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OfflineBasidiocarp
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R. Wayne's Peroxide Technique: Mold!
    #3799935 - 02/18/05 08:08 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Since I've been looking for ways to circumvent the size constraints of my All-American PC, I broke down and bought Rush Wayne's two books on peroxide techniques and non-sterile cultivation.  The ideas therein were intriguing, and I was excited to try them out.

For my first attempt, I made up two bags of alder wood pellet substrate supplemented with powdered milk (a peroxide-safe nitrogen supplement according to Wayne.)  I pasteurized with peroxide according to his instructions, and then spawned with rye colonized with Grifola frondosa (maitake) mycelium.  That was five days ago.  Here you can see the results as of today:

As you can see I'm getting quite a substantial bloom of green mold.  The mycelium seems healthy still, but I can almost guarantee it's going to be taken over by the mold (that one patch is already quite large).

Perhaps these peroxide methods are too good to be true for wood-based substrates.  Does anyone have any success stories using Wayne's pasteurization protocols?  Perhaps there's just no substitute for real sterilization...  :frown:


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: R. Wayne's Peroxide Technique: Mold! [Re: Basidiocarp]
    #3799995 - 02/18/05 08:19 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Try toasting the wood first.


Say, 400?F for an hour or two??


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OfflineBasidiocarp
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Re: R. Wayne's Peroxide Technique: Mold! [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #3800016 - 02/18/05 08:24 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

According to Wayne this is not needed because wood pellet fuel is already subjected to high heat when it is processed.  This effectively pasteurizes it and destroys any peroxidase enzymes.  But it is worth a shot, seeing as how my oven holds more than the dayum All American.  :smirk:


--------------------
"...if the mind is actually part of a continuum, a labyrinth that is connected not only to every other mind that exists or has existed, but to every atom, organism, and region in the vastness of space and time itself, the fact that it is able to occasionally make forays into the labyrinth and have transpersonal experiences no longer seems so strange."

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Re: R. Wayne's Peroxide Technique: Mold! [Re: Basidiocarp]
    #3800521 - 02/18/05 10:05 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

That substrate looks really wet to me. Perhaps it is just condensation creating that effect, but still...


One of the main things you need to pay attention to using non-sterile techniques like this is matching the environmental conditions to the species perfectly. I also suspect that additional air exchange during colonization and a slightly "dry" substrate would also be beneficial (a little below optimal water content).


And probably the most important things are making sure there are no peroxidase enzymes left in the substrate, and making sure no live mold is introduced. Personally I would try this TEK without supplementation. While yields would be lowered, I predict you would have less failures that way...


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OfflineBasidiocarp
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Re: R. Wayne's Peroxide Technique: Mold! [Re: ATWAR]
    #3801071 - 02/18/05 11:43 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

The condensation in the plenum and the space between the bag wall and the substrate give it an excessively wet look. However, I made sure that the moisture content of the substrate at makeup was 60% - 65%. (I even oven dried a sample of the wood pellets to get an accurate assessment of their water content.)

My strain of maitake has voraciously colonized these [sterilized] pellets before at the current temperature (70F), and so I don't think I'm having a problem with matching environmental conditions.

As for peroxidase, I can tell you that there was no fizzing that occured when I pastuerized the substrate. There was some bubbling when I spawned the bags, but I attributed this to mycelial peroxidase that had accumulated in the rye spawn, or to peroxidase released from ruptured mycelial cells.

If it comes down to eliminating nitrogen supplements in order to get this to work, I say forget it. Yields for many gourmets (especially maitake) would be absolutely dreadful(or non-existent) on plain sawdust. This Tek is probably best suited for aggressive, non-finicky species like oysters. But heck, many oysters will colonize un-pasteurized straw or paper and still fruit, so what's the point?

I would like to hear some success stories with Wayne's Tek, with some species other than Pleurotus.


--------------------
"...if the mind is actually part of a continuum, a labyrinth that is connected not only to every other mind that exists or has existed, but to every atom, organism, and region in the vastness of space and time itself, the fact that it is able to occasionally make forays into the labyrinth and have transpersonal experiences no longer seems so strange."

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Edited by Basidiocarp (02/18/05 11:47 PM)


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OfflineFluxburn
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Re: R. Wayne's Peroxide Technique: Mold! [Re: Basidiocarp]
    #3801449 - 02/19/05 12:40 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

dood, just buy a pressure cooker, there is no other way.


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OfflineBasidiocarp
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Re: R. Wayne's Peroxide Technique: Mold! [Re: Fluxburn]
    #3801495 - 02/19/05 12:45 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Fluxburn said:
dood, just buy a pressure cooker, there is no other way.




See my original post, dood. I have an All American autoclave, but it's not practical for sterilizing large numbers of sawdust bags.


--------------------
"...if the mind is actually part of a continuum, a labyrinth that is connected not only to every other mind that exists or has existed, but to every atom, organism, and region in the vastness of space and time itself, the fact that it is able to occasionally make forays into the labyrinth and have transpersonal experiences no longer seems so strange."

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InvisibleATWAR
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Re: R. Wayne's Peroxide Technique: Mold! [Re: Basidiocarp]
    #3802062 - 02/19/05 02:16 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I agree, this method seems best suited to oyster species. But, I question the technique in general, simply because I do not see it as a reliable production method or alternative to sterilizing. Peroxide is not the "miracle" additive as is commonly thought (and claimed in the manual). Peroxidated agar can still contaminate with molds and bacteria as most of us know, and wood is far harder to sterilize in general. This method is like the bleach or lime bath methods IMO. Not suited for all species as you mentioned...


I place it in the area of "questionable techniques".
I believe it can work, but there would be a higher failure rate.
Perhaps maybe your source of wood? I may try it with a Ganoderma.


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Invisiblearmedia
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Re: R. Wayne's Peroxide Technique: Mold! [Re: Basidiocarp]
    #3802904 - 02/19/05 12:18 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Basidiocarp -

I wouldn't give up on the peroxide tek so quickly (see an earlier thread for the early lowdown on NSC, for which the jury is still out). I think it is a substantial innovation, when used in conjunction with autoclaving/sterile teks, rather than in place of them.

I use peroxide in all my agar cultures (except for storage purposes, spore germinations, and the rare occasion that a species does not grow in its presence), and in my grain masters and spawn bags. Since I started using these methods, my failure rate has dropped significantly, and I feel more confident working in what would otherwise be sub-optimal conditions (i.e. an average kitchen.)

I still sterilize materials thoroughly, work in a flowhood, seal my cultures with parafilm, and try to keep my kitchen as clean as possible.

As for fruiting substrates, I must say that I still sterilize my bags, occasionally adding peroxide as extra protection. My one experience with Wayne's methods of peroxide pasteurization was a dud, but I have not repeated the experiment.

The problem with peroxide is that molds too can grow in its presence, if they are already established, or spores are in sufficiently high concentrations. Your bag could be one of the rare(r) occasions that peroxide was insufficient to keep the molds at bay.

Not that it is likely the culprit here, but it is best to make sure your cultures are acclimated to peroxide before you add them to substrates containing it, to ensure they grow out as quickly as possible.

- A


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Invisiblearmedia
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Re: R. Wayne's Peroxide Technique: Mold! [Re: armedia]
    #3802991 - 02/19/05 12:53 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I want to add that I have done the peroxide pasteurization of chopped straw, with hydrated lime, and it worked great. Last week I inoculated a bus tub of the stuff with Agaricus subrufescens, and its now fully colonized (mmm, smells like almonds.)

I tend to spawn on the heavy side, in a 1:2 or 1:5 ratio rather than typical higher rates, which may be one reason for my successes with these methods. Faster spawn runs mean less time for the molds to take hold. (Of course you do have to worry about self heating.)

- A


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Offlinechocbruce
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Re: R. Wayne's Peroxide Technique: Mold! [Re: armedia]
    #3804389 - 02/19/05 09:26 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

sry to hear. I don't know if I'd trust the process of the people who made the wood chips, but i understand your delimma, as my pc only will hold 4 pint jars...


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Offlinedebianlinux
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Re: R. Wayne's Peroxide Technique: Mold! [Re: chocbruce]
    #3827320 - 02/24/05 02:29 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

as a complete side note: using peroxide in conjunction with filtered water for humidifiers will totally eliminate blooms in the tank water and mineral scaling as well. Since incorpaorating peroxidated filtered water (around 12 months now) I have yet to have to clean my humidifer!


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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics >> Gourmet and Medicinal Mushrooms

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