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JCoke
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Re: How many Holy men are born to virgins througout history? [Re: Silversoul]
#3825528 - 02/23/05 11:22 PM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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Right, but if anything is possible, that means anything--not just what one side claims.
by God, yes.
Do you believe it's possible that someone else fucked her? Or are you willing to retract your statement that anything is possible?
by God, yes.
you don't understand because your only looking at the second part of what I said, taking it out of context...
"there's not much i don't believe in, everythings possible to me."
I believe no man fucked her, I don't believe in something i don't believe, but I do believe in something I do believe.
I believe everything is possible through God.
-------------------- hello, your name is life on earth ------------------------------------ "I traveled a long way seeking God, but when I finally gave up and turned back, there He was, within me! O Lalli! Now why do you wander like a beggar? Make some effort, and He will grant you a vision of Himself in the form of bliss in your heart." -the saint of the Kashmir Shaivism tradition: Lalli.
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niteowl
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Re: How many Holy men are born to virgins througout history? [Re: JCoke]
#3825635 - 02/23/05 11:48 PM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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I think that these "virgin birth" stories are just that...STORIES....dreamed up to make ignorant people believe in them, so they could be controlled.
All these "virgin birth" stories are OLD AS DIRT. No one could tell this kind of "story" today and be believed.
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JacquesCousteau
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Re: How many Holy men are born to virgins througout history? [Re: JCoke]
#3826497 - 02/24/05 08:13 AM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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J... listen, please... I'm really not trying to offend you or offend your religious beliefs in ANY WAY. I'm just trying to help you realize that you're contradicting yourself.
When you say you believe that anything is possible, you are sending out the message that you are willing to consider ALL OPTIONS.
This is directly contradictory to the idea that something HAD to have happened a CERTAIN way, because then you are not considering all options any longer.
I will even give you the benefit of your later statement: "Anything is possible through God."
Well, sir, GOD works in very mysterious ways. I'm sure you've heard that one before.
How about: All things work together for the greater good for those who are in Christ Jesus?
How do you know that God's will was not executed by way of a secret affair that Mary had? Again, man, ALL THINGS work together for the greater good. That means that NEGATIVES ARE NECESSARY.
Look, my point is: Even if you don't morally agree with something happening a certain way to bring about a turn of events, that's not logical reason to deny the possibility.
Again: PLEASE don't take this as a personal attack in any way. It's REALLY not. I just want you to really mean it when you say "I believe anything is possible by the will of God."
And therefore, in turn, I hope you can realize that it's POSSIBLE (this does NOT mean it definitely happened this way.. it means it COULD have happened this way) that Mary was having an affair and covered it up.
God works in mysterious ways, remember? If you're okay with God's Will being Jesus brutally murdered to benefit humanity by providing a "savior"; Then why couldn't God's will have also been that Mary have an affair, to benefit humanity by providing a "savior"?
Just consider it...
Edited by JacquesCousteau (02/24/05 08:20 AM)
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CJay
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Re: How many Holy men are born to virgins througout history? [Re: JCoke]
#3826790 - 02/24/05 10:05 AM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
I don't believe in something i don't believe, but I do believe in something I do believe.
So you believe anything is possible - as long as it is anything you believe?
Quote:
everythings possible to me.
hmmm - what about the other possibilities then?
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phi1618
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Re: How many Holy men are born to virgins througout history? [Re: JCoke]
#3826898 - 02/24/05 10:32 AM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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I'm pretty sure what JCoke's saying is that the fact that virgin births don't normally occur is no argument against Jesus being born of a virgin mother, because God can do anything. This is a consistent, if bizzare, position.
I don't think any person has ever been born without genetic input from a man. I don't think people are born with special connections to the divine.
In any case, in reference to the initial legends sited by MAGnum:
Horus was the son of Isis and Osiris. Although he was concieved after the death of Osiris at the hands of Set, Isis gathered Osiris's remains and used them to concieve Horus. Necrophilia aside, Isis probably wasn't a virgin in that she had been married to Osiris for a long time before his death.
I don't know who Mythos is.
Buddha was born to Queen Maya and King Suddhodana in Northern India or Nepal. I've never heard it suggested that Queen Maya was a virgin or that her marriage to King Suddhodana was unconsumated, or that Buddha was not the natural son of Suddohana.
Krishna was the eigth child of Vasudeva and King Kamsa.
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JCoke
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Re: How many Holy men are born to virgins througout history? [Re: phi1618]
#3827945 - 02/24/05 02:45 PM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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sure, what i'm saying is i believe it was a virgin birth.
I BELIEVE it was a virgin birth.
but i also beleive anything is possible through God, so yes i beleive it possible to not have been a vigin birth, but i don't believe that.
like i said, I don't believe in something i don't believe in, but I do believe in something I do believe in.
cjay, it's more like i believe in what i heard, i believe in what i know, but i also believe there are things i don't know, leaving the possiblity for a non-virgin birth wide open.
and don't worry i'm not offended in anyway from anything anyone has said.
-------------------- hello, your name is life on earth ------------------------------------ "I traveled a long way seeking God, but when I finally gave up and turned back, there He was, within me! O Lalli! Now why do you wander like a beggar? Make some effort, and He will grant you a vision of Himself in the form of bliss in your heart." -the saint of the Kashmir Shaivism tradition: Lalli.
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JCoke
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Re: How many Holy men are born to virgins througout history? [Re: phi1618]
#3827957 - 02/24/05 02:49 PM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
phi1618 said: I'm pretty sure what JCoke's saying is that the fact that virgin births don't normally occur is no argument against Jesus being born of a virgin mother, because God can do anything. This is a consistent, if bizzare, position.
pretty much, I mean, if you believe in God that created everything and can create anything, is all powerful, can create a women from the rib of a man, can fit a camel through the eye of a neetle, why would it be hard to believe a virgin birth?
-------------------- hello, your name is life on earth ------------------------------------ "I traveled a long way seeking God, but when I finally gave up and turned back, there He was, within me! O Lalli! Now why do you wander like a beggar? Make some effort, and He will grant you a vision of Himself in the form of bliss in your heart." -the saint of the Kashmir Shaivism tradition: Lalli.
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MAGnum
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Re: How many Holy men are born to virgins througout history? [Re: phi1618]
#3828767 - 02/24/05 05:45 PM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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Perhaps the ducument was wrong. It read several people who were born of virgins in mythology. It is a possibility that the document was based on untruth.
-------------------- Agent 727 7
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JacquesCousteau
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Re: How many Holy men are born to virgins througout history? [Re: JCoke]
#3832043 - 02/25/05 07:54 AM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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"but i also beleive anything is possible through God, so yes i beleive it possible to not have been a vigin birth, but i don't believe that."
Sigh... That's my cue... *exits stage left*
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phi1618
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Re: How many Holy men are born to virgins througout history? [Re: MAGnum]
#3832054 - 02/25/05 08:00 AM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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Maybe it just presented one side of the story. For example, it's likely that there is some Christian influenced Buddhist sect that believes in a virgin birth.
If the document's online, post a link.
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Lizard_King
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Re: How many Holy men are born to virgins througout history? [Re: phi1618]
#3832092 - 02/25/05 08:12 AM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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What if Joseph was a little quick on the trigger, and Mary got knocked up without losing her virginity?
What if God worked through Joseph to ensure a virgin birth?
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phi1618
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Re: How many Holy men are born to virgins througout history? [Re: Lizard_King]
#3832105 - 02/25/05 08:15 AM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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It could be like this case I read about recently, where a woman sucked a guy off and used the sperm to inseminate herself. Sued for child support and won - $800/month.
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gnrm23
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Re: How many Holy men are born to virgins througout history? [Re: phi1618]
#3832370 - 02/25/05 10:08 AM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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"Mythos" ? maybe "Mithras" or "Mithra" (mithraism was a popular mystery cult among roman soldiers)
-------------------- old enough to know better not old enough to care
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tomas
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Re: How many Holy men are born to virgins througout history? [Re: MAGnum]
#3833806 - 02/25/05 04:35 PM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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The motif of the virgin birth is very common. Just like the flood, the rebith of the hero, the tree of life and knowledge, etc. I think it's a mistake to take those stories as facts. You should read some of the Joseph Campbell works on myths and compared religion. Or download some videos (I recommend "Sukhavati: Place of Bliss").
As Robert Anton Wilson said, when you believe you refuse to think, belief is the end of thought. I think it's more healthy to be skeptic. For example, it allows you to think of those stories as myths, and understand that they may have a common ground in the human psyche. Myths are popular dreams (just as dreams are personal myths). Myths are the voice of the human race, talking about some trascendental truth, and the symbols seem to be common to all religions. Saying that the virgin birth story is a myth and not a fact doesn't make it any less interesting to me, quite the contrary.
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JacquesCousteau
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Re: How many Holy men are born to virgins througout history? [Re: tomas]
#3833852 - 02/25/05 04:46 PM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
tomas said: when you believe you refuse to think, belief is the end of thought. I think it's more healthy to be skeptic. For example, it allows you to think of those stories as myths, and understand that they may have a common ground in the human psyche. Myths are popular dreams (just as dreams are personal myths). Myths are the voice of the human race, talking about some trascendental truth, and the symbols seem to be common to all religions. Saying that the virgin birth story is a myth and not a fact doesn't make it any less interesting to me, quite the contrary.
Awesome! Fucking awesome. Very well put.
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phi1618
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Re: How many Holy men are born to virgins througout history? [Re: tomas]
#3833925 - 02/25/05 04:58 PM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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I definately agree that it's a mistake to treat legends as facts, but I'm still not sure that the virgin birth is a common motif.
Could sombody cite some stories? There're some Zorastrian prophesies, the Jesus myth, and what else?
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JCoke
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Re: How many Holy men are born to virgins througout history? [Re: JacquesCousteau]
#3834000 - 02/25/05 05:17 PM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
JacquesCousteau said:
Quote:
tomas said: when you believe you refuse to think, belief is the end of thought. I think it's more healthy to be skeptic. For example, it allows you to think of those stories as myths, and understand that they may have a common ground in the human psyche. Myths are popular dreams (just as dreams are personal myths). Myths are the voice of the human race, talking about some trascendental truth, and the symbols seem to be common to all religions. Saying that the virgin birth story is a myth and not a fact doesn't make it any less interesting to me, quite the contrary.
Awesome! Fucking awesome. Very well put.
"Myths are popular dreams (just as dreams are personal myths)"
^^^this makes perfect sence to me.
I still believe anything is possible through God, including a virgin birth, however, i would'nt be hurt or feel betrayed in the least if i found out that it was a myth.
the idea of a man and women getting together, fucking and having it result in life of another human is more amazing and interesting to me than any virgin birth story, imo.
virgin birth is no harder to believe than the miracles jesus did later in his life, I guess you throw all that stuff out to because it's not logical either.
i don't think it's wrong to see it as a myth, but I do thinks it's wrong to see it as a myth because you don't think God could do that, or becasue it does'nt fit your logic.
-------------------- hello, your name is life on earth ------------------------------------ "I traveled a long way seeking God, but when I finally gave up and turned back, there He was, within me! O Lalli! Now why do you wander like a beggar? Make some effort, and He will grant you a vision of Himself in the form of bliss in your heart." -the saint of the Kashmir Shaivism tradition: Lalli.
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uriahchase
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Re: How many Holy men are born to virgins througout history? [Re: MAGnum]
#3834078 - 02/25/05 05:36 PM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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ZERO.
--------------------
Wanting to be someone else is a waste of the person you are -Kurt Cobain Hotter than the left sink handle.
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tomas
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Re: How many Holy men are born to virgins througout history? [Re: phi1618]
#3835415 - 02/25/05 11:48 PM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
phi1618 said: Could sombody cite some stories? There're some Zorastrian prophesies, the Jesus myth, and what else?
I love this stuff, I'm studying this subject right now for a class I'm taking on occidental mythology
The legend of Dionysus (equivalent to the roman Bacchus) is very similar to the christian myth. Earth goddess Demeter left her virgin daughter Persephone in a cave and let Zeus (father of Persephone) know where she was. Then Zeus came to the cave in the form of a giant serpent and copulated with his daughter Persephone. And from this union was born Dionysus, god of bread and wine, who dies and lives for ever, who was born and raised in that cave, then as a child he was dismembered, and finally resurrected.
There's another story of virgin birth involving Zeus (apparently Zeus had a predilection for virgins). Danae (or Diana) was the daughter of Acrisius, king of Argos. Acrisius feared the birth of the prophesied child (who according to the oracle would kill him), so he shut her up in a brazen chamber. But Zeus came in the form of a rain of gold (?) and impregnated her. Soon after wards Perseus was born.
Heracles (the roman Hercules) also was born of the union of Zeus with a mortal. But in this case I'm not sure the mother was virgin
In the East, Krishna was born from the virgin Devaki (the Divine One), in whose womb Vishnu had placed hairs from his head.
And in Mezoamerica, the Aztec feathered-snake god Quetzalcoatl (equivalent to the Mayan Kukulkan) is born from the virgin goddess Coatlicue.
Even within the Catholic Church there are different manifestations of the mother goddess, and all are accepted as the virgin Mary: Our Lady of Guadalupe in Mexico, Our Lady of Chartres in France, etc. The virgin Mary, Persephone, the Egyptian goddess Isis, all seem to be local manifestations of one theme: the mother-wife of the god who dies and resurrects.
(Edited to correct some typos, and added reference to Krishna and Quetzalcoatl.)
Edited by tomas (02/26/05 12:49 AM)
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phi1618
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Re: How many Holy men are born to virgins througout history? [Re: tomas]
#3835888 - 02/26/05 05:33 AM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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As I understand it, Krishna was the eighth child of a queen (Vasudeva) and her husband, who were inprisoned by her brother. Vasudeva is refered to as Devaki in some sources, but I don't recall any suggestion that she was a virgin at the birth of her eigth child. Her brother killed all of her previous children, but Vishnu intervened at Krishna's birth and prevented the evil brother from killing him.
Here is an interesting paper claiming that the pre-Hispanic virgin birth was Huitzilopochtli's myth, not Quetzalcoatl's: http://frontpage2000.nmia.com/~nahualli/Quetzalcoatl/Elements/virgin.htm
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