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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,201
Loc: Lost In Space
Who armed Iraq?
    #1387485 - 03/18/03 10:23 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Sorry this is so long.

____________________


Who Armed Iraq?
Charles R. Smith
Monday, March 17, 2003
Myth vs. Fact


Name one weapon in the Iraqi arsenal that was made in the United States.

I have offered that challenge to dozens of so-called anti-war activists who claim that the U.S. armed Iraq. According to these protesters for "peace," George Bush Sr. and Ronald Reagan supplied Iraq with tons of weapons.

None have been able to name the specific weapon ? missile, bomb, fighter, tank or shell ? that is U.S.-made or has U.S. equipment installed in it. None have been able to name any specific weapon system.

All of them have failed the challenge, providing no more than allegations that U.S. parts are in Iraqi missiles or U.S. electronics are being used by the Iraqi military. One protester even claimed that Iraq was armed with U.S.-made trucks.

Since when is a truck a weapon? Are the Iraqis going to drive backwards, fuel tank first, into the U.S. Army?

Time to separate the myth from the reality. The propaganda spun by the far left is false. The facts show that Iraq is armed with a wide range of weapons ? none of which came from the U.S.

Iraqi Air Force

The Iraqi air force does not fly Falcons or Eagles. The majority of the Iraqi air force is made in Russia. The Russian MiG and Sukhoi design bureaus supplied Iraq with hundreds of advanced strike-fighters and the Mach 3 Foxbat interceptor.

Saddam could field a force of advanced MiG-29 Fulcrum fighters if they had not chickened out of combat during the Gulf War, flying to Iran for asylum. The Iranians, who love Saddam even less than we do, never returned the MiGs.

The remainder of the Iraqi air force comes from France and China. The Chinese supplied Saddam with the Chengdu F-7, a copy of the Russian MiG-21. The F-7 can fly from unimproved runways and is known to be a vicious in-close dog fighter.

However, the French Mirage F-1 is reportedly the best jet fighter in Iraqi hands. You can view an Iraqi F-1 in action on the State Department Web site, testing a chemical spraying system.

If you still believe that the Iraqis have no chemical weapons, think again. Iraq did not modify its best multimillion-dollar fighter jet to spray for fruit flies.

Anyone with half of a brain knows that you cannot keep a modern jet fighter in the air without spare parts. Thus the Russian, Chinese and French jets should be museum pieces after 12 years of a so-called U.N. ban on weapons sales to Iraq. Yet somehow Saddam has his air force flying over 1,000 sorties a month.

Thanks to excellent reporting by Bill Gertz we now know that France has been supplying spare parts for Saddam's Mirage fighters. The French spare parts arrived in Baghdad not 20 years ago during the Cold War but last year, just in time to face our forces today.

Merci! With friends like, that who needs enemies?

Iraqi Missiles

Perhaps the Iraqi missile force has some U.S.-made weapons? Not. The primary Iraqi missile is the Russian-made Scud. Other missiles include the FROG-7 from Russia, the Exocet from France and the Silkworm from China.

The Iraqi air defense has plenty of missiles ... from Russia, China and France. The SA-2 Guideline, SA-3 Goa and SA-6 Gainful SAM missiles are all of Russian or Chinese manufacture. The French also supplied Baghdad with a number of Roland air defense missile systems.

Even the missile parts are from Chinese, German and French sources. Israeli authorities know full well what is inside Iraqi-made Scud missiles since many of them fell on Tel Aviv during the Gulf War. The Israelis found that the Scud warhead electronics were made in Germany ? not the U.S.A.

In addition, William Safire recently wrote a column noting that a Chinese chemical company had supplied rocket fuel to Iraq through a French front company. Safire identified the fuel, the companies and the Iraqi missile facility where it was mixed into new Iraqi rockets. Again, the missile fuel sale was made within the last year, just in time to make new Iraqi missiles pointed at Kuwait, Turkey, Saudi Arabia and Iran.

Saddam sends his love to Paris and Beijing. Without your help he certainly could not threaten his neighbors with nerve gas and anthrax.

Iraqi Army

Okay, if not jet fighters and missiles, then how about tanks? Certainly the biggest weapons seller in the world, the U.S.A., sold tanks to Iraq.

The Iraqi armor force is made up of Chinese and Russian models familiar to any "cold" warrior. The Iraqi T-72 and T-55 tanks are all of Russian manufacture. The Iraqis also have a large number of Type-59 Chinese tanks and Russian-made BMP armored troop carriers. No M-1 Abrams here.

How about attack helicopters? The Iraqis have a number of choppers they used against the Kurds and Shiites.

So sorry, the Iraqi attack chopper force is Russian and French. The Russians supplied Iraq with a large number of the Mil-24 Hind attack helicopters, armed to the teeth with cannon, missiles and even chemical weapon sprayers.

The French supplied Saddam with a large number of Gazelle attack helicopters. The same French also managed to keep Saddam's attack helicopter force flying today with spare parts.

Guns, then? Surely the U.S. supplied Saddam with guns?

Nope. The main Iraqi artillery is the French 155mm howitzer. The remainder of Iraq's artillery is 122mm Russian-made cannons and Russian-made short-range rocket launchers. Even the Iraqi foot soldier is armed with the venerable AK-47 of Russian and Chinese make.

Iran-Iraq War

The facts are that during the Iran-Iraq war the U.S. supplied Iraq with something much more valuable than guns: satellite information on when and where the Iranians were going to attack.

Of course, current anti-war activists seize this piece of information without putting it into historical context. The information was supplied during the height of the Cold War. The main threat to America was the Soviet Union and the biggest fear in the Gulf was the Ayatollah Khomeini.

You remember the chant "death to America"? It almost seems that the ayatollah invented it. Ironically, the Ayatollah made his way to Tehran from his home in exile ? Paris.

The Reagan administration, aware that the Iranian ayatollah had threatened to turn the Gulf into a sea of fire, assisted Saddam so that he would not lose the war. The assistance stopped short of helping Saddam win the war.

In fact, when it appeared the Iraqis were on the verge of victory, the Reagan administration transferred real weapons to the Iranians. The infamous Iran-Contra scandal involved a large number of badly needed U.S. TOW anti-tank missiles that were sold to Iran.

The U.S. missiles proved to be critical to the Iranian defense against Iraq's superior Russian tank force. The result was a stalemate and the war ended.

France/Russia/China

The fact is that Saddam owes billions to France, Russia and China for weapons purchases. Clearly, Iraq is buying more weapons from Paris and Beijing despite a U.N. arms embargo. Perhaps one reason why Paris, Moscow and Beijing oppose a war in Iraq is because they would lose their best customer.

The propaganda spun by the far left that the U.S. armed Iraq is false and backed by no facts. The so-called anti-war types are more interested in slamming Bush than stopping a war. None have been able to name one American-made weapon in the Iraqi arsenal.

More importantly, none of them can give one good reason why Saddam should stay in power.



--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Who armed Iraq? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1387631 - 03/18/03 10:55 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Don't you know that those other countries were forced to supply arms to Iraq by the American capitalist exploiters.  IT'S ALL AMERICA'S FAULT!!!  :wink:


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Who armed Iraq? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1387633 - 03/18/03 10:56 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

http://www.rense.com/general32/suppe.htm

Among the 5 constant members of the Security Council it was the USA that stood out by giving the strongest support to Saddam Hussain's regime by arming it with the means of mass destruction.

The report gives us a complete overview of these supplies for the first time. In particular it names the 24 US companies and when and to whom in Iraq the supplies were delivered. And it makes clear how strongly the Reagan and the first Bush administrations supported the arming of Iraq, from 1980 up to the Gulf conflict of 1990/91. Substantial construction units for the Iraqi nuclear weapon and rocket programs were supplied with permission of the government in Washington. The poison Anthrax for the arming of Iraq with biological weapons stemmed from US laboratories. Iraqi military and armament experts were trained in the US and there received know-how having to do with their domestic arms programs.

According to the estimation of Susan Wright, a US arms-control expert from the University of Michigan, publication of this information would be "especially embarassing for the USA." It would "remind people in the USA of a very dark chapter, which the Bush administration would prefer to forget about." Whether the US had already struck out this information before it made copies for the other 4 permanent Council members continues to be unclear.

Author: Andreas Zumach
Original in German at http://www.taz.de/pt/2002/12/18/a0049.nf/text
Translator: Anu de Monterice


The full list of arms suppliers to Iraq, as published by the taz on 12/19/02, can be found at http://www.taz.de/pt/2002/12/19/a0080.nf/textdruck

Legend used in this list:

A = nuclear program,
B = bioweapons program,
C = chemical weapons program,
R = rocket program,
K = conventional weapons, military logistics, supplies at the Iraqi Defense Ministry and the building of military plants.

After the list of US firms are these remarks: "In addition to these 24 companies home-based in the USA are 50 subsidiaries of foreign enterprises which conducted their arms business with Iraq from within the US. Also designated as suppliers for Iraq's arms programs (A, B, C & R) are the US Ministries of Defense, Energy, Trade and Agriculture as well as the Lawrence Livermore, Los Alamos and Sandia National Laboratories." (Anu's translation)


US CORPORATIONS

1 Honeywell (R, K)

2 Spectra Physics (K)

3 Semetex (R)

4 TI Coating (A, K)

5 Unisys (A, K)

6 Sperry Corp. (R, K)

7 Tektronix (R, A)

8 Rockwell (K)

9 Leybold Vacuum Systems (A)

10 Finnigan-MAT-US (A)

11 Hewlett-Packard (A, R, K)

12 Dupont (A)

13 Eastman Kodak (R)

14 American Type Culture Collection (B)

15 Alcolac International (C)

16 Consarc (A)

17 Carl Zeiss - U.S (K)

18 Cerberus (LTD) (A)

19 Electronic Associates (R)

20 International Computer Systems (A, R, K)

21 Bechtel (K)

22 EZ Logic Data Systems, Inc. (R)

23 Canberra Industries Inc. (A)

24 Axel Electronics Inc. (A)


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,201
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Who armed Iraq? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1387673 - 03/18/03 11:04 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Come on Alpo, anything since 1991?

I'd imagine anything sold that long ago has either worn out or been replaced long ago.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Who armed Iraq? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1387720 - 03/18/03 11:18 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

What are you talking about? Sanctions have been in place since 1991 bozo.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Anonymous

Re: Who armed Iraq? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1387785 - 03/18/03 11:39 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

hahaha... bozo...


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,201
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Who armed Iraq? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1388259 - 03/18/03 02:31 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

I'll make it plainer for the mentally deficient. (that's you Alpo)

What has the US sold him since 91?

There's enough strong evidence that as recently as last year the frogs were still selling goods to Iraq. I guess we'll find out for sure soon enough.

Oh yes, try the Dick and Jane books. Maybe, just maybe, they'll help your comprehension skills.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Edited by luvdemshrooms (03/18/03 02:33 PM)


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OfflineSkikid16
fungus fan

Registered: 06/27/02
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Re: Who armed Iraq? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1388457 - 03/18/03 03:39 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Israeli authorities know full well what is inside Iraqi-made Scud missiles since many of them fell on Tel Aviv during the Gulf War. The Israelis found that the Scud warhead electronics were made in Germany

Am I the only one that saw the irony in this?


--------------------
Re-Defeat Bush in '04


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OfflineMurex
Reality Hacker

Registered: 07/28/02
Posts: 3,599
Loc: Traped in a shell.
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Re: Who armed Iraq? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1388622 - 03/18/03 04:37 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

We sell them the shit we don't use anymore. The weapons that we sold them aren't all that great. Iraq can have weapons BTW, just not offencive weapons.


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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OfflineTheCaptain
addict

Registered: 09/04/01
Posts: 426
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Re: Who armed Iraq? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1388834 - 03/18/03 05:46 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

The weapons were looking for are the ones we gave them, before 1991. If we were really concerned with him using WMD we would have taken them back then. Furthermore, If he was going to use them- that was his perfect chance.


--------------------
"I mean, it's real hard to be free when you are bought and sold in the marketplace. 'Course, don't ever tell anybody that they're not free 'cause then they're gonna get real busy killin' and maimin' to prove to you that they are."


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Who armed Iraq? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1389078 - 03/18/03 07:26 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

What has the US sold him since 91?

Let me repeat this so you can sit there and stare blankly at the screen in a desperate but doomed effort to comprehend:

There's been a UN embargo on selling arms to Iraq since 1991


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,201
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Who armed Iraq? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1389567 - 03/18/03 11:55 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Look numbnuts, I'm aware of that. I know there is an embargo. As you rant and rave about the weapons the US sold Iraq, you post a list of things sold before 1991. As this is old news, I asked what has the US sold him since 1991?

Since you obviously would have to answer none, and since you would also have to answer the question of how much of that still works after 12 years with another answer of none or very little, your childish rant about the US selling him weapons becomes rather pathetic, just like many of your answers to most questions (those that you even attempt to answer anyway).

Among the countries still (allegedly) selling him arms are in the article at the top of this thread. Now not surprising to those without their heads as far up their asses as yours apparently is, the most vocal members of the naysayers on the UN security council are the countries violating the arms embargo.

But of course that's why once again you fail to answer even the simplest of questions, and instead resort to answers like your last post.

I used to believe you were just a moron. Now however after having watched you dance around questions like a chicken shit prize fighter who occasionally comes close to striking a blow but who dances away at the last moment, too afraid to take the chance that he's not as good as he thinks, I realize that at your best, you're disingenuous, at worst an out and out liar

See Alpo run, run Alpo run. Dodge Alpo dodge. Weave Alpo weave.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
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Re: Who armed Iraq? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1389637 - 03/19/03 01:07 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

All very interesting but I dont see what your point is. Are you saying that because the US only funded and armed Iraq prior to 1991 then this provides some justification for attacking them now?



--------------------
Always Smi2le


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,201
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Who armed Iraq? [Re: GazzBut]
    #1389888 - 03/19/03 04:22 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Not at all. I'm saying that complaining about actions that that happened in 91 and not saying anything about more recent ones is sadly pathetic and moronic. Other countries have been selling Iraq arms despite the embargo far more recently but since your fellow countryman despises the US so much he turns a blind eye in that direction and countinues to blame the US for all the worlds problems. All while weaving and dodgeing questions asked of him.

Now, while I rarely agree with you on anything, I at least have a bit more respect for you. You have actually admitted errors and changed positions, which is the sign of someone willing to actually debate rather than rant.

So, kudos (minor ones anyway) to you.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Who armed Iraq? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1390020 - 03/19/03 05:25 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

I'm saying that complaining about actions that that happened in 91

The trouble is most of the chemical and biological weapons - the reason we are actually supposed to be going to war now remember - were sold to Iraq before 1991.

Guess who by slowcoach.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Who armed Iraq? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1390063 - 03/19/03 05:40 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

but since your fellow countryman despises the US so much

Don't try and pass yourself and Shrub off as "the US" luv. Supporting the shrub is a far better indicator of hatred of the US than anything I've posted.

I love the US, I just don't love Dubya. They arn't, and never will be, the same thing.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineRonoS
DSYSB since '01
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/26/01
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Re: Who armed Iraq? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1390142 - 03/19/03 06:05 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

I'm saying that complaining about actions that that happened in 91 and not saying anything about more recent ones is sadly pathetic and moronic.


Oh the irony....


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,201
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Who armed Iraq? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1390299 - 03/19/03 06:49 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Does the term shelf-life mean anything to you quarter-wit?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: Who armed Iraq? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1390888 - 03/19/03 10:06 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

I'm saying that complaining about actions that that happened in 91

The trouble is most of the chemical and biological weapons - the reason we are actually supposed to be going to war now remember - were sold to Iraq before 1991.

Guess who by slowcoach.




Iraq was supposed to destroy these weapons after the agreement they entered into. They did not. That is the problem.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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Offlineflow
outlaw immortal
Registered: 11/20/02
Posts: 496
Last seen: 2 years, 5 months
Re: Who armed Iraq? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1390979 - 03/19/03 10:36 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

The trouble is most of the chemical and biological weapons - the reason we are actually supposed to be going to war now remember - were sold to Iraq before 1991.



No not just chem and bio. WMD includes of course, nuclear weapons which is obviously a much bigger threat.
"Although Iraq remains under a strict United Nations embargo, the embargo does not cover medical supplies. Last year, the Iraqi government ordered half a dozen lithotripters, which are state-of-the-art machines for getting rid of kidney stones......In addition to the lithotripters, Iraq wanted to buy a hundred and twenty extra switches. That is at least a hundred more than the machines would ever need......Iraq's strange hankering for this particular "spare part" becomes less mysterious when one reflects that the switch in question has another use: it can trigger an atomic bomb. According to a knowledgeable U.N. inspector, each bomb of the type that Iraq is trying to build requires thirty-two switches.......It is hardly a coincidence that, as the former U.N. inspector Scott Ritter testified at a Senate hearing last year (1998), the inspectors had "intelligence information which indicates that components necessary for three nuclear weapons exist" in Iraq. Saddam Hussein has been shopping for what he needs to make sure they work..... The U.N. inspectors have learned that Iraq's first bomb design, which weighed a ton and was just over a yard in diameter, has been replaced by a smaller, more efficient model. The inspectors have deduced that the new design weighs only about one thousand three hundred pounds and measures about twenty-five inches in diameter. That makes it small enough to fit on a Scud-type missile. The inspectors believe that Iraq may still have nine such missiles hidden somewhere....then the only thing he lacks is enough weapons-grade uranium to fuel the warheads. "
DEPT. OF MASS DESTRUCTION:
Saddam's nuclear shopping spree.
by Gary Milhollin

The New Yorker
The Talk of the Town
December 13, 1999, p. 44.

Anyone else find this scarier than a US invasion? But of course, as Alex would say it's an american paper so it's really just propaganda.


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