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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: if you had a tube in your mouth... [Re: browndustin]
    #3952071 -

That would be a better solution as life is sacred and it should be ended in a humane manner only after careful consideration. What a totally fucked up thing to happen to someone. My grandmother spent her last 6 months of life this way. She responded to nothing. The doctor said strokes had caused extensive brain damage and that she was no longer there. On the night before she died her condition had deteriorated and I went to see her. She then responded to my voice and squeezed my hand and opened her eyes. I knew at that minute that she was there and could understand me. It was not my imagination she was there and fully concious for about 15 minutes. She died hours later.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: if you had a tube in your mouth... [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3952107 -

I can certainly understand the points about starvation and dehydration. A little shot to speed it up would be most humaine IMHO, but I don't know that it's legal. I just hope that the situation finds resolution soon.

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Re: if you had a tube in your mouth... [Re: HedgeWych]
    #3952125 -

So, starving people is legal? Hmmm.... I have a room for rent in my basement...anyone need cheap housing?


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: if you had a tube in your mouth... [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3952164 -

Huehuecoyotl said:
So, starving people is legal? Hmmm.... I have a room for rent in my basement...anyone need cheap housing?


Well.. in this situation, as long as the family can agree.. yes... it is. Never said it was preferable though....

And I'd probably drive you nuts! lol

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Re: if you had a tube in your mouth... [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3952398 -

Huehuecoyotl said:
I have read about the situation and I know the woman is not being kept alive artificially...


The fact that she cant feed herself and has to be fed thru a tube in her stomach IS artificial.

If it werent for that artificial tube keeping her alive.......she would be dead already.


--------------------
Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future

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Re: if you had a tube in your mouth... [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3952932 -

Huehuecoyotl said:
I don't care. Starvation and dehydration is a inhuman and undignified death. I have read about the situation and I know the woman is not being kept alive artificially...unless you call food and water artificial means. Euthanasia should be quick and dignified. She is not on a trajectory that removing the tube will complete. Let me starve your ass and deprive you of water and we will watch your "trajectory". That is just piss poor morals.


A feeding tube stuck into her stomach is as artificial as you can get. What on earth are you talking about? Do you even know what artificial life support is? How is a feeding tube surgically implanted directly into one's stomach anymore natural than a respirator?

I am not brain-dead, vegetative state like that woman. I am a fully-functioning human being. She is not - is just a shell of a human that is artificially kept alive because people who love her cannot cope with her loss and must keep her alive for their own selfish interest. She is just a body at this point.

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Re: if you had a tube in your mouth... [Re: HedgeWych]
    #3955475 -

You missed my joke...think of the basement as a dungeon and you should get the picture.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: if you had a tube in your mouth... [Re: niteowl]
    #3955483 -

"The fact that she cant feed herself and has to be fed thru a tube in her stomach IS artificial."
What if you had sustained an injury that required this measure,(it happens by the way) but you were not brain damaged, should we allow you to starve because you cannot feed yourself?


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: if you had a tube in your mouth... [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3955782 -

if you weren't brain damaged, you could make your wishes known.

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Re: if you had a tube in your mouth... [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3955828 -

the most important thing is what the patient wants. since she's brain damaged and can't convey her wishes, we can only go on what her husband says - that she didn't want to be kept alive in such a state. should we assume that he's lying? what if she really doesn't want to live? isn't it cruel to keep her alive?

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Re: if you had a tube in your mouth... [Re: infidelGOD]
    #3955880 -

"isn't it cruel to keep her alive?"
Possibly, yes. Starvation and dehydration of a living being is wrong. It is illegal to do this to an animal...why is starving a person alright? Euthanasia should be humane.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: if you had a tube in your mouth... [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3955922 -

Quote:
Starvation and dehydration of a living being is wrong. It is illegal to do this to an animal...why is starving a person alright? Euthanasia should be humane.


how is something inhumane if the person subjected to the starvation cannot even feel pain nor is even aware of his or her situation or even her very existence? What part of "brain dead" do you have trouble understanding? She is not there - only the shell is left functioning. Her EKGs show she is without any brain activity.

Starving animals is against the law because they are alive and feel pain. If the animal was in a vegetative, brain dead state like this woman, I do not think anyone would care - if fact, they would probably support it.

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Re: if you had a tube in your mouth... [Re: Vvellum]
    #3955994 -

Everyone who sees such a living example of moral pornography (starvation and dehydration) can feel the pain... Such thinking is a perversion of humanity.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: if you had a tube in your mouth... [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3956049 -

i don't think she does feel pain, but as always for the sake (or even the possibility) of how other might feel,,,just give here alot of percodan,,,or better yet, if i was in her shoes, lots of dex..

"jcoke leaves and adds to his will, 'if brainddead like that bitch terri shivo or whatever her name is, fill me up with delsym, don't hesitate for 15 years to do it either! i'll make sure jesus or krishna or santa claus or who ever the hells up there makes a list for hell of all who try to keep me in that godforsaken state of being..'"


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hello, your name is life on earth
------------------------------------

"I traveled a long way seeking God, but when I finally gave up and turned back, there He was, within me! O Lalli! Now why do you wander like a beggar? Make some effort, and He will grant you a vision of Himself in the form of bliss in your heart." -the saint of the Kashmir Shaivism tradition: Lalli.

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Re: if you had a tube in your mouth... [Re: JCoke]
    #3956068 -

I agree.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: if you had a tube in your mouth... [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3956124 -

umm, it is against the law and medical standards/ethics to "kill" patients. all they can do is remove the artifical life support and let her go naturally. In this case, it is the feeding tube. there is no point whatsoever in providing her painkillers, because she cannot even feel pain (or any sensation) in the first place.

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Re: if you had a tube in your mouth... [Re: Vvellum]
    #3956151 -

I think the law sucks, so fuck that and any authority that supports it.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: if you had a tube in your mouth... [Re: Vvellum]
    #3956192 -

bi0 said:
umm, it is against the law and medical standards/ethics to "kill" patients. all they can do is remove the artifical life support and let her go naturally. In this case, it is the feeding tube. there is no point whatsoever in providing her painkillers, because she cannot even feel pain (or any sensation) in the first place.


so the only legal way to do this is starvation?? i don't think she feels pain either, in fact i'm pretty sure it's medical fact that she does'nt, but geez, i really think mercy killings should be legal..


--------------------
hello, your name is life on earth
------------------------------------

"I traveled a long way seeking God, but when I finally gave up and turned back, there He was, within me! O Lalli! Now why do you wander like a beggar? Make some effort, and He will grant you a vision of Himself in the form of bliss in your heart." -the saint of the Kashmir Shaivism tradition: Lalli.

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Re: if you had a tube in your mouth... [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3956724 -

Huehuecoyotl said:
"The fact that she cant feed herself and has to be fed thru a tube in her stomach IS artificial."
What if you had sustained an injury that required this measure,(it happens by the way) but you were not brain damaged, should we allow you to starve because you cannot feed yourself?



Chris Reeves (superman) was in that situation. He had to have a respirator in order to live. He was able to make his wishes known. His brain was still alive(unlike Terri's)

Starvation (unlike what some here believe) is not a painful death. People have starved themselves in the past to prove a political point (Gandhi)......you just get weak and run out of gas/energy....and die.

Nothing painful about it.


--------------------
Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future

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Re: if you had a tube in your mouth... [Re: niteowl]
    #3956825 -

Dehydration is one of the worst deaths. Read about accounts of people who nearly died that way. It is painful for others to watch as well. It is painful for me to even think about it. Life is sacred we must always err on the side of life.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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