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Cathedrals and Mass
    #3975875 -

As God's presence can rarely (if ever) be felt, The Church must trick people into believing in his grandeur with 100-foot tall stained glass windows, massive pipe organs with booming, awe-inspiring sounds backed by huge choirs, stupefying gothic architecture and archaic rituals spoken in foreign tongues MCed by "special" men in unusual and decorative robes.

While an impressive spectacle, I fail to see how this is any different than a well-choreographed Vegas show.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Cathedrals and Mass [Re: Swami]
    #3975922 -

I never stepped foot in a church, or even cracked open a bible [as far as I can recall] until I was seven or eight years old. The first time I stepped in a church was in Germany. This church was the usual, classic-gothic style with ominously high ceilings and haunting organs with dramatic, nostalgic-striking Biblical-art and stained windows.

All of which would've been much more enchanting and glorious of a memory had it not been so cluttered with masses of morning-zombies, with grim appearances and redundant, repetitive sitting down and standing back up again. It was almost so strange that I honestly didn't know what to make of it, and just became deeply disinterested and fell asleep on the pew.

If I were a child who was easily spooked, it would've been an awful experience.

To this day, I am grateful for being raised without any religious or spiritual bias, or influence. If anything... it was Mother Nature in the tropics of Hawaii that was my true "church" for those seven or eight years.




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Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

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Re: Cathedrals and Mass [Re: Swami]
    #3975933 -

Have you ever read "Stranger in a Strange Land" by Heinlein. In it an attaempt is made to make a religion that appeals to all people. They end up with a Vegas style casino/bar where they are serving drinks during the service. It sounds ridiculous, but in the context of the book it made perfect sense.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Cathedrals and Mass [Re: Swami]
    #3975945 -

Swami said:
While an impressive spectacle, I fail to see how this is any different than a well-choreographed Vegas show.


No hookers, smoking, or drinking allowed while service is taught... and their after hours when everything closes down is followed by "teaching" a group of young men the "ways" of god.


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"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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Re: Cathedrals and Mass [Re: Swami]
    #3975977 -

There was no Vegas show when the cathedrals came into being. Imagine a project taking 300 years to be completed, and then being in a generation in which you could be in a Mass. I was in Cologne Cathedral a couple years ago (before I read of the atrocities, people and book burnings in front of it, where today kids skateboard), and I must admit that I was awed by the massiveness from outside of it. Inside was a trip! Those high vaulted arched ceilings, and the sunlight passing through huge stained glass windows, the esoteric symbols, multivoiced choirs, bejewelled solid gold crosses, chalices and censers. The accoustics of this place alone was so different. Then think of the [enforced] emotions of humility, piety and guilt (before huge gruesome crucifixes) added to the awe. Man, Cathedrals were THE trip for hundreds of years. Now, with enough 'expectation' and complete belief in the real and actual Transubstantial Body and Blood of Jesus Christ being swallowed - you have THE Set and Setting of Catholic Cathedral Christianity.

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Re: Cathedrals and Mass [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #3976031 -

Exactly, yet Christ taught in the open desert or by the sea with no accroutrements nor back-up vocalists.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Cathedrals and Mass [Re: Swami]
    #3976359 -

The church uses these buildings to impress people about themselfs, not god, they are using it as kings use their thrones and crown, to make people feel they are special

Some christian churches just have these meetings in an empty room with a cross, and a bunch of people talking about things they have on mind. It is much closer to the original christian idea.


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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

Edited by OldWoodSpecter (03/27/05 02:55 PM)

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Re: Cathedrals and Mass [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #3977324 -

god's presence is everywhere and everything.
god is not some guy, that would need to choose between being present at one church or another.
not an individual soul like we think ourselves to be. god is simply the all encompassing consciousness of the universe.

i think thats where christians have things a little mixed up (i was raised christian). they take things too literally, thinking god is some big man they'll meet when they die. and that somehow they have a personal relationship with him..

but i think when its said that "god loves you" or "jesus loves you", its not about a relationship in the human sense of the word. its simply because god is the collective of consciousness and you are one unit of that consciousness.

considering you're posting on a forum about magic mushrooms, i would have thought u'd know that god's presence can be felt anywhere. because god's presence is always there, right under your nose.
it just takes a different perspective to feel it.

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Re: Cathedrals and Mass [Re: Swami]
    #3977352 -

Quote:
The Church must trick people into believing in his grandeur with 100-foot tall stained glass windows, massive pipe organs with booming, awe-inspiring sounds backed by huge choirs, stupefying gothic architecture and archaic rituals spoken in foreign tongues MCed by "special" men in unusual and decorative robes.



Massive ain't it?
WR :wexican:


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To old for this place

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Re: Cathedrals and Mass [Re: BoneMan]
    #3977370 -

BoneMan said:
god's presence is everywhere and everything.
god is not some guy, that would need to choose between being present at one church or another.
not an individual soul like we think ourselves to be. god is simply the all encompassing consciousness of the universe.

i think thats where christians have things a little mixed up (i was raised christian). they take things too literally, thinking god is some big man they'll meet when they die. and that somehow they have a personal relationship with him..

but i think when its said that "god loves you" or "jesus loves you", its not about a relationship in the human sense of the word. its simply because god is the collective of consciousness and you are one unit of that consciousness.

considering you're posting on a forum about magic mushrooms, i would have thought u'd know that god's presence can be felt anywhere. because god's presence is always there, right under your nose.
it just takes a different perspective to feel it.


I think a lot of us think that way, but in discussions you must be able to enter any concept of god and discuss its logic.
These discussions are not about what is true and what is not, they are about how well do different concepts hold under the knife of logic. Most discussions on this forum are about consistency, even though some people actually think all this on S/P is about finding truth. There are so many truths here, they all have fighters that will push arguments through tinies of holes.


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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: Cathedrals and Mass [Re: whiterasta]
    #3977377 -

whiterasta said:
Quote:
The Church must trick people into believing in his grandeur with 100-foot tall stained glass windows, massive pipe organs with booming, awe-inspiring sounds backed by huge choirs, stupefying gothic architecture and archaic rituals spoken in foreign tongues MCed by "special" men in unusual and decorative robes.



Massive ain't it?
WR :wexican:


But still, those buildings are architectual wonders and deserve respect in that field.


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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: Cathedrals and Mass [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #3978021 -

yea you're right OldWoodSpecter.

i wasn't trying to push my view of what god is, and i realize that i put my own spin on the post and it ends up being only about 10% relevant to the topic.

but my point was that feeling the presence of god depends on the person, not their location. i didnt realize that was the point i was trying to make until i read my first post over a few times. and i probably would not have been able to add it unless i thought about the things in the first post.

"the road of life is rocky, and you may stumble too
so while you're laughing at me, someone else is judging you"

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Re: Cathedrals and Mass [Re: Swami]
    #3978403 -

If these trappings cause a change in consciousness, then I see how "god" could come to the people that are in the worship house. You don't feel a sense of magesty when you enter a gigantic cathedral?


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Jackie Treehorn treats objects like women, man

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Re: Cathedrals and Mass [Re: SoopaX]
    #3978641 -

Hmmmm...I am Wiccan as the day is long - not that internet kind, the Initiated kind and still?

I resepct the Cathedrals because they are of our forefathers (and mothers! :wink: ) and I was not raised in any religious way at all but still, I enter the Cathedral here from time to time, light a candle and thank my ancestors for giving me the chance to be who I am today.

Also, there is a Closter not far from here, where one can go and listen to chanting. I like to do this because I believe that those women chanting are feeling something...the same thing I feel when I am in the Circle: Enlightenment.

Therefore, the chanting moves me and I enjoy it because they speak to my mind.

That it takes place within a Cathedral on the grounds of a Closter does not hinder or stop me from appreciating the feeling and splendour  of the chant and the knowledge that they seem to have found what so many seek. A Way. Not THE way, but A way which works for them.

To me, this is something worth appreciating.

:smile:
~Kimberly


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This is a whole new path. You cannot use your old map on this new path and if you try you'll only end up lost in the woods. Get a new map.

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Re: Cathedrals and Mass [Re: efrog]
    #3978886 -

I really like cathedrals... as cool buildings. If the religious decorations were removed from them, I'd probably go there alot more... just for the trippiness of it all. There is a giant pipe organ in the old catholic church downtown. I tried going there once for an organ performance celebrating the birthday of Bach, but the event must've been cancelled and the newspaper article was published anyway. I was really disappointed... I love monstrous pipe organs.

WTF were we talking about?


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: Cathedrals and Mass [Re: Swami]
    #3979391 -

There is a difference between the 'theologies' of the tent revivalist and the cathedral-buider (no one will EVER build a cathedral with hand-cut stone and vaulted arches again in THIS time line). Think of the edificice as one that would withstand the ravages of time just to protect the Bread and Wine which are the central symbols that encode ALL the theologies ever devised by the minds of men.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Cathedrals and Mass [Re: BoneMan]
    #3979427 -

BoneMan said:
but my point was that feeling the presence of god depends on the person, not their location.


Of course, if those folks in vatican actually took the bible and read it without being wiseguys about it, they would see that
all Jesus asked from people is to love and be good, and be clean and healthy, and have faith, that's all he ever asked.
Everything else is pure manipulation, or at least self-deception of the high priests of the church.


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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: Cathedrals and Mass [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #3979758 -

cathedrals big organs pastors with more diamonds than the whole cash money crew. it's all about penis envy.


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Wanting to be someone else is a waste of the person you are -Kurt Cobain
       



     
Hotter than the left sink handle.

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