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Offline3Mshroom
old hand

Registered: 04/03/00
Posts: 497
Last seen: 15 years, 6 months
An alternative scenario
    #397359 - 09/18/01 05:44 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

OK time to play devil's advocate here. Anyone consider that the US might have staged this? Before you all jump on me for this, I am talking hypothetically here and for the purpose of argument. If you think that I am wrong then show me the fault in my logic.
The economy is in a downturn. Who do people blame? The government. The government's usual tactic has been to distract the people with a conflict.
Bin Laden has been egg on the government's face for years. This gives the US government cart blanche to storm in and get him with little or no repercussions from the world polical arena.
Bin Laden has never denied his involvement in any of his attacks before. Why would he deny this one? This would be the feather in his cap and make him a legend with his people.
The WOD has failed and the government knows it so now they have to find another excuse to curtail the civil rights of it's citizens.
The democratic party has never been known to be overly friendly with people of colour. What ethnic group has been the target of the WOD? What ethnic group also makes up the largest group of muslims in the US?
If they invade and take Afghanistan, what is to stop them from pursuing radicals into Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and the other oil producing countries.
This is a win/win situation for the US government. They basically have world domination and no one to strong enough to stand in their way. How many of you can honestly say that you trust the US government implicitly?



Corruptissima republicae, plurimae leges
Illegitumus non carborundum


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Corruptissima republicae, plurimae leges
Illegitumus non carborundum


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OfflineSir Tokes-A-Lot
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Registered: 01/19/00
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Re: An alternative scenario [Re: 3Mshroom]
    #397370 - 09/18/01 06:12 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

i think they would have blown something a little less critical than the WTC and pentagon to make us angry, i mean they wouldent have killed 5000+ people, just 500 or less would have been a HUGE national tragedy a week ago... i mean look at how we reacted to oklahoma city.. that was just about 130 people.

God Bless America


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"If god liked midgets, he woulda made 'em come on stilts." - ChemicalMonkey


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"If god liked midgets, he woulda made 'em come on stilts."- ChemicalMonkey (The Early Years)


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Offline3Mshroom
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Registered: 04/03/00
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Re: An alternative scenario [Re: Sir Tokes-A-Lot]
    #397372 - 09/18/01 06:19 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Yeah but Oklahoma was done by an American(he got caught. If you remember, the government was strongly hinting that it could have been an attack by Bin Laden too)To truly stir things up you have to do things on a much larger scale. Would the US have declared war for the Oklahoma bombing if it had been Taliban? I don't think so. They would have tossed a few cruise missiles and called it even. Besides, there was a democrat in office then. Now it is the republicans turn.

Corruptissima republicae, plurimae leges
Illegitumus non carborundum

Edited by 3Mshroom on 09/18/01 05:29 AM.



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Corruptissima republicae, plurimae leges
Illegitumus non carborundum


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Invisiblepuscle
genius of love
Registered: 01/07/01
Posts: 4,539
Loc: NY
Re: An alternative scenario [Re: 3Mshroom]
    #397408 - 09/18/01 09:10 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

As long as we're just musing, I'd rather think Israel would gain more from such a crime.



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OfflineCrobih
rap-cord
Registered: 11/04/98
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Re: An alternative scenario [Re: puscle]
    #397485 - 09/18/01 01:57 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Jews did it.
Now let me be serious. If I was Osama I would deny this, because confirming that would mean that Afganistans must give him to US.. and if they do not do that, that woud mean they are agressors. If they are agressors, US could do anything to them and world opinion would give them right to.

afterall you are all good people sometimes
~Crobih


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OfflineSyngenor
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Registered: 09/17/00
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Re: An alternative scenario [Re: 3Mshroom]
    #397504 - 09/18/01 02:19 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

While i doubt that the govt had any role in the actual attack, it is quite possible that the Bush adminstration deliberately allowed it to happen; or else maybe they just gambled on a terrorist attack if they let security slip. FDR did something similar with Pearl Harbour, when he received the declaration of war from Japan and kept it under wraps so that the apparent preemptive strike would work to his political advantage.



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Offline3Mshroom
old hand

Registered: 04/03/00
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Last seen: 15 years, 6 months
Re: An alternative scenario [Re: puscle]
    #397546 - 09/18/01 03:53 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Interesting idea puscle. We should look at who has the most to gain in this whole mess. It is always easy to point the fingers at the most obvious suspects. 15 years ago we would have been saying that it was khaddafe(sp)
Crobih, hasn't Afghanistan already taken the offensive by making the official government position to be a jihad against the states? What difference would there be? If anything this has empowered those that hate the US by showing that they can be hurt.
Syngenor, if that was indeed the case then the US government would be guilty of complicity in this case. A good chess player knows when to sacrifice a few pawns to get a rook. In this case, just from a financial point of view, the WTC was a perfect target. If the US dollar drops a bit then the export market will pick up and more people will be buying domestic keeping more folks employed.
Damn I am feeling cynical lately...must be old age setting in LOL


Corruptissima republicae, plurimae leges
Illegitumus non carborundum


--------------------
Corruptissima republicae, plurimae leges
Illegitumus non carborundum


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: An alternative scenario [Re: 3Mshroom]
    #397569 - 09/18/01 04:51 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

I think it was Gore...if you look in the grassy knoll near the towers you can clearly see Gore with a remote control!!!!

THE DEMOCRATES DID IT :tongue:

Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick  *  there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....


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America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Offlinezetek
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Registered: 04/28/01
Posts: 210
Loc: United States
Last seen: 14 years, 10 months
Re: An alternative scenario [Re: Innvertigo]
    #397758 - 09/18/01 09:49 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

It was a conspiracy among Nader, Browne, Perot, & Larouche.



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Anonymous

Re: An alternative scenario [Re: puscle]
    #398926 - 09/20/01 08:12 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

How exactly would Isreal gain from this tragedy?




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OfflineCrobih
rap-cord
Registered: 11/04/98
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Re: An alternative scenario [Re: 3Mshroom]
    #399082 - 09/20/01 01:55 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Due to fact that osama did not admit this, and we all know his GREAT reputation in islamic world, if US didd shit to him, that would mean that he is victim of BAAAD US goverment.
That would mean that millions of those in islamic world who are not RADICAL would back him up.
Do not forget that there are allways more of nonfundametnalists than vice versa. So this thing could unite all of them.
If he admited this terrorist attack, he would not be backed up by nonfundamentalists (I am pointing on majority) so this would not be total jihad. Just as it used to be...ok a little bit harsher.

afterall you are all good people sometimes
~Crobih


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Invisiblepuscle
genius of love
Registered: 01/07/01
Posts: 4,539
Loc: NY
Re: An alternative scenario [Re: ]
    #399145 - 09/20/01 03:07 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Teo, the USA`s backing of Israel has become increasingly tenuous. Our own heads of state have expressed their frustration with Israel`s relentless war with the Palestines. Can you think of a better way to turn America against Islamic elements?



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Anonymous

Re: An alternative scenario [Re: puscle]
    #399843 - 09/21/01 11:57 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Palestinians are alone in the world, no one cares about them. They never have had a nation of their own. They have been under the control of other nations since the beginning of time. I am a jew and I am not a Zionist, I don't beilieve that Isreal is some divine gift from god for the jews alone. I think that part of the world would be a different place today, if the palestinians chose to go with a dual state back in 1948. They were offered a dual state, with Jerusalem being an international state. They refused!!!! I am also against Isreal's settling in increasingly larger and larger geography. I think the Palestinians should have land of their own and equal access to Jerusalem. Unfortunately, my belief is a minority.
My argument against your possible blaming of Isreal, is they already do what they want, and don't really care what the world says. They are also on a holy quest to regain the ancient boundaries of Isreal that once belonged to them. They believe that when this is accomplished the messiah will come. Palestinians are Muslims, Muslims defeated the jews long ago and stole the land from the Jews, right or wrong, that is how it happened. Many years later, the British occupied the region and decided to give the jews back Isreal, but only sections of it. Arabs were now living on the rest of it. Through weird turns of events, and Muslim desire to control all of their holy land, they joined forces to rid the region of Jews all together, THEY LOST THAT WAR, and lost Jerusalem, and continue to lose land. Isreal will not stop until they get back all their land, Muslims will not stop until they get all the land back. You have two religions fighting for the same holy land. This land is not just land, but the center of both religions. The muslims are outraged that Isreal exists, it makes their religion seem incomplete. Muhammed took those lands long ago, made them MUSLIM lands. The very fact that Jews control the holy land is like spitting in the face of the religion of Muhammed. It is as if it never happened. This is something that can never be resolved.
The two religions cannot coexist in the region, but their doctrine mandates it. I myself, as a jew, believe that no man can force the messiah to come back, by controling Isreal by force, is like spitting in the eyes of God. God will decide, and god alone the fate of the jews, and the return of the messiah. So I appose the Jewish State as a religous notion. I on the other hand do not oppose a State in which jews can live freely, without threat of persecution. This is the paradox. One leads to the other. If they are free to practice their religion, they will continue to settle the ancient lands, and mock the Muslims, not by intent, but by coincidence. Their messiah will not return until all of ancient Isreal is united under a Jewish religion. So they will continue to settle new lands, that were once theirs.
The counter is also true, Muslims want to control all the lands also. Not because they hate jews, but because their religion mandates it also. Jerusalem is the holy center of Muslim, by jews controlling it, it is not much of a holy place, is it. Christianity is also existing, in between. Which is counter to the other two religions.
So I am against Zionism, and the forceful settling of ancient lands in the quest for the messiah. I am also against the total removal of jews and christians from the region. I am also for Muslim prescence in the region. The only viable solution is a Dual state with international control of Jerusalem. But as history has told us this is impossible. All three religions are motivated by a belief system, and the three can not coexist in the holy land if they are following their doctrine. It is totally fucked!!! I feel shame. I am ashamed that Palestinians have no land of their own, I am against settling more lands by the Jews. I am equally ashamed that the Islamics hate Jews and christians. Can't we all just get along. I don't think it is possible, because the most orthodox interpretations of all three bibles, makes it impossible. Don't hate the Jews, they are doing what god told them too, so are the Muslims, and so are the christians. I feel less and less religous every day. I consider my self jewish by birth, not by practice. I will continue to consider myself jewish, because if this were Nazi Germany, I would have been killed regardless of my beliefs, and only because of my birth.
It is all fucked up. But back to the statement about Isreal, they do it anyways. They don't need to make sure that you or I or our government is pleased with them. They don't have to kill Americans to scare us into siding with them, we already do. No one in this government would ever go against ISREAL, our government for the most part considers them one of our very few allies in the region. Alot of people are just pissed about their continuous expansion at the expense of a people. And so they should be. But if the tide was turned, and the jews were the palestinians, don't ever believe for one second that the Muslims would not be doing the same thing. THEY ALREADY DID BEFORE. The jews were living in exile for 2000 years. Forcefully removed from the region at first, and then oppressed to the point of fleeing. Jews have found it very difficult to fit in where ever they go, in exile. Hence the British solution of a JEWISH STATE, following the Holocaust. It is a continuos cycle, and it has gone full circle. Jerusalem has gone from JEW to JEW. This is always gonna result in anger. In between JEW to JEW, Christianity and Muslim have come to be. And these are only the monotheistic religions. There are countless other expressions of Religion. I don't think we will ever be able to coexist in that region without force. Hence the Jewish Messiah will never come. But they are not gonna listen to me.



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Invisiblepuscle
genius of love
Registered: 01/07/01
Posts: 4,539
Loc: NY
Re: An alternative scenario [Re: ]
    #399880 - 09/21/01 12:45 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Teo, I believe we're on the same page. Please understand I was following 3M`s lead of playing devil`s advocate. I did, after all, offer my "musings". No, I don't believe Israel would ever orchestrate such an attack.
Nevertheless, Israel exists as a nation with no apparent interest in peace. (much as the USA exists now)
Our backing of Israel has always been about the Jewish vote, nothing more.



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OfflineElPrimo
journeyman
Registered: 09/29/01
Posts: 92
Last seen: 14 years, 11 months
Re: An alternative scenario [Re: puscle]
    #408784 - 09/30/01 01:44 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

I don't believe in a different scenario. But I am trying to understand why they hate us so much. Is this the history? ... .. after WWII we took control of all the land and set up these dictatorships where we would benefit enormously. We kicked people off of land they had lived in for over a thousand years and called it Israel.. We pushed thousands of families into slums and condemned them to immense poverty... millions die of disease and starvation while we live in the land of plenty.... We support Israel and corrupt regimes just so we can get cheap oil...

Is this why they hate us? I'm just asking... there has to be some reason.....



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InvisibleGabbaDj
BTH
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/01
Posts: 19,459
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Re: An alternative scenario [Re: 3Mshroom]
    #409521 - 09/30/01 09:27 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

No I dont think the government staged this one... Too many deaths and now the U.S. economy is in even more trouble and we will have a much harder time trying to get ourselvs out of this than just the possibility of a recession.

As for Ben Ladin... Hes just a scape goat. I watch the news as much as possible and they really have nothing at all linking any of this to him... I hear words like "possible connection" and "suspected dealings with" when it comes to these terrorists in their relationship with Ben Ladin. If he did have anything to do with it his involvement propably went no farther than him hearing about it and saying "yah sure sounds like a good plan"...

Americans need a patsy and since we have already been hearing of this guy Ben Ladin for a while now hes the likely person for the media to focus on. And most Americans dont know Jack about the Middle East and our involvement in it so we need something singular that we can pronounce and remember when having conversations about this because it is the every day conversations which keep the presidents high approval rateing and keeps public support of our military. Plus it makes us all feel better believing that our government has controll over the situation...

GabbaDj

Ok... Just to set the record straight....
I thought the cop was a prostitute.


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OfflineElPrimo
journeyman
Registered: 09/29/01
Posts: 92
Last seen: 14 years, 11 months
Re: An alternative scenario [Re: GabbaDj]
    #409664 - 10/01/01 12:01 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

No the gov didn't stage it ,, but Gw will find a way for his buddies to make money off of it...

What we need to do is require our automobiles to get better gas mileage and pollute less. We also could use a gov program to build high speed rail and help finance mass transportation in our cities...

That way we could get away from the dependency on the Middle East. All these programs would cost much less than what we are spending now. Of course they wouldn't benefit GWE's buddies...



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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
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Re: An alternative scenario [Re: ElPrimo]
    #410047 - 10/01/01 01:20 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

****No the gov didn't stage it ,, but Gw will find a way for his buddies to make money off of it... ****

BITTER, BITTER, BITTER

Relax, Relax, Relax.....it's just a little pin prick * there'll be no more AARRGGHHH!!!! but you may feel a little sick.....


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Offlinejonniedumbass
Stranger
Registered: 04/30/01
Posts: 19
Last seen: 15 years, 4 months
Re: An alternative scenario [Re: Innvertigo]
    #410707 - 10/02/01 12:55 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Who knows who did it?
From the limited coverage I get on my TV back in Australia (yes, we have TVs), I dont know if the government really has any idea who did this. But the public seem to want a scapegoat, and good ol GW likes to flap his head about for the cameras.
Afghanistan is one of the few countries that is flatly rejecting to be part of the UN and the New Global Economic Order- what an opportunity!!!
Or maybe Laden was just a lackey for some global bunch of weirdos hell bent on world domination.
I dont know.
Have a nice day everyone.




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Offlinejonniedumbass
Stranger
Registered: 04/30/01
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Last seen: 15 years, 4 months
Re: An alternative scenario [Re: jonniedumbass]
    #410721 - 10/02/01 01:09 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

www.counterpunch.org has some good stuff on politics.
About the planes again- with the mass surveilance etc of modern times, it strikes me as a little unusual that someone was able to pull off these acts (with Stanley knives)- it sounds a little more organised than the work of a men that leave their Arabic "how to hijack a plane" book in a hire car.



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