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Re: Hypocrite [Re: Armageddon]
    #3637855 -

I smell puppet..

I don't know how someone can say that anarchism and communism are the same, I don't see it and the definitions of them both contradict one another.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Friedman [Re: Phred]
    #3637857 -


>The Anarchists of the stripe "armageddon" endorses are >Collectivists.

Yes; all Anarchist Communists are collectivists.


>They subscribe to the oxymoron that private property is "theft" -- >ignoring the easily testable fact that private property is an >essential precondition to human survival.

No that is not a fact, that is your personal opinion. If you imagine a mother on an island with 100 children; a good mother would try to encourage all her children to help each other and to share resources; some might go fishing, some might farm, however if Bush or Blair were on the island they would encourage those who farm to declare their land to be private property and to sell food to their landless brothers and sisters; food is a precondition for human survival but private property among brothers and sisters is not. If you came to my home I might share some of my coffee, food, tobacco, weed etc with you but there would be limits to this since there are 7 billion people here, I cannot feed them all and I have to obtain food etc by buying and selling as a Capitalist and there are limits to this; however a good friend is someone that you can share what you have with; however a sharing person is almost universally considered to be a good / kind / loving person and a person who believes in private propertyism is clearly an evil selfish person like Bush, Blair and 99% of all Christians.


>They have convinced themselves that people voluntarily agreeing to >exchange goods to their mutual benefit are inevitably divided into >the "Oppressor" and "Oppressed" or "Exploiter" and "Exploited".

A child worker in a Nike factory or a child prostitute in Thailand does not voluntarily agree to exchange goods and labour; they are faced with a choice of poverty, sex slavery or selling their labour; that is slavery not the voluntary exchange of goods.

>It matters not that they quibble over the shades of gray >between "Socialist", "Marxist", "Communist" or whatever. Their >vision of the world has no place for the individual. All is the >Hive, the Tribe, the Clan, the Group, the Community, the Borg -- in >other words, the Collective.

Individuals have friends, family and a world of 7 billion people around them; we are social creature and we are individuals; it is the governmentalists who are anti-individualist; how many laws are there that have been written by State narco-terrorist collaborators telling you what you may and may not do and what is and what is not a good citizen; a good citizen is a person who is a State narco-terrorist collaborator and an evil citizen is one who resists such macro evil; governmentalism is anti-individualism; anti-governmentalism is pro-idividualism.

Let us say that you lived on a collective and that you grew shrooms for example; there would be no government to tell you what you can and cannot do. Many of you here live in fear of your governments and yet you defend governmentalism; you are defending your own demise.

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Re: Friedman [Re: Phred]
    #3637869 -

Quote:
All is the Hive, the Tribe, the Clan, the Group, the Community, the Borg -- in other words, the Collective.




How can one individual be more important than the collective when the collective is made up of many individuals...

Or do you actually deny the existence of the collective..


--------------------
Always Smi2le

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Re: Friedman [Re: Armageddon]
    #3637893 -

So Anarchist Communists believe in a world where there is no government, and everyone is good anyway even though no force exists to make them be good?


Meaning also that there would be no taxes, and no wars, no exploitation, and we would all have fairy wings growing out of our butts.

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Re: Friedman [Re: Armageddon]
    #3638074 -

in a world of sharing nothing would be for sale and there would be no money, no banks, no governments, no religions; there would only be the collectives.

how would you create a world of sharing?

people who want to give all of their possessions away are free to do so right now. they aren't doing it. how would you get them to?

would private property be illegal? would profit be prohibited? oh wait... there's no government, so how can it be illegal? do you see the problem here?

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Re: Friedman [Re: Armageddon]
    #3638086 -

let's say i take all of your food. then you get some more, and i take that. you get more, and you're just about to eat it, and then i take it. i strip you of your clothing and prevent you from drinking water.

how long do you think you could survive if i stripped you of all of your property?

one definition of property is that which you have a right to dispose of.

humans beings require property because we require that we have a right to dispose of some items. today it is 15 degrees out and the wind speed around 20 miles an hour where i live. the coat i am wearing is mine. my right to it is higher than anyone else's. it's my private property. it's not yours, it's not the "collective's". it's mine. this is a requirement for my survival. without the coat, i freeze.

Edited by mushmaster (01/17/05 10:30 AM)

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Re: Friedman [Re: GazzBut]
    #3640274 -

Which collective?


Do they have a name?


Where is their home office?

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Re: Friedman [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #3642181 -

your family = collective
your wider circle of friends = collective
the city you live in = collective
your religion = collective
the country you live in = collective

We live in collectives within collectives!


--------------------
Always Smi2le

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Re: Friedman [Re: Armageddon]
    #3642409 -

Quote:
No that is not a fact, that is your personal opinion. If you imagine a mother on an island with 100 children; a good mother would try to encourage all her children to help each other and to share resources; some might go fishing, some might farm, however if Bush or Blair were on the island they would encourage those who farm to declare their land to be private property and to sell food to their landless brothers and sisters; food is a precondition for human survival but private property among brothers and sisters is not. If you came to my home I might share some of my coffee, food, tobacco, weed etc with you but there would be limits to this since there are 7 billion people here, I cannot feed them all and I have to obtain food etc by buying and selling as a Capitalist and there are limits to this; however a good friend is someone that you can share what you have with; however a sharing person is almost universally considered to be a good / kind / loving person and a person who believes in private propertyism is clearly an evil selfish person like Bush, Blair and 99% of all Christians.



1. Punctuation is your friend.

2. You cannot share something with someone if it wasn't yours in the first place. You can only mutually partake.

Personally I believe in private property because I firmly believe the great majority of people on this planet are goddamned idiots, and I'll be damned before I let my front door open and hang a "FREE FOR ALL" sign out front.

If I make the determination that someone is an OK person, that's when I get generous.

I've no reason to help out everyone. I don't like everyone. I only help those I like. Hopefully that would create more people of the sort that I like.


--------------------
i finally got around to making a sig
revel in its glory and quake in fear at its might
grar.

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Re: Friedman [Re: GazzBut]
    #3642970 -

Do any of these collectives have the right to force any particular role upon you as a member of this collective?

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Re: Friedman [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #3643416 -


Lucifer
www.luciferia.tv
For apocalyptic war and the global holocaust of all governmentalists and religionists.

God is evil. War is Divine (God-like).
Property is Theft. Anarchy is Order.


'I am an Anarchist and am trying to work out the ideal society, which I believe will be Communist in Economics, but will leave full and free scope for the development of the Individual.'
Interview 1897., Kropotkin

_______________________

Lucifer responds to the various private propertyists:

Let me make a number of points.

What is Christianity / Capitalism and what is Communism?


Private Property.

We live in a world where 10% of the people (mostly the 'Christian' world since they predominately self define themselves as Christians) live in the 'First World' and by this I refer to the 600 million or so who live in Europe and America; in addition to this there are a few other isolated pockets of wealth (i.e. Japan, Australia, Saudi Arabia etc.). In London a third of the population are welfare recipients even if they are 'employed' (i.e. they would have the same amount of money as an unemployed person) and there are 20,000 homeless people, however these people live surrounded by wealth and by supermarkets full of food and produce (i.e. flowers) much of which is imported into the First World from the Third World where you will find most or almost all of the 50% of world population who are malnourished reside.

There is more than enough land and resources for all 7 billion to share and there should be no food problem; after all with hydroponics we could feed the world from the land space of the state of Texas alone; we know this but the world is not like that; that is not the priority of the most developed countries. We all know that there should be no food shortages globally and that there is abundant land, but yet this situation exists. What is to be done. Shall we simply give all our money to the poor? Even the Christian demons do not do this and this is the command of their deity (who was a Jewish anti-propertyist). Shall we merely condemn the rich Christians to the tortures of Hell? This was the strategy of Jesus / Jeshua and it did not work; today the Christians 'are' the rich of the First World who eat off the labour slavery of the poor world; their churches and supermarkets are full of imported food and flowers from the Third World and they clearly believe that the rich go to Heaven and that the poor should be bombed, raped, tortured and murdered by the Anglo American Zionist narco-terrorist military; Christianity and other religions offer no solution to the problems of world poverty; Christianity in fact 'is' a form of private propertyism which seeks to convince others that they can still be private propertyists and go to Heaven since a Jewish anti-propertyist will save them in the afterlife; even if they collaborate with the rich or are rich and have yet to renounce private propertyism.

The problem is the evil of private property. In Britain despite the problem of homelessness among the proletariat there is not a single are of land on this island that one could start a collective on that some private propertyist would not claim for themselves; every beach, every mountaintop and every forest is under the watchful gaze of local governmentalists and such governmentalists are armed and militant; any agricultural collective that sprung up on unused land would be subjected to bulldozing and to harrassment by the heroin stained narco-terrorist police. Add to this the Capitalist dream which is the abundance of Mammon; the worship of the God of consumerism and money; a person in London may have 10 pairs of shoes and 10 shirts and as many cars and TV's and consumer goods as they can buy with Capitalist coin; the entire population of the world cannot live like that; 140,000 children die each week due to usuryist imposed poverty and nobody gives a fuck and their supermarkets are still full and their churches full of flowers (a waste of agricultural land); this is all the price of private property.

Naked and unashamed. Propertyless Eden. Sexual Paradise.

According to the ancient legends we were once naked and unashamed and could eat of any fruit in the garden (eating a fruit is a Hebraic metaphor for sex); shame is associated with the religionist vermin as is the wearing of clothing; we don't need clothes; we don't need an abundance of plastice trinkets from Wallmart produced by labour slaves in the Third World; we don't need labour slavery, prostitution, money etc; and we don't need to live in the colder climates.

The solution to this is a world without private property; a world of collectivism where a minimum of labour would be used to grow food.

'Why give you thought for raiment..consider the lilies of the air, etc. etc..... Have one robe, no shoes, carry no purse nor coin...Give all that you have to the poor..'

Those were the words and edicts of a Jewish anti-propertyist whom most of the rich Christian world beleives were the words and edicts of one of the three Christian gods; however as a pagan and an evangelical anti-Christian, I reject this view of having 'one robe;' one robe is simply unnecessary, it gets in the way of sex and one would have divert ones' energy from food production (about an hour a week) to cotton production; further wearing one robe implies that one is ashamed (i.e. unclean / impure / unsanitary / insane) and that one has been indoctrinated / tempted by the Religious parasites; i.e., the priesthood. In the context of the Torah which was the Egyptian slave revolution against the Egyptian mystery cultists, a 'Serpent' signified the Egyptian priests / aristocracy / mystery religion; such is the nature of those brood of Vipers who are the religionists today; they are full of shame and are unlikely ever to repent of the evils of private propertyism and religion.

Private Property is the root of all evil and its expression is the twin evils of government and religion.

We all want to eat, sleep, socialise, get naked, get laid, get stoned, reproduce and die etc; however this has fuck all to do with private property and this will continue on after the inevitble and eventual global holocaust of all religionists and governmentalists; however since the religionist and governmentalist vermin are militant and have apocalyptic weapons; they must be fought with greater miltancy and also with apocalyptic weapons; the private propertyists will never give up without a fight; their total global holocaust is the only way forward; there is no private property; there are only private propertyists; and when such useless eaters are eradicated from the face of the earth on the Day of Judgement (the Final Revolutionary War) there shall be no private property.

This is not about convincing the private propertyists to repent; they shall not repent and they are not expected to. War is war and in war one executes one enemies; Anarchist Communism as far as I am concerned is about a Final Solution more brutal than Hitler ever dreamed of; if one is a believer in private propertyism one is unworthy of life. If it should be necessarry to eradicate the majority of the world's population in order that the children of the future can live in a world without governmentalists or religionists (i.e. the private propertyists) then that is morally justifiable and that is what I seek to invoke and evoke and that would be the 'Day of Judgement (the 'mentis' or mind of Judah) as far as I am concerned.

That is my position on private propertyists, governmentalists and religionists. No mercy or quarter must be shown to such useless eaters on the Day of Judgement.

Lucifer
www.luciferia.tv
Execute Bush, Blair and Sharon; Nuke London, Washington and Tel Aviv.
The 1000 Year Agricultural Revolution.
The 7th Revolution.



'Either the State forever, crushing individual and local life, taking over in all fields of human activity, bringing with it its wars and its domestic struggles for power, its palace revolutions which only replace one tyrant with another.....Or the destruction of all states and new life starting again in thousands of centres on the principle that the lively initiative of the individual and groups of that Free Arrangement The choice lies with you'.. Kropotkin, 'Conquest of Bread'

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Re: Friedman [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #3643883 -

Quote:
Do any of these collectives have the right to force any particular role upon you as a member of this collective?




None of them do...if you think about it an individual is free to leave any of these collectives whenever they like, that id not to say they can leave but if they cant it is only their own mind that is stopping them from leaving if they really want to!

Obviously that might not be true if you dont live in a western democracy!


--------------------
Always Smi2le

Edited by GazzBut (01/18/05 03:08 PM)

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Anarchos [Re: GazzBut]
    #3644322 -

Lucifer
www.luciferia.tv


>Do any of these collectives have the right to force any particular >role upon you as a member of this collective?

I think that if you want two good practical example of collectives you need to look at A: the several thousand eco-villages that exist within Capitalism and B: the Kibbutz in occupied Palestine.

From a moral point of view we might object to Israeli narco-terrorism, their genocidal policy towards the Palestinians, and the fact that Sharon is a mass murderer who is morally no different to Hitler by my Judgement and the fact that the Israeli government (itself a terrorist state) collaborates with other state terrorists such as the British and the Americans, etc and that their state has been financed by the world's major Kabbalist Usuryists (Usury - i.e. the lending of anything at profit - is not lawful in Judaism) such as the Rothschild narco-terrorists etc. However these are moral (the personal discernment of good and evil) issues not scientific issues; if we look at the matter scientifically the Israelis have built farms in the middle of deserts (though they deprive the Palestinians of water) and their agricultural and technological collectives have been successful. One Kibbutz manufactures arms and another Kibbutz grows food; individuals living on the Kibbutz share certain common property such as vehicles and they have a small allowance (pocket money) and there is economic equality among the members of the collective in this sense; there is no rich and poor; they live as brothers and sisters and they require no police force to stop them raping and murdering each other since they all grow up together, they all know each other well and crime is almost non existent. The Eco-villages being totally independent are all quite different but there are similarities with the Kibbutz. For most of the world's population who are the 90% who live outside the First World, and especially the 50% who are malnourished and especially the third of the world's population who are under 16, the idea of never having to pay rent and never being hungry and growing up in a family atmosphere etc., would probably be a vision of paradise to them.

To answer the question of whether anyone on the collective would 'force' you to do anything, I think that you need to consider to two practical examples above, although I concede that neither may represent the ideal. Let us say that you grew up in such a collective from birth. Would your mother ever force you to do anything? Of course she would. Mothers make demands on their children; they want what is best for them and want them to behave in a certain manner and they want them to be able to contribute to the community; not to be a parasite. That would not change in the future world. Would other members of the community force you to work? If you consider the examples of the Kibbutz and the Eco-villages, I cannot imagine a person who simply refused to do any form of work and yet demanded food; of course they who are sick and they who are elderly and they who are children would be an exception to that, but a society which does not look after the sick, the elderly and the children is clearly not a collective and has fuck all to do with Communism. Since most of you here are used to having to grow certain items if you want to eat them, we could compare this matter to a person who wanted to use shrooms but who refused to grow them, or to collect them or to buy them; nobody is forcing you to grow shrooms but mother nature is telling you that if you do not grow them or pick them that you cannot eat them.

>None of them do...if you think about it an individual is free to >leave any of these collectives whenever they like,

Yes of course, but in Occupied Palestine they say that when 10 people leave the Kibbutz, 11 will return; once you have grown up in such an environment from birth; Capitalism is a hard path to follow.

Bear in mind also that Lenin and Trotsky were Jews and that many of the Bolshevik Revolutionaries could not be understood by the Russians since they spoke only English and Yiddish and had been shipped in from New York and other countries, and that the Revolution was financed by millions of dollars from the Rothschild banking family who later went on to finance the state of Israel and built the Parliament (Knesset). Stalin put an end to this Judaic revolution of course and the by the end of World War two many of the early Kibbutzists were Russsian Communists who despised Stalin and sought to build their Communist / collectivist paradise in Palestine. Judaism and Communism are thus entwined; this is the position of the Nazis and this is also my position as a Communist. If one reads the gospels of Jeshua (Jesus - an object of idolatry to the private propertyists Capitalists / religionists) from a Judaic / slave revolution perspective it is clear that he too was a proto-Communist (sharer) who took the side of the oppressed people (the poorest) against the rich and the religious; as far as I am concerned, slave revolution / Communism from Moses to the prophets to Jesua to Marx to Lenin and to myself and my contemporaries 'is' Judaism; and that is why I am an evangelical anti-Christian and why I call for the global holocaust of all Christians; they are not sharers (Communists); they are private propertyists and idolaters who collaborate with the rich and with the priesthood and with narco-terrorist scum such as Bush, Blair and the defenders of the British Crown. Idolatry such as that which the Christians and their Kabbalist masters practice was, is and always will be an executable offense, and that is the issue of 'Judgement Day' and the Final War between the righteous (the Communists) of the 12 tribes of Israel against the rich and the religious; as it was in the days of Moses, the prophets and Jeshua, so it is today. After the final apocalyptic war, one shall be taken and one left behind; the rich and the religious shall be cast into the microwaves of the Final Holocaust and the poor shall inherit the earth; that is what I believe and what I live for and what I await in the future world and that is what I seek to offer a moral justification for; the Christian vermin and their Masonic (Egyptian cult) masters cannot be expected to repent of their evil religions; mass executions are the only way forward.

The conditions for the revolution will appear but not without a global war and that is what I seek to incite and long have I sought to incite the Muslims to war against the Christian parasites and their Masonic / Usuryist / governmentalist masters and vice versa; let them fight; war is my mandate; war, revolution and mass executions.


>that id not to say they can leave but if they cant it is only their >own mind that is stopping them from leaving if they really want to!

If there is still one Capitalist or Religionist nation left alive on the earth it would be duty of the rest of the population to hunt such vermin down and eradicte them; there cannot be a Communist world if there exists even one Capitalist nation; so obviously in the future world children would not have the choice of living in Capitalism or in a collective.

>Obviously that might not be true if you dont live in a western >democracy!

What is democracy and what is republicanism.

1: Democracy

Democracy (Gr demos: the people) is a Greek system where all the citizens gather to vote and they essentially have a people's government (i.e., themselves) and they decide all major issues together. People would debate the issues and at the end of the debate each citizen would have one shard of pottery and they would place this shard into one of two pots; one pot for 'Yes' and one pot for 'No.'

2: Republicanism.

Republicanism is a system where a group of senators (rather than a monarchist or a tyrant) meet together and vote; usually these senators will be among the richest citizens; this was as it was in certain Roman peroids and this was the situation in the State Capitalist Soviet Union.

3: An elected Republic.

This is a modern system where the people elect usually one of two Capitalist narco-terrorist candidates who are given millions of dollars by major capitalist corporations, banks etc., and who are then indebted to their sponsors.

A Republic or an elected Republic is not a Democracy but a Republic; when Bush and Blair speak of 'Freedom and Democracy' this is just Orwellian Newspeak (the redefinition of language to suit the ruling elite). In Lewis Carrol's Alice in Wonderland, Alice meets the king and the king uses the English language but he has his own private and personal definitions; one could redefine the term 'black' to mean 'blue' and then say 'the sun is very blue today.'

George Bush is not a democrat and neither are the Democratic Party members in the US; they are all Republicans; to refer to them as democrats is just the king in Carrol's Alice calling the sun black and the sky yellow.

Lucifer
www.luciferia.tv

Edited by Armageddon (01/18/05 04:46 PM)

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