things like these happen, but it's better to just try and accept, in my experience.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.

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Offlinesoylent_green
The greatEnitsuj
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Registered: 12/11/02
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Loc: Ontario
Last seen: 17 years, 1 month
Re: Born agian Christains..... [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #1473380 - 04/19/03 02:14 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

mabey your friend is just on some kind of 'god power trip' and wants to do everything right ect...
mabey they'll calm down in a while,
but if it dose continue...and they can't see that just because you believe different thigns, dosen't mean you can't be friends...then i'd say screw him


--------------------
What fun is it in Nirvana while other beings are suffering?

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Offlinegnrm23
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 08/29/99
Posts: 6,488
Loc: n. e. OH, USSA
Last seen: 6 months, 5 days
Re: Born agian Christains..... [Re: DiarYofaMadmaN]
    #1473447 - 04/19/03 02:46 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

read some alan watts or john spong or mike young for innoculation against thumperism...
or some robert anton wilson :wink: ...


--------------------
old enough to know better
not old enough to care

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OfflineMurex
Reality Hacker

Registered: 07/28/02
Posts: 3,599
Loc: Traped in a shell.
Last seen: 16 years, 7 months
Re: Born agian Christains..... [Re: DiarYofaMadmaN]
    #1473498 - 04/19/03 03:00 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

That guy just wants to feel superior. He's just a brainwashed goof. If he can't understand and accept your beliefs, then I wouldn't tolerate him anymore.


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?


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Offlinemr freedom
enthusiast
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 232
Last seen: 18 years, 11 months
Re: Born agian Christains..... [Re: DiarYofaMadmaN]
    #1476706 - 04/20/03 03:09 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Well, I feel for you. Losing a friend to the irrational belief in the "invisible man" has got to be tough. Next time he wants to save your soul try this arguement:

There are some people that believe, God is or could be, Love. If this is so then God's relationship with human beings is that of an ALL ENCOMPASSING love. As such those who have FAITH that God exists, that they love God and God loves them must question their relationship with God. In considering the realationship (with God) the person in question must ask ones self "is this a positive relationship; is this relationship harmful to me?".
The nature of RELIGION assures us that this is wrong, one must not question the relationship with God, one must have faith that God, and as an extension, his dogma, is infallable. To this end, religion, while purporting to be heralding the LOVE of GOD, brings about HATE. Hate of other religions, those who don't believe as "THEY" do and those who do not live as the particular dogma dictates. You have to look no further than your local law library to see how religion encompasses the very opposite of what God is purported to be. Religion's don't exist in love, they exist in HATE and conflict. Religion's, the world over, dictate the way a peson should live in obeisance of a certain God. There is no room for compromise, not when you are talking about religion; it's live "our" (whoever happens to be in power at the time) way or die.
This brings me to the next argument; RELIGION vs. GOD.
Invariably, when one discusses God or religion, the same arguments present themselves ad nauseum. One being, that God exists, the other being that god aka "the invisible man" does not exist. The second argument that surrounds the God vs. religion debate is which religion is praying to the RIGHT God? And, third, but MOST IMPORTANT, is the INDIVIDUAL relationship with God.

The mere act of believing or not is simplistic in nature but complex in makeing the decision to believe in God or not. Does God exist? Can I find any evidence of this being? Does the lack of evidence of existance, in itself, lend to the supposition that God does NOT exist? Or, does the lack of evidence of exitance lend itself to the supposition that God DOES exist? I can't answer this, not for anyone else anyway, the answer that FAITH is the answer is ludicrous. I have FAITH that the sun will rise tommorow, my faith is based on experience and science. but I am rational enough to know that a nuclear attack will make it irrelevant. Those who believe in God have no choice but to base their belief in experience, science cannot help them here. Those who do not believe in God have no choice but to base their belief in experience; science can't help them either. "My mother died; it was God's will" "My mother died; her heart stopped".

I'll skip the second argument; which religion is worshipping the correct God. It doesn't lend itself to this particular question of "Love vs. Hate and Religion vs. God". Besides, it would take me a couple of months to properly encompass that particular argument. I do, however , wish to address my arguments to the third proposition; "the individual's relationship with God".

It is this personal relationship with God that brings us to the lack of understanding between those that don't worship a God vs. those that do worship a God. What rational, faith, can exist in the worship of a being that cannot be counted on to engage us in a rational manner nor to engage us in a loving manner? Consider this, my child dies, it hurts, I ask God why, he dosen't answer. My friends and pastor tell me that it is God's will, that he, indeed, has a plan and my loss and pain is part of that plan. They go on to tell me that God still loves me, even though he allowed my most precious of possesions to die; my child, a part of me. They tell me that God may be testing my faith, that I should still continue to trust in God and to continue to have FAITH in his plan for me. Now, if I told a woman , in an abusive relationship, that her husband still loved her, that he had a plan, that he was beating the hell out of her and causing her pain just to test her love for him most of you would call me an idiot; and rightly so. The nature of RELIGION is that it trys to REMOVE the rational mind from the human being and force that person to continue in a very unpleasant and destructive relationship.

The nature of religion is that it holds God to standards we, as rational beings, would LOUDLY and FORCFULLY REJECT. Who, by a show of hands, would allow that some entity, perporting to love us would cause us pain and then have the unmitigated gall to tell us that we should just keep haveing FAITH?
Why should those that have FAITH, NOT, question their relationship with God? Will he get mad? Will he kill us? There is ONE thing and, one thing only, that religious FAITH has that no other rational relationship can ever give us; a means to live forever in happiness. It is this so-called promise that allows religion's to twist and corrupt the experience of believing in ANY GOD into just a way to control others.

Religion is not an acceptable, rational, positive relationship. Religion, extreme or otherwise, is a simple matter of using the spiritual nature of man to excise the rational, MORAL, nature of man. Speaking in VERY general terms, christians loath voodoo and witchcraft. They (christians) do their best to debunk other religious practices as evil, wrong, devil inspired (why do we need a devil?) or UNENLIGHTENED. Other religions use their dogma to control women; to keep them in their place or to use them as the scape goat of everything that goes wrong. Other religions use their religious dogma to control the lives of their parishioners or their clergy.

I debunk ALL religions as UNENLIGHTENED, I make no distinctions between any religion in this manner. All religions seek to CONTROL rational beings by the threat of everlasting terror and pain, religions use the "promise" of life everlasting to try to tear the rational mind from the human being. I have no beef with God, as such, I simply believe, and history proves me out, that religion is the baliwick of man and has little or nothing to do with a personal relationship with the God or Goddess that many would happily believe in, if not for the fear that they would involve themselves with some irrational religious doctorine.

I cannot prove that God exists and I cannot prove that God does not exist. But, I CAN prove, or at least bring into serious question, that God ever existed in a religious sense. Consider: the christian religion, old testament, God was a ferocious, vengeful God, he allowed NO sin to go unpunished (just ask the jews); then, from on "high" there was born a son of God and God allowed his son to be tortured and killed so that people might have a method of forgivness, so that even the most vile of sinners may have access to the "everlasting life in heaven". Is it only me that sees this as an underlying control mechanism; as a way to increase the pool of believers? Am I the only one that sees that RELIGION, at this period of world history, needed to purport some type of forgivness mechanism to continue to get people to worship a God, long since, considered,at the least, to be harsh and unforgiving?

The nature of man suggests that we are born moral beings, with the ability to think and act in a rational manner. We are capable of abstract thought, thus, leading us to also be spirtual beings. To consider the "WHY" "WHERE" and "HOW" of our existance. To ask these questions leads us to try to find a rational answer to them. The belief of a supreme being is not inherently irrational, but to build religion around this belief, especially the religions that man has built, IS IRRATIONAL.

It is only with religious fervor and hatred that a plant was made illegal, it is only with the hatred of religious dogma that women are treated as second class citizens. The mere fact that women are not, mostly, treated that way in western society's is that our society insisted on a more ENLIGHTEND treatment of women; in direct opposition to religious dogma. It is only with religous hatred that same sex lover's are treated as less than human. We, those on the cannabis boards, constantly look for enlightenment from our politicians, in the hope that one day we can all sit down at the same lake side and smoke the biggest, fattest, dooby every rolled, without fear of being Joe Bob's sexual plaything. I think that this will never happen and the reason is in our faces evey day; RELIGION. Only when religion is made to take a backseat to the needs of the individual. Only when religion becomes ENLIGHTEND enough to accept God as a loving being and not as the means to control others will we be free from the religious tyranny that has taken over the world. When a law is no longer based on "protecting me from me" and is NOT based in some religious dogma will we, those without FAITH, be able to seriously consider the question of God. Until that time, we look to other areas of our spirituality and hope that is enough, because the alternative is linked to religous dogma and religous dogma is, invariably, linked to hatred.

I make no apologies for being a rational being. I am also a spiritual being. I believe that a rational being CAN believe in a God, it is in our nature to seek out the spirituality of our being and to manifest it in some way. There is NO rational being that can believe in ANY religious dogma that seeks to control a persons actions. This is contrary to our nature, our intellect and to our constitutionaly protected rights (you knew I would get the constitution in there didn't you?). God may be around somewhere, but I doubt that you will find him in any unenlightend religious text. I can find my spirit in the simple act of fishing. It is one of my most favorite things to do. Not sport fishing, just baiting a hook in a shady piece of water, somewhere far enough from others that what I am smoking won't be a concern and far enough away from thirsty individuals; I don't think they would want to drink my particular brand of "tea".


Mr. U.S. Freedom "He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself." -- Thomas Paine



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Offlinevalour
Swordbearer

Registered: 03/02/02
Posts: 1,453
Loc: USA
Last seen: 18 years, 3 months
Re: Born agian Christains..... [Re: JssMthrFcknChrst]
    #1476788 - 04/20/03 03:44 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

To go along with this, there are Christians who humbly practice their belief and don't judge others (well, beyond standard human tendency to judge), and even recognize that their worldview is but a slice, a possibility in the midst of a myriad of possibilities. Just because people have been offended, hurt or whatever by Christians doesn't make it sound to throw out all association with them, or religion in general.

Anti-christians would be good to realize this.


--------------------
"Remember, son,
I didn't sell out-
I bought in."

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OfflineDiarYofaMadmaN
BeaverAndButtcoat
Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 141
Last seen: 19 years, 10 months
Re: Born agian Christains..... [Re: valour]
    #1477093 - 04/20/03 05:57 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Wow mr freedom i read all of what you wrote.  You bring really good points across in that book you wrote heheh.  Thx :laugh:

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OfflineBob_J
Spaced outRabbit

Registered: 12/30/01
Posts: 246
Loc: alberta canada
Last seen: 9 years, 8 months
Re: Born agian Christains..... [Re: DiarYofaMadmaN]
    #1481175 - 04/22/03 12:58 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

i had the same thing happen to me.  a good friend of mine became a bible thumper.  he thinks im going to hell and will end up hooked on heroin or something living on the streets. i eat shrooms maybe 5 times a year and smoke the occassional joint/weed brownie every few weeks if that.  i have no interest in heroin or "hard drugs" if you will.  they just arent "fun" like shrooms or weed.
i no longer talk to him..he would recite jesus shit over the phone  :mad: like straight from the bible he was reading.  i went to a catholic school for 9 years...i tell you its brainwashing. last year he went on a "mission" to austrailia for 6 months or something.  anyways thats my story.


--------------------

"With insomnia your never really asleep, and your never really awake"

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
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Re: Born agian Christains..... [Re: mr freedom]
    #1481611 - 04/22/03 05:48 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Your blanket statements about 'religions' are so general, so uncritical, and so lacking in any depth of understanding, that this post is hardly worth responding to except to say that you are comparing 'apples to oranges.' You are confusing politics and outward behavior, as governed by a political entity with a crude notion that GOD is a dictator who empowers religions to oppress human beings. Religions have frequently fallen into the hands of corrupt humans, but that is hardly what is behind human beings as Homo Religiosus. Life IN GOD is complete freedom - it is what defines Ultimate Freedom, not your own ability to live out petty desires. Rather than becoming quiet enough inside to learn, you impose your own veneration of the faculty of rationality upon Transcendental Reality which is Trans-rational. Transrational! Hello!


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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InvisibleLeft Nut City
Stranger
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Registered: 03/27/01
Posts: 2,360
Re: Born agian Christains..... [Re: DiarYofaMadmaN]
    #1481620 - 04/22/03 06:00 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

"Atheism - The Case Against God" by George H. Smith.

Once you read it, there's NO WAY you can believe in God ever again.

Worked for me!!!!

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Born agian Christains..... [Re: DiarYofaMadmaN]
    #1481624 - 04/22/03 06:02 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Your friend typifies what philosopher-psychologist William James said about certain born-again types (he said it in the 19th century!). James said, 'the best cure for dipsomania [alcoholism] is religiomania.' ALL Christians are born again (James also talks about the once and twice born), but your friend does not embody a mature Christian understanding. He is taking Scriptures in a very concrete and literal way, probably because he is developmentally still in Concrete Operational thinking himself. The highly abstract intellectual and spiritual understanding of Jesus the Christ as "The Way," [i.e., the Way to Be, as THE model for complete human development] is only seen in its Scriptural language, which is mytho-poetic. This does not mean that it is not true, it means that the historical aspects about Jesus are few, and the depiction of Him in Scripture is highly mythologized in the style of ancient Jewish writing, called 'midrash.' If we try to read Scriptures with 21st century eyes, that expect scientific and journalistic literalness, we will NEVER understand what the ancients were intending by their highly stylized writings. For sure and for certain, your friend has absolutely no clue about how the writings were intended - only what his little church intends - which is just as lacking. The Bible has Jesus say 'He who is not against us, is with us,' (chapter and verse escapes me) which is a very liberal view. Only Matthew goes on about hellfire, and that because of his own political agenda to the Jewish believers. Don't argue with him, be patient, and perhaps read the Good Book yourself if you want to debate with him. It is a very deep and Holy document if one knows how to read it properly. Peace.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Offlinemr freedom
enthusiast
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 232
Last seen: 18 years, 11 months
Re: Born agian Christains..... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1482037 - 04/22/03 10:30 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

I read your post three times and I have no damn idea what the hell you said. Could you put up a definition of "transrational" I can't seem to find it in ANY document.

I state facts that are not in dispute. Religion seeks to strip the RATIONAL mind from the human being. Religion's twist ANY spiritual belief into method(s) of controling humans.

While these are factual statments I really don't wish to argue them in this post.
This post is about someone losing a friend to the vaunted RELIGION.
It is only my intention to give this person some way to counter act the "brain washing" that is being done to his friend.
Should he be succesful his friend willl be able to CRITICALY JUDGE his RELATIONSHIP with "the invisible man" WITHOUT succuming to the lies perpetuated by RELIGION.

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OfflineJssMthrFcknChrst
Son of the LordGod Almighty

Registered: 10/12/02
Posts: 446
Loc: Vatican City
Last seen: 19 years, 7 months
Re: Born agian Christains..... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1482729 - 04/22/03 02:31 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Here you go:
--
Mark 9:38-41 (NIV)
38 "Teacher," said John, "we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us."
39 "Do not stop him," Jesus said. "No one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me,
40 for whoever is not against us is for us.
41 I tell you the truth, anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name because you belong to Christ will certainly not lose his reward.
--


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
Elder
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Re: Born agian Christains..... [Re: JssMthrFcknChrst]
    #1482845 - 04/22/03 03:00 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Thanks for the backup!!


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
Elder
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Re: Born agian Christains..... [Re: mr freedom]
    #1483058 - 04/22/03 03:55 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

You do not state facts, you state opinions based upon faulty and incomplete understanding of the phenomenon. One must take the entire historical time line in order to see the origination of a movement, as well as its corruption (inquisitions, crusades, etc.) in order to understand the original and true value which is still there, howsoever covered in dross.

You might consider reading something by John Shelby Spong, former Episcopal Archbishop of Newark, New Jersey, who has written a number of beautifully lucid and readable books that tie rational thought to non-rational faith. I recommend 'Liberating the Gospel: Reading the Bible With Jewish Eyes.'

As to "transrational," Ken Wilber's books use the term repeatedly, as do other transpersonal theorists. The prefix -trans, indicates 'going beyond,' and the transrational refers to a higher logic that derives from higher functions of consciousness than the subject-object dichotomy upon which thr rational function is based. A transcending of opposites - a transcendental state of awareness is an 'order' of being from which human actions can still derive. One example of the comparison is the moral precept: 'an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth.' This is based on a kind of 'moral logic' or judgement or evaluation based on sensory perception for the most part. Fair is fair.

The higher or transrational 'logic' - 'Love thine enemies,' is not based upon anything rational, and does not make sense from a rational perspective. It DOES make sense however, from a transcendental perception that all human beings derive their moment-to-moment existence from the same Being - the perception that we are all ONE in Reality, not the separate beings that we appear to the senses and rational mind. From the latter perspective, hurting another being is synonymous to hurting oneself. It is not easy to be-in-the-world with the latter perspective. Few, if any 'individuals' reflect this perception back.

De-programming requires knowledge of the process, and must ethically be done with the subject's consent. It must also be done by one whose motive is Compassion, and whose Compassion is grounded in the Transcendental - not in one's ego-game.

Whatever else religion may be defined as, at bottom, it refers to an acknowledgement of an Ultimate Reality - the Really Real. Denial of Reality is definitionally mental illness. You may not care for how a specific religion conveys its particular way to contact the Real, but disagreement with specific verbal formulations does not mean that those formulations are lies. When Jesus is alledged to have said 'I am the vine, you are the branches,' only a moron would think that the Man was calling himself a plant. It is easy to dismiss all that one does not understand, or attempt to understand. Spiritual Truths, deriving from Holy traditions [i.e., religions] have given me new life and passion for Compassion and Wisdom. They guide me at every turn and lend harmony, meaning and deep abiding peace to my existence. When misunderstood and abused, even benevolent things can assume destructiveness, but that does not make religion inherently evil, and it is incredibly short-sighted to say that.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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OfflineZahid
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Re: Born agian Christains..... [Re: mr freedom]
    #1484027 - 04/22/03 08:16 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

I state facts that are not in dispute.

What a self-righteous position you've put yourself in. What exactly makes your beliefs a 'fact' that cannot be disputed with?

Religion seeks to strip the RATIONAL mind from the human being. Religion's twist ANY spiritual belief into method(s) of controling humans.

Are you implying religion has the self awareness needed to carry out such malicious acts of 'mass control'?


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Offlinemr freedom
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Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 232
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Re: Born agian Christains..... [Re: Zahid]
    #1484569 - 04/22/03 10:40 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Don't change the subject. The subject of this post is about losing a friend because of that friends lack of sound reasoning skills. I posted a rational argument that can be used to bring about a RATIONAL look at, said friend's, new found religious experience.

If you wish to debate my "facts" then we'll have to do it in some other thread.
My RATIONAL responses do not make me self-righteous; they make me correct in my analysis.

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OfflineZahid
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Registered: 01/21/02
Posts: 4,779
Last seen: 19 years, 6 months
Re: Born agian Christains..... [Re: mr freedom]
    #1484632 - 04/22/03 11:03 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Changing the subject? You're the one who started ranting about religion (I thought this was about someone's extremist friend).

Now, can you please answer my questions?


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Edited by Zahid (04/22/03 11:05 PM)

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Offlinevalour
Swordbearer

Registered: 03/02/02
Posts: 1,453
Loc: USA
Last seen: 18 years, 3 months
Re: Born agian Christains..... [Re: Left Nut City]
    #1484681 - 04/22/03 11:19 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Read it - some worthwhile stuff to think about therein - but I' still believe in a Deity.
Ah well.


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"Remember, son,
I didn't sell out-
I bought in."

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OfflineCeeEssGee
Canadian-American

Registered: 09/29/02
Posts: 1,894
Loc: Toronto, Ontario
Last seen: 17 years, 1 month
Re: Born agian Christains..... [Re: DiarYofaMadmaN]
    #1484711 - 04/22/03 11:27 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

He's not a very good christian if he refuses to talk to you. Christians are supposed to try to spread christianity, not just keep it to themselves, and refuse to associate with people who aren't christian. It's how people become "born again christians" after all, for the most part..


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Why, sirrah, why may a caudled fillhorse be deemed the brother to a hiren candle in the night? Withal, because a candle may be greased, yet a fillhorse be without a fat argier!

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Offlinevalour
Swordbearer

Registered: 03/02/02
Posts: 1,453
Loc: USA
Last seen: 18 years, 3 months
Re: Born agian Christains..... [Re: CeeEssGee]
    #1484763 - 04/22/03 11:39 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

True - often, those who undergo conversions hold onto bit pieces of their experience - such as 'removing yourself from the world' and consider it the whole picture.

Your friend may come back into your orbit someday, but til then, he's either out of your range or a rough ride for trying to remain his friend.


--------------------
"Remember, son,
I didn't sell out-
I bought in."

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