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OfflinePhluck
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Sensation vs. Reality
    #4484875 - 08/02/05 12:22 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

People often get the feeling that things are a certain way. A strong sensation that something is true doesn't necessarily have any bearing on reality.

Often these sensations are really just a reflection of bias, people will even use them as an argument for a certain belief.

For instance;
"I know there's something supernatural about the way the pyramids were built, just look at them, there's no way people could have done that using conventional ideas."

Not an uncommon claim, but there is actually a handful of tested theories about systems used to build the pyramids.

It's actually a fairly common logical fallacy, but I can't remember the name right now. Where you claim that something is obviously a certain way, or must be a certain way, without any information that validates the claim. Sometimes people confuse a strong feeling that they are right, with actually being right.

People often say things like "Well, I *know* I'm right, I don't need proof."

"Knowing" is a sensation, it has nothing to do with reality. Why do people think that their brains are so deeply linked to truth? Would the sensation be any different if you were wrong?

Is the sensation of "knowing" something that turns out to be correct any different from the sensation of "knowing" something that turns out to be incorrect? I highly doubt it.

I think that this kind of thinking also influences the idea of evil. A lot of people have trouble thinking of others who have strongly opposing opinions as honest. People become so convinced that the strength of their convictions indicates truth that they figure that people with opposing opinions couldn't possibly feel the same sensation of "knowing" that they do.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Offlinealsey
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Re: Sensation vs. Reality [Re: Phluck]
    #4485157 - 08/02/05 02:03 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Phluck said:
It's actually a fairly common logical fallacy, but I can't remember the name right now. Where you claim that something is obviously a certain way, or must be a certain way, without any information that validates the claim.




i don't think that's a fallacy, because its not even an argument (there is no premise), its just a statement. i guess you could call it an appeal to authority, where the authority is yourself.

for example, "pyramids were obviously constructed supernaturally" is not a fallacy, its just an incorrect statement.

good post though.


--------------------
"Gently return to the simple physical sensation of the breath. Then do it again, and again, and again. Somewhere in this process, you will come face-to-face with the sudden and shocking realization that you are completely crazy. Your mind is a shrieking, gibbering madhouse on wheels." - ven. henepola gunaratana


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Sensation vs. Reality [Re: Phluck]
    #4485202 - 08/02/05 02:14 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Well I do agree with you that the mere "sensation" of knowing something to be "true" is not enough to displace all evidence to the contrary.

However I do think that this "sensation", what I would refer to as "intuition", can in many cases be quite valid, even "true", and as such can be used as a pointer in the direction you should look for "real" evidence.

Intuition is not highly developed in many (maybe most) people, but in others it can become the driving force behind their intellect.

I certainly don't think you can say that "intuition" falls on the level of mere chance for it's correctness...

Intuition, while feeling entirely "internal", is actually just as external as regualr sensory data is. Intuition is a method of information gathering where the whole is given more importance than the parts.

Instead of worrying about the details, I may simply try to get a "feel" for how the system as a whole works. For hands-on type of activities, this method has proven (to me) invaluable. I can fix many things without having to ever know what was wrong in the first place. I may sit in front of a computer randomly clicking things for a few minutes, only to suddenly "know" what it is I have to do to fix it. That act of "knowing" does not follow any logical process. I do not go from step A to B to C to D...but skip straight from A to D. It is only in retrospect that the logical nature of the solution becomes apparant.

Math is another example where this "intuitive" sense comes into play (for me, anyway). My teachers in high school used to hate grading my tests because I never showed any of my work - just wrote down the answers. A lot of the time it was just because I could do the work in my head, but a good portion of the time it's because I just didn't do any work. I looked at the question and thought "Aha! This feels like the answer!". The reason my teachers hated it so much, was because well over 80% of the time my answers were correct :smirk:

Now, when it comes to actual decision making...I rarely trust intuition on it's own. I prefer to use intuition as a starting point - giving me a specific direction to approach a problem from - and then back up my intuitive feel with a  logical argument.

In the end, though, can you trust sensory information either? I put about as much faith in my intuitive sense as I do in my sense of sight.


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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Offlinealsey
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Re: Sensation vs. Reality [Re: trendal]
    #4485234 - 08/02/05 02:22 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

intuition, as far as i know, is based on experience. you've been exposed to certain situations before, so you can make predictions when faced with other similar situations. this doesn't make it a valid argument though.

for example, my intuition is telling me that the sun will rise tomorrow morning. that's because i've seen it happen every day of my life. however, for me to say "the sun will rise tomorrow because my intuition tells me so" or "the sun has risen every morning of my life, therefore it will rise tomorrow" would be fallacious. a sound argument would be along the lines of "the sun will rise tomorrow because [insert celestial mechanics explanation here]".

celestial mechanics, unlike intuition, actually has theory behind it to explain and validate it. it is supported by experience, but not based on it.

the fact that your intuition will only get you the right answers with your maths problems 80% of the time shows that it is not a valid 'theory'. a valid theory works 100% of the time. if you take the math problem and deduce the answer logically, you will get the right answer without fail.


--------------------
"Gently return to the simple physical sensation of the breath. Then do it again, and again, and again. Somewhere in this process, you will come face-to-face with the sudden and shocking realization that you are completely crazy. Your mind is a shrieking, gibbering madhouse on wheels." - ven. henepola gunaratana


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Sensation vs. Reality [Re: alsey]
    #4485246 - 08/02/05 02:24 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

I think there's a premise:

"X seems to be true, therefore X is true."

By stating that the pyramids are "obviously constructed supernaturally" implies that by observing them, any reasonable person would come to that conclusion.

This is bugging me though, I'm sure I've seen it before, I'm reading through various lists of fallacies looking for this one...


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Sensation vs. Reality [Re: Phluck]
    #4485250 - 08/02/05 02:25 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

actually trueness is not a "sensation"
as we do not have a truth sensor - what a thing that would be!!!

truth remains a construct or perception for which we can use other senses to supply evidence.

also there is not a sense of knowing, though you could say that recall of memory is a sense, as it feeds into consciousness the same way as touch, hearing, taste and vision do.


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OfflineSerioOria
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Re: Sensation vs. Reality [Re: Phluck]
    #4485266 - 08/02/05 02:30 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

The more knowledge one gains, the more they begin to realize that they know nothing




--------------------
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or
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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Sensation vs. Reality [Re: alsey]
    #4485267 - 08/02/05 02:30 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Yeah, I'd say intuition is based on experience, but also perhaps on some subconcious processing of information. While some people certainly claim otherwise, I've yet to see any evidence that intuition is an accurate way of determining facts.

When I catch a ball, I'm using intuition to deduce where it will be when it reaches my position. I certainly don't have time to calculate its trajectory. While its fairly effective, it's not perfect, I don't catch everything that's thrown at me because my intuition fails.

And of course, intuition sometimes gives you accurate information that seems uncanny... which brings us back to the original topic of the thread. Just because it seems like there's no logical way you could have intuitively deduced whatever it was, doesn't mean that there isn't, or even that it was an unlikely guess.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Sensation vs. Reality [Re: alsey]
    #4485279 - 08/02/05 02:35 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Note that I never equated "intuition" with "theory"....instead I was trying to indicate that "intuition" is merely another form of sensory-input, similar to but separate from the 5 common senses.

As for the math tests...I didn't use intuition for all of that 80%+....but the fact that I can get 80%+ using mainly intuition while most of the other students did worse on the tests using the actual "theories" being taught in class goes to show you that intuition is a valid method for decision-making (in the right circumstances).

Either that or I'm a math genius (not true) :smirk:

if you take the math problem and deduce the answer logically, you will get the right answer without fail.

That obviously isn't true, as nearly all of the other students I knew used logical reasoning in their attempts at answers...but most of them did worse than I did, with at least half of them doing significantly worse than I did...

Using logic doesn't prevent one from making mistakes in the logic :wink:

Before you go off on a rant...please realize that I am not promoting intuition as a replacement for logic. I am not attempting to claim that intuition is always correct (and, honestly, I'd have to be a moron to suggest such an idea).

I am simply pointing out that intuition is a valid method for information gathering. I would hazard that it is just as valid as any of the other 5 senses.


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Sensation vs. Reality [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4485283 - 08/02/05 02:36 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

actually trueness is not a "sensation"

Uh, yeah, that's what I was saying.

also there is not a sense of knowing, though you could say that recall of memory is a sense, as it feeds into consciousness the same way as touch, hearing, taste and vision do.

There isn't?

Imagine two different people experience the same thing, and draw different conclusions. One says that since he has experienced a conversation with god, and had the sensation he was there, he knows for certain that god exists.

The other person has had the sensation, but still questions the accuracy of his perception.

The first person evidently has an emotional attachment to his beliefs, and feels that they are true. He feels the sensation of "knowing" that this is true, while the other person merely recalls the experience.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Sensation vs. Reality [Re: Phluck]
    #4485285 - 08/02/05 02:37 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

While its fairly effective, it's not perfect, I don't catch everything that's thrown at me because my intuition fails.

How is this any different from logic? Logic fails, at times, just as intuition fails.

The only real difference is that intuition cannot be explained, while logic can be.


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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Offlinealsey
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Re: Sensation vs. Reality [Re: Phluck]
    #4485295 - 08/02/05 02:38 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

i think the problem is in the premise itself; "X seems to be true" is not a very precise statement; seems to be true from whose perspective? it could mean "i think X is true", or "X is generally accepted to be true". if its the former, then the fallacy would be an argumentum ad verecundiam (where the authority is the one making the argument). if its the latter, then it would be an argumentum ad populum.


--------------------
"Gently return to the simple physical sensation of the breath. Then do it again, and again, and again. Somewhere in this process, you will come face-to-face with the sudden and shocking realization that you are completely crazy. Your mind is a shrieking, gibbering madhouse on wheels." - ven. henepola gunaratana


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Sensation vs. Reality [Re: trendal]
    #4485301 - 08/02/05 02:40 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

I was trying to indicate that "intuition" is merely another form of sensory-input, similar to but separate from the 5 common senses.

But is it separate? Or is does it just the same sensations, only happening subconciously?



That obviously isn't true, as nearly all of the other students I knew used logical reasoning in their attempts at answers...but most of them did worse than I did, with at least half of them doing significantly worse than I did...

Using logic doesn't prevent one from making mistakes in the logic


Using logic properly. If you use a computer to do the math, or you check and double check at every little step, you'll get the right answers every time.


I am simply pointing out that intuition is a valid method for information gathering. I would hazard that it is just as valid as any of the other 5 senses.


It's not testable at all though. Some of the other senses can be recorded and checked for validity, and they can all be shared with others to check for consistancy. You can't do that with intuition.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Offlinealsey
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Re: Sensation vs. Reality [Re: Phluck]
    #4485302 - 08/02/05 02:40 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Phluck said:
When I catch a ball, I'm using intuition to deduce where it will be when it reaches my position. I certainly don't have time to calculate its trajectory. While its fairly effective, it's not perfect, I don't catch everything that's thrown at me because my intuition fails.




exactly. one single failure invalidates the theory.


--------------------
"Gently return to the simple physical sensation of the breath. Then do it again, and again, and again. Somewhere in this process, you will come face-to-face with the sudden and shocking realization that you are completely crazy. Your mind is a shrieking, gibbering madhouse on wheels." - ven. henepola gunaratana


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Sensation vs. Reality [Re: Phluck]
    #4485303 - 08/02/05 02:42 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

I think you might be recalling the "reasonable person" argument in law, rather than a particular logical fallacy.


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Re: Sensation vs. Reality [Re: alsey]
    #4485306 - 08/02/05 02:42 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

one single failure invalidates the theory.

So far you are the only person I've seen trying to equate "intuition" with "theory" :wink:


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Sensation vs. Reality [Re: trendal]
    #4485307 - 08/02/05 02:42 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)


How is this any different from logic? Logic fails, at times, just as intuition fails.


But logic doesn't fail, humans fail in the execution of logic. There's a big difference.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Sensation vs. Reality [Re: Phluck]
    #4485308 - 08/02/05 02:43 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Perhaps intuition doesn't fail either, but humans fail in their interpretation of intuition?


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Sensation vs. Reality [Re: Veritas]
    #4485309 - 08/02/05 02:44 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:


I think you might be recalling the "reasonable person" argument in law, rather than a particular logical fallacy.





You could be right.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Offlinealsey
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Re: Sensation vs. Reality [Re: trendal]
    #4485316 - 08/02/05 02:45 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

trendal said:
Note that I never equated "intuition" with "theory"....instead I was trying to indicate that "intuition" is merely another form of sensory-input, similar to but separate from the 5 common senses.




yes, i realise that. i was just linking what you said to the topic. just because to you, you 'know' something to be true (through intuition or whatever), doesn't mean that it is.

Quote:


That obviously isn't true, as nearly all of the other students I knew used logical reasoning in their attempts at answers...but most of them did worse than I did, with at least half of them doing significantly worse than I did...




that's a fault in their reasoning, not a fault in logic itself. if they try to deduce the answer logically and failed, then they have made a fallacious deduction.

Quote:


I am simply pointing out that intuition is a valid method for information gathering. I would hazard that it is just as valid as any of the other 5 senses.




i disagree. its useful, but not valid. my example about the sun: my intuition is useful because it saves me going through pages and pages of calculations just to see if the sun is going to rise, but using it as an argument to prove that the sun will rise is fallacious.


--------------------
"Gently return to the simple physical sensation of the breath. Then do it again, and again, and again. Somewhere in this process, you will come face-to-face with the sudden and shocking realization that you are completely crazy. Your mind is a shrieking, gibbering madhouse on wheels." - ven. henepola gunaratana


Edited by alsey (08/02/05 02:55 PM)


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