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Offlineexclusive58
illegal alien

Registered: 04/16/04
Posts: 2,146
Last seen: 4 years, 3 months
The chaotic future of economical growth
    #3740504 - 02/06/05 01:47 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

In the olden days the economists reckoned that a sain society is a society in expansion. The growth rate was used as a thermometer to mesure the health of a structure: the Sate, the business, the wage-earner masses...

Yet it is impossible to always charge forward, head down, like a bull. The time has come to stop expansion before it overflows, before we get run over by it.

Economical expansion does not have any future. There only exists one lasting state of being: balance of forces. A sain society, nation or worker is a society, nation or worker that doesn't cut into the environment that surrounds them and isn't cut into by it eiher.

We shouldn't have to aim to conquer anymore, but on the contrary we should aim to integrate ourselves into nature and the cosmos. One word: harmony. Harmonious interpenetration between the exterior world and the interior world.

The day that human society will no longer experience a feeling of superiority or fear in front of a natural phenomenon, Man will be in homeostasis with its universe. It will know balance, stability. It will no longer project itself into the future. It won't engage itself in any far away objectives. It will simply live in the present.


(homeostasis: The ability or tendency of an organism or cell to maintain internal equilibrium by adjusting its physiological processes.)


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: The chaotic future of economical growth [Re: exclusive58]
    #3740552 - 02/06/05 02:11 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Unfortunately, it is a truism(at least in America) that people want stuff often to detriment of their fellow Man and their environment.

The U.S. federal government is faced with a real problem...it currently spends more money than it takes in AND people continually want the government to give them free stuff. If America has any hope of taking care of all of the people who are going to retire in the next twenty years or so, then economic growth is a must. Only through taxation of this economic growth can we pay for all of these social programs for old and poor people.

People clamour for free money and services and productive taxpayers are going to have to pay for it.


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Male
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
Re: The chaotic future of economical growth [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3740637 - 02/06/05 02:50 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

In regards to approaching and attempting harmony/balance with the cosmos and all that applied economically:

1. Man is a product of nature
2. Nature is filled with a highly competitive aspect (kill or be killed)
3. Man knows harmony like a poor man has money

-Nice to have a thought of mankind living in the land of preaches and cream with all the rabbits and all that shit ... but time to get over all this idealism.... Everything we do is competitive, economic forces are certainly no exception... to think otherwise would put everyone in a back-asswards system of trade and barter and by doing so i.e. creating a system on actual versus conceptualized worth is meaningless as it will ultimately stem growth, and prevent the productivity and potential through slowing down economic forces.

As bad as it is, a false system built on the potential of worth, (the current system in place regarding the exchange of currency - built on the basis of trust, no real value)is better then any alternative that currently exists.... their is a reason why we moved up from the gold standard as that was too restricitive on growth as it is.


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"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


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OfflineSWEDEN
Miracle of Science

Registered: 10/25/04
Posts: 2,577
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Re: The chaotic future of economical growth [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #3740731 - 02/06/05 03:15 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

So you believe that infinite growth is a viable alternative?


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Male
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
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Re: The chaotic future of economical growth [Re: SWEDEN]
    #3740754 - 02/06/05 03:21 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

by no means... their isn't truly a viable solution... but it's not as if we're the determinants of world economic affairs.

Just suggesting that it currently is working despite the shortfalls and criticisms it recieves... By all means, if you can show me a viable alternative that isn't based on something that will stem productivity (that isn't fully contrived in idealism), I'm all ears.


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"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


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OfflineSWEDEN
Miracle of Science

Registered: 10/25/04
Posts: 2,577
Loc: PNW
Last seen: 2 years, 11 months
Re: The chaotic future of economical growth [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #3740877 - 02/06/05 03:49 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

When you said that it currently works, you forgot to mention that all American wealth is now abstract and can be conjured up at will by the economic wizards over at Fed. Is it really a wise system, or one that works, if only a few individuals control most of the wealth? And then start a huge downward spiral of economic collapse as they send this country into a debt which it cannot repay? That the growing interest rate of the money our government owes to private industries is not a positive feedback loop, doomed to burn itself out? A system that works... for now.

We are capable of harnessing the sun's energy, an infinite source of heat and light in our lifetimes and for millions of generations of humans to come. Why have we not started to do this on a widespread scale? Each community should be saying, "Fuck the privatized energy corporations that have been screwing us over. We will build solar energy farms and take control of our own power generation." But suddenly if we no longer need petroleum, coal, or natural gas, all perishable resources, that leaves a lot of rich folks without a way to satiate their money addiction. So they put a lid on it.

My viable alternative would be to have each city in America become its own self-sustaining community that grows its own food and generates its own power, so we don't have to rely on power hungry pigs who are too busy swimming in their pools of gold coins to care about the rest of us. Money should flow like water to the people contributing to their own community, not hoarding all the power for themselves. If humans learn to work like this, like the cells in our bodies all work in unison to sustain our life, perhaps that would be a better system than the doomed one we have right now.


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Offlineexclusive58
illegal alien

Registered: 04/16/04
Posts: 2,146
Last seen: 4 years, 3 months
Re: The chaotic future of economical growth [Re: SWEDEN]
    #3741243 - 02/06/05 05:25 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Now you're talking! I see much potential in your words, i agree that solar power is the way to go, i hear that it is very expensive to install though. But hell, it probably wouldn't require a tenth of the cost of the war in Iraq to equip America with those darn solar panels.


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Offlineexclusive58
illegal alien

Registered: 04/16/04
Posts: 2,146
Last seen: 4 years, 3 months
Re: The chaotic future of economical growth [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3741266 - 02/06/05 05:31 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Unfortunately, it is a truism(at least in America) that people want stuff often to detriment of their fellow Man and their environment.





Indeed, sadly true this is. This is why my last desperate hope for humanity lies in a change of mentalities, a true revolution of the mind is what we really need. I don't know how likely this is to happen though, but i'm crossing my fingers, praying, and trying to spread the love...


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
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Re: The chaotic future of economical growth [Re: SWEDEN]
    #3741504 - 02/06/05 06:30 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

SWEDEN said:
When you said that it currently works, you forgot to mention that all American wealth is now abstract




What, in your opinion, would be a manifestation of non-abstract wealth? Gold? Can't eat it, it doesn't keep you warm or the rain off your head, you can't use it for transportation or sleep on it, etc. It's as abstract as paper or electronic currency. Now hog bellies, that's concrete. You can hold them and even eat them. Would that be an acceptable form of wealth for you? Is real estate real enough?

and can be conjured up at will by the economic wizards over at Fed.

Every change made by the Fed results in some people making money and some people losing money. No net change. I don't know of any fiscal alchemy going on over there.

Is it really a wise system, or one that works, if only a few individuals control most of the wealth?

This may be the case in Angola where the government owns everything but not here. Does real estate constitute wealth? A higher percentage of people own their own home than at any other time in history. Are you referring to the aforementioned abstract wealth? Is a stock certificate in Micro-soft too abstract to be "real" wealth? Because that is the kind of wealth that is held by the "FEW". Or are you referring to debt obligations of the federal government(Treasury Bills and municipal bonds and such), which I assume is another abstract form of wealth. First you try to assert that the wealth is illusory and then you bemoan, falsely, that it is mostly in the hands of the "FEW".

And then start a huge downward spiral of economic collapse as they send this country into a debt which it cannot repay?

By they, I assume you mean the mythical "FEW". But if all their wealth is tied up in abstract debt obligations of the government why would they want to send the country into a debt it cannot pay? That seems too stupid even for the "FEW"

That the growing interest rate of the money our government owes to private industries is not a positive feedback loop, doomed to burn itself out? A system that works... for now.

Interest rates have just lately started to rise in rather small increments after having spent several years at historic lows. I also don't think that it is private industries that hold most of the government paper. It is rather the "FEW" and big pension funds. As far as doom goes, well, I've heard this Pollyanna crap for 30 years and you know what? It never comes true. And the negativists generally don't do that well.

We are capable of harnessing the sun's energy, an infinite source of heat and light in our lifetimes and for millions of generations of humans to come.

No we are not yet capable of doing that. It is also doubtful that it will ever be possible in NY, or London or Dublin or San Francisco or Seattle. We certainly can't do it on trucks and cars and planes. Should we give up all of these things?

Why have we not started to do this on a widespread scale? Each community should be saying, "Fuck the privatized energy corporations that have been screwing us over. We will build solar energy farms and take control of our own power generation." But suddenly if we no longer need petroleum, coal, or natural gas, all perishable resources, that leaves a lot of rich folks without a way to satiate their money addiction. So they put a lid on it.

Once again, the technology does not yet exist.

My viable alternative would be to have each city in America become its own self-sustaining community that grows its own food and generates its own power,


And NYC will put these farms where?

so we don't have to rely on power hungry pigs who are too busy swimming in their pools of gold coins to care about the rest of us. Money should flow like water to the people contributing to their own community, not hoarding all the power for themselves. If humans learn to work like this, like the cells in our bodies all work in unison to sustain our life, perhaps that would be a better system than the doomed one we have right now.




The cells in our body do work pretty well together. But, they are all specialized. That is what makes a higher organism. What you seem to support for humanity as a whole is less than a jellyfish. Better system? I don't think so.


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,733
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Re: The chaotic future of economical growth [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3744343 - 02/07/05 07:51 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

People clamour for free money and services and productive taxpayers are going to have to pay for it.




Obviously welfare and social programs need to be paid for. But are they the sole reason for the need for economic growth? Obviously not.

Funny how so many people tend to forget this though....


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Always Smi2le


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InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: The chaotic future of economical growth [Re: GazzBut]
    #3744728 - 02/07/05 12:14 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
Quote:

People clamour for free money and services and productive taxpayers are going to have to pay for it.




Obviously welfare and social programs need to be paid for. But are they the sole reason for the need for economic growth? Obviously not.

Funny how so many people tend to forget this though....



Even if they do need to be paid for, they don't need to be constantly expanded(like what we are doing with Medicare). And SS, the biggest fraud of all of these, should get a proper burial.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: The chaotic future of economical growth [Re: GazzBut]
    #3745162 - 02/07/05 01:56 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)


Obviously welfare and social programs need to be paid for. But are they the sole reason for the need for economic growth? Obviously not.


With the massive amount of old people that will retire in America in the next 10 or so years and the relatively small amount of people who will be working during those years, the social welfare system will be very strained. Economic growth and prosperity is a great way to generate revenues to pay for all of that stuff.

Bah...like it matters anyway...the U.S. government will just borrow more money to pay for it all.


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