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OfflinePhred
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Translated text of Iraq constitution
    #4595322 - 08/29/05 04:12 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Here is a link to the full text of the draft of the new Iraq constitution (translated into English) which will be voted on by the people of Iraq in a nation-wide referendum scheduled for October 15, 2005.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/28/intern...s5KO5VjK1veaQ2w



Phred


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InvisibleSwami
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Registered: 01/19/00
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Re: Translated text of Iraq constitution [Re: Phred]
    #4595368 - 08/29/05 04:32 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

I wonder if it will be as "flexible" as the US Constitution where entire meanings of phrases and words can be changed and redefined on-the-fly to suit the agenda of those in power.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlinefalcon
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Registered: 04/01/02
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Re: Translated text of Iraq constitution [Re: Phred]
    #4595490 - 08/29/05 05:28 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

>>This is a good line form article 18:

7th -- Court sessions will be open unless the court decides to make them secret.

>>Maybe it loses something in translation.

>>I like this one from article 31:

1st -- Every Iraqi has the right to health services, and the state is in charge of public health and guarantees the means of protection and treatment by building different kinds of hospitals and health institutions.

>>Hey that's not democracy is it? Sounds sort of like socialism. To each his own.



>>Any idea why Iraq would put a restriction in it's constitution banning weapons production?
>>From article 9:


e) The Iraqi government shall respect and implement Iraq's international commitments regarding the nonproliferation, non-development, non-production, and non-use of nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons. Associated equipment, material, technologies, and communications systems for use in the development, manufacture, production, and use of such weapons shall be banned.

>>Sort of sounds like not the kind of thing you would put in your
constitution.
>>You might put something to spell out how you would deal with other nations.
>>To write into your constitution such a restriction, seems a little restricting.


Edited by falcon (08/29/05 05:30 PM)


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Translated text of Iraq constitution [Re: falcon]
    #4595501 - 08/29/05 05:34 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

e) The Iraqi government shall respect and implement Iraq's international commitments regarding the nonproliferation, non-development, non-production, and non-use of nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons. Associated equipment, material, technologies, and communications systems for use in the development, manufacture, production, and use of such weapons shall be banned.

Wonder where that line came from? *nudge nudge wink wink*

Remember, only certain Christian nations know when it is morally acceptable to use napalm, Agent Orange, cluster bombs and nukes.


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Offlinebarfightlard
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Re: Translated text of Iraq constitution [Re: Swami]
    #4595516 - 08/29/05 05:41 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
e) The Iraqi government shall respect and implement Iraq's international commitments regarding the nonproliferation, non-development, non-production, and non-use of nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons. Associated equipment, material, technologies, and communications systems for use in the development, manufacture, production, and use of such weapons shall be banned.

Wonder where that line came from? *nudge nudge wink wink*

Remember, only certain Christian nations know when it is morally acceptable to use napalm, Agent Orange, cluster bombs and nukes.




:rotfl:


--------------------

"What business is it of yours what I do, read, buy, see, say, think, who I fuck, what I take into my body - as long as I do not harm another human being on this planet?" - Bill Hicks


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Translated text of Iraq constitution [Re: falcon]
    #4595540 - 08/29/05 05:52 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

You mean you can't have a socialist democracy?


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: Translated text of Iraq constitution [Re: Swami]
    #4595546 - 08/29/05 05:55 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
I wonder if it will be as "flexible" as the US Constitution where entire meanings of phrases and words can be changed and redefined on-the-fly to suit the agenda of those in power.




Ever the negative from the "Crossed Over."

3 pages in and I like this
"1st -- Each person has the right to personal privacy as long as it does not violate the rights of others or general morality."

and
"1st -- Private property is protected and the owner has the right to use it, exploit it and benefit from it within the boundaries of the law."

The "general morality" and the "within the boundaries of the law" stuff are squirrelly but it's a good start to just say no.

Seems all in all pretty good. I suspect that the poopie things for the Sunni triangle resides somewhere in the fact that the oil is not in their part of the country and they don't get much. Too fucking bad. Iraq could be diced up into 3 parts and guess what. They'd have even less than a share. That is what they'd get out of a civil war. A split country with less oil for them anyway. I haven't gotten that far anyway. Tell me again how much NY State gets in revenue from the Alaska and Texas oilfields.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Translated text of Iraq constitution [Re: falcon]
    #4595554 - 08/29/05 05:56 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

falcon writes:

Quote:

1st -- Every Iraqi has the right to health services, and the state is in charge of public health and guarantees the means of protection and treatment by building different kinds of hospitals and health institutions.

>>Hey that's not democracy is it? Sounds sort of like socialism. To each his own.




Sounds sort of like Canada. Or England. Or Italy. Or Sweden.





Phred


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InvisibleLos_Pepes
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Re: Translated text of Iraq constitution [Re: Phred]
    #4595639 - 08/29/05 06:26 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Deleted: Has nothing to do with the topic of this thread. -Seuss


Edited by Seuss (08/30/05 07:43 AM)


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InvisibleLos_Pepes
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Re: Translated text of Iraq constitution [Re: Los_Pepes]
    #4595658 - 08/29/05 06:31 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Deleted: Has nothing to do with the topic of this thread. -Seuss


Edited by Seuss (08/30/05 07:44 AM)


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Translated text of Iraq constitution [Re: Los_Pepes]
    #4595686 - 08/29/05 06:38 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Hey PeePee, I don't even read your posts anymore. Get your lazy ass head out of your butt and stop just posting inappropriate crap. To the mods, go ahead and ban me if you think this is a flame but fuck someone has to say this and the same should be sent to LSDempire. Whadda we got 12 threads hijacked by these two guys. They don't even try


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InvisibleKingOftheThing
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Re: Translated text of Iraq constitution [Re: Phred]
    #4595733 - 08/29/05 06:52 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

ill translate it for you and i havent even read it:

durkah durkah islam rules, durkah durkah american companies get access to all the oil, durkah durkah women have to wear bee keeper suits and get punched in the face by guys, durkah durkah we will cut off your head for smoking a joint durkah durkah


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Translated text of Iraq constitution [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #4595798 - 08/29/05 07:09 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Another brilliant KOTT analysis full of references


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Translated text of Iraq constitution [Re: Phred]
    #4595988 - 08/29/05 08:05 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)


(a) No law can be passed that contradicts the undisputed rules of Islam.

(b) No law can be passed that contradicts the principles of democracy.


Oxy-moron of the year.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Translated text of Iraq constitution [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #4596000 - 08/29/05 08:10 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Still can't beat "left-over rock"


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Translated text of Iraq constitution [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #4596051 - 08/29/05 08:24 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

I disagree.

de?moc?ra?cy
1. Government by the people, exercised either directly or through elected representatives.

This government is represented by the people; if the people as a majority (and I would guess vast majority in Iraq) choose to have Islam as the leading force in their laws, then this is completely democratic. It would be undemocratic not to have Islam as the basis of the laws if that is what "the people" want.

That is why the War on Drugs and other controversial methods are also democratic; they are supported by the majority of the people in a government run by the people. A democracy isn't "equal rights to every tiny minority", it's simply a government where the majority chooses the laws and path the country will take.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Translated text of Iraq constitution [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #4596077 - 08/29/05 08:33 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Look at the three clauses (a, b and c). I read it as meaning no law may be passed that contradicts any one of the three restrictions. If the law does not contradict the undisputed principles of Islam and does not contradict the principles of democracy and does not violate human rights principles, it may be passed.

But if it meets a and b but does not meet c, it may not be passed. I fail to see the problem.

Further, note the careful inclusion of the word "undisputed". I believe that word is in there on purpose, for the simple fact that there are certain Islamic principles which are undisputed no matter which sect of Islam you consult, while other principles (mostly arising from commentary on Mohammed's words rather than the words themselves) are disputed. Naturally, the disputed clauses are the ones which are the source of the greatest contention, and those sects (Wahabbist for one) which lean most heavily on the disputed parts are those which tend to have the most jihadists. The term "disputed" has a special significance in Islamic theological debate, that is why I believe the selection of the word "undisputed" was deliberate. Of course, this is a translation of the Arabic text -- it may be the translator chose what he thought was a suitable synonym not grasping the theological significance of the specific Arabic word for "disputed". It would be interesting to know the qualifications of the translator. Is the translator a non-Muslim native English speaker who learned Arabic or a Muslim native Arabic speaker who learned English?

Is it a perfect constitution? Nope. Is it pretty good for a first shot? Yep. Don't forget America's first shot at a constitution didn't go too well either -- it wasn't till 1789 that it was finally hammered out, and even then it has been amended numerous times since. The Iraqi constituion also has provisions for future amendments.

Besides, it is not a given that the Iraqi people will ratify this draft as it stands. It's mostly the Sunnis who are carping about it, and a two-thirds "no" vote in three of Iraq's provinces would defeat this draft of the constitution. Since Sunni Arabs are the majority in at least four provinces, ratification is not a slam dunk.



Phred


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OfflineLSDempire
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Re: Translated text of Iraq constitution [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #4596745 - 08/29/05 11:20 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

RandalFlagg said:

(a) No law can be passed that contradicts the undisputed rules of Islam.

(b) No law can be passed that contradicts the principles of democracy.


Oxy-moron of the year.




Fuck, first time we agree.


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OfflineLSDempire
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Re: Translated text of Iraq constitution [Re: Ravus]
    #4596760 - 08/29/05 11:22 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
I disagree.

de?moc?ra?cy
1. Government by the people, exercised either directly or through elected representatives.

This government is represented by the people; if the people as a majority (and I would guess vast majority in Iraq) choose to have Islam as the leading force in their laws, then this is completely democratic. It would be undemocratic not to have Islam as the basis of the laws if that is what "the people" want.

That is why the War on Drugs and other controversial methods are also democratic; they are supported by the majority of the people in a government run by the people. A democracy isn't "equal rights to every tiny minority", it's simply a government where the majority chooses the laws and path the country will take.




Your wrong, that's simply the majority forcing their ignorance on the rest of society. Were witch hunts democratic as well then?


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OfflineLSDempire
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Re: Translated text of Iraq constitution [Re: Phred]
    #4596768 - 08/29/05 11:24 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
Look at the three clauses (a, b and c). I read it as meaning no law may be passed that contradicts any one of the three restrictions. If the law does not contradict the undisputed principles of Islam and does not contradict the principles of democracy and does not violate human rights principles, it may be passed.

But if it meets a and b but does not meet c, it may not be passed. I fail to see the problem.

Further, note the careful inclusion of the word "undisputed". I believe that word is in there on purpose, for the simple fact that there are certain Islamic principles which are undisputed no matter which sect of Islam you consult, while other principles (mostly arising from commentary on Mohammed's words rather than the words themselves) are disputed. Naturally, the disputed clauses are the ones which are the source of the greatest contention, and those sects (Wahabbist for one) which lean most heavily on the disputed parts are those which tend to have the most jihadists. The term "disputed" has a special significance in Islamic theological debate, that is why I believe the selection of the word "undisputed" was deliberate. Of course, this is a translation of the Arabic text -- it may be the translator chose what he thought was a suitable synonym not grasping the theological significance of the specific Arabic word for "disputed". It would be interesting to know the qualifications of the translator. Is the translator a non-Muslim native English speaker who learned Arabic or a Muslim native Arabic speaker who learned English?

Is it a perfect constitution? Nope. Is it pretty good for a first shot? Yep. Don't forget America's first shot at a constitution didn't go too well either -- it wasn't till 1789 that it was finally hammered out, and even then it has been amended numerous times since. The Iraqi constituion also has provisions for future amendments.

Besides, it is not a given that the Iraqi people will ratify this draft as it stands. It's mostly the Sunnis who are carping about it, and a two-thirds "no" vote in three of Iraq's provinces would defeat this draft of the constitution. Since Sunni Arabs are the majority in at least four provinces, ratification is not a slam dunk.



Phred




So if most people are evil, evil must be OK! I understand your logic, but I can't agree with you.


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