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OfflineMaxwellSmart
Enemy of State


Registered: 10/27/13
Posts: 113
Last seen: 9 years, 8 months
Fellow Anarchists? * 1
    #19076758 - 11/02/13 07:42 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Anyone else here see the state as an extortion racket or is it just me?

Taxation = Theft FTW!!!


--------------------
"The cost of sanity, in this society, is a certain level of alienation." -Terence McKenna.


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OfflineMush4Brains
LOOL HACKED!!!

Registered: 07/31/13
Posts: 4,419
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: MaxwellSmart]
    #19076771 - 11/02/13 07:46 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

:facepalm:

Anarchism is for deluded 15 year olds.  If you want anarchy, you can go live in many shithole 3rd world countries if you would like.


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: Mush4Brains] * 1
    #19076829 - 11/02/13 07:55 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Mush4Brains said:
:facepalm:

Anarchism is for deluded 15 year olds.  If you want anarchy, you can go live in many shithole 3rd world countries if you would like.



Holy shit.  We agree on something


--------------------


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OfflineMaxwellSmart
Enemy of State


Registered: 10/27/13
Posts: 113
Last seen: 9 years, 8 months
Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: Mush4Brains] * 2
    #19076919 - 11/02/13 08:14 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Mush4Brains said:
:facepalm:

Anarchism is for deluded 15 year olds.  If you want anarchy, you can go live in many shithole 3rd world countries if you would like.



I wish I a dollar for every time I've heard something like that.


--------------------
"The cost of sanity, in this society, is a certain level of alienation." -Terence McKenna.


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OfflineEddeee
Observer/messenger
Male User Gallery


Registered: 10/06/12
Posts: 933
Loc: under the pacific ocean o...
Last seen: 10 years, 11 days
Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: MaxwellSmart]
    #19076934 - 11/02/13 08:17 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

True Anarchy is having complete mutual respect and love for all your fellow human beings. But if you fuck me over I fuck you over worse


--------------------
Don't read books study life then write books
we are nothing but atoms trying to figure out what atoms are.



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OfflineMaxwellSmart
Enemy of State


Registered: 10/27/13
Posts: 113
Last seen: 9 years, 8 months
Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: Eddeee]
    #19076950 - 11/02/13 08:23 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Eddeee said:
True Anarchy is having complete mutual respect and love for all your fellow human beings. But if you fuck me over I fuck you over worse



YES!!


--------------------
"The cost of sanity, in this society, is a certain level of alienation." -Terence McKenna.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
OTD God-King
 User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 65,503
Loc: Uncanny Valley
Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: MaxwellSmart] * 1
    #19076963 - 11/02/13 08:27 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

MaxwellSmart said:

I wish I a dollar for every time I've heard something like that.



What the fuck would an anarchist want money for?


--------------------
Censoring opposing views since 2014.

Ask an Attorney

Fuck the Amish


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OfflineMaxwellSmart
Enemy of State


Registered: 10/27/13
Posts: 113
Last seen: 9 years, 8 months
Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #19076995 - 11/02/13 08:37 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

MaxwellSmart said:

I wish I a dollar for every time I've heard something like that.



What the fuck would an anarchist want money for?



To buy shit.


--------------------
"The cost of sanity, in this society, is a certain level of alienation." -Terence McKenna.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
OTD God-King
 User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 65,503
Loc: Uncanny Valley
Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: MaxwellSmart]
    #19077003 - 11/02/13 08:39 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Pretty hypocritical, brah.


--------------------
Censoring opposing views since 2014.

Ask an Attorney

Fuck the Amish


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OfflineMaxwellSmart
Enemy of State


Registered: 10/27/13
Posts: 113
Last seen: 9 years, 8 months
Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: Enlil]
    #19077043 - 11/02/13 08:49 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

In what way?


--------------------
"The cost of sanity, in this society, is a certain level of alienation." -Terence McKenna.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
OTD God-King
 User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 65,503
Loc: Uncanny Valley
Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: MaxwellSmart]
    #19077056 - 11/02/13 08:52 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Never you mind, kid....you'll figure it out...or not.


--------------------
Censoring opposing views since 2014.

Ask an Attorney

Fuck the Amish


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OfflineEddeee
Observer/messenger
Male User Gallery


Registered: 10/06/12
Posts: 933
Loc: under the pacific ocean o...
Last seen: 10 years, 11 days
Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: Enlil]
    #19077130 - 11/02/13 09:10 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

MaxwellSmart said:

I wish I a dollar for every time I've heard something like that.



What the fuck would an anarchist want money for?



To light my cigars  and wipe my ass


--------------------
Don't read books study life then write books
we are nothing but atoms trying to figure out what atoms are.



Edited by Eddeee (11/02/13 09:18 PM)


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InvisibleHalfLight
.
I'm a teapot


Registered: 06/03/13
Posts: 2,322
Loc: Black Flag
Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: Enlil]
    #19077757 - 11/02/13 11:23 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

MaxwellSmart said:

I wish I a dollar for every time I've heard something like that.



What the fuck would an anarchist want money for?




To use in a current system which provides rewards for currency (I mean the money/noun, not the currency the state of being current/adjective).


Anyways, I'm pretty sure we all know that acclaimed beliefs do not often transfer into actions, or probably more accurate would be to say that acclaimed beliefs often notactual beliefs.
You think that anyone actually wants anarchy? No. We all just want to push our desires onto one another for our own benefit. Hence, government.

But yes, I am a theoretical anarchist. I say theoretical because it wouldn't work, and because I don't actually want it to work. I desire the goods of other human beings just as everyone else. This is also why communism wouldn't work. Everyone at heart is a capitalist except for those without goods to trade with others. This is why the poor are acclaimed marxists (because they don't have possessions to trade) and why the rich are acclaimed capitalists. If given significant possessions, any communist would realize, "Hey, other people value my possessions enough for me to extort something from them!"

Everyone believes in the system that it benefits them most to believe in, and everyone acts according to systems which benefit them most to act on.

I say that I am a theoretical anarchist because the above would prevent ACTUAL anarchy. I really just want people to stay out of my fucking business. I'm a person whom other people have imposed their will on, however, I also want to benefit from other people's existence, which is impossible if they can't benefit off of mine. Thus, anarchy isn't truly what I want, despite my own claims.

Taxation is not theft, it's paid protection of your life and property. Unfortunately, our federal government does an absolute shit job off of this for most people, only the impossibly rich.


--------------------
dead man walking


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Offlinepsilynut
aka Patchraper

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 1,244
Last seen: 6 years, 9 months
Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: HalfLight]
    #19078022 - 11/03/13 12:09 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Taxation is not theft, it's paid protection of your life and property. Unfortunately, our federal government does an absolute shit job off of this for most people, only the impossibly rich.



   
  Its a little more than that ......




If you don't like paying taxes . . .

- Don't drive on paved streets or highways.

- Don't call 911.

- Don't flush your toilet.

- Don't bring your garbage to the curb.

- Don't fly in an airplane that uses air-traffic controllers.

- Don't use the court system.

- Don't call the police when you get robbed.

- Don't use the US Post Office, send all your letters via FedEx or UPS.

- Don't ask for a farm subsidy for not growing crops.

- Don't ask for a taxpayer subsidy to do business in a city or state.

- Don't buy a sports franchise and ask the taxpayers to build your stadium.

- Don't send your children to public schools.

- Don't attend a state university.

- Don't expect a social security payment.

- Don't let Medicare pay your bills if you are over 65 or disabled.

- Don't look for a government contract to bolster your defense industry business.

- Don't look for a government.

- Don't look for a lucrative government consultant contract.

- Don't run for political office where your salary is paid for by the taxpayers.

- Don't accept government research findings that subsidize research for your industry.

- Don't be an airline and expect the government to bail you out.

- Don't be a car company and expect the government to bail you out.

- Don't be a steel company and expect the government to bail you out.

- Don't be a company that pollutes and expect the taxpayer to bail you out.

- Don't climb to the top of the Washington Monument, which is maintained at taxpayer expense.

- Don't make use of police services.

- Don't be rescued by fire department paramedic team.

- Don't call the fire department.

- Don't expect federal assistance if a natural disaster destroys your home or business.

- Don't expect the military to defend our country.

- Don't visit national parks or hike in national forests.

- Don't eat USDA inspected meat, cheese, eggs or produce.

- Don't take any medications tested and approved by the FDA.

- Don't drink, bath or otherwise use the water from municipal water systems.

- Don't look at or relay a weather report.

- Don't look at a NASA generated picture.

- Don't expect a unit of measure like a gallon of gas to be a full gallon.

- Don't expect an elevator to work correctly or not fall.

- Don't expect a red light to work.

- Don't be the Minority Senate Leader Named Trent Lott and expect American taxpayers to subsidize the building of private industry cruiseliner ships in your home state.

- Don't accept government money to help develop a product which you then personally patent or copyright and sell for your own profit.

- Don't use the services of a doctor who is licensed through the state.

- Don't expect research into medical problems such as cancer, heart disease, diabetes, aging, prostrate, menopause, etc.

- Don't use the public library.

- Don't go to a state university affiliated hospital.

- Don't go to a state university.

- Don't watch state college sports.

- Don't apply for government grants.

- Don't use your state's convention centers.

- Don't go to a state, city or municipal-run airport.

- Don't ask for rural electrification.

- Don't ask for FEC regulations that protect us from crooked financial planners.

- Don't ask to keep the airwaves free so your right-wing psycho radio talk show host can lie to you.

- Don't ask for a business loan from the small business administration.

- Don't ask to use the G.I. bill to go to college.

- Don't allow Al Gore to sponsor legislation to turn a military computer network (DARPANet/ARPANet) into the public-accessed "Internet."

- Don't drive a car that benefits from government safety regulations.

- Don't use electricity generated by TVA or some government-owned and maintained dam or facility.

- Don't use currency printed by the US Treasury.

- Don't use a bank or credit union that insures your deposits through the FDIC.

- Don't buy or build a house that requires the efforts of county deed offices or needs building permits and inspections.

- Don't get married, have children or die and expect the government to keep track of all the certificates.

- Don't expect the government to keep an eye on cemeteries, crematories and funeral homes so you won't get dug up and thrown in a swamp. And ask George Bush why he lied about his involvement with a company that did just that.

- Don't run for an elected office, because the local, state and federal election commissions could be involved.

- Don't go to a beach kept clean by the state.

- Don't use public transportation.

- Don't visit public museums.

- Don't go hunting, fishing, or camping on government property.

- Don't cross a bridge.

- Don't use truckstops or public restrooms.

June 24, 2002 Updates

- Don't expect the government to protect the copyright for the works you create.

- Don't move to any other developed nation, because the taxes are higher in all
the others, except South Africa.

- Don't expect your tap water to be clean and germ free.

- Don't expect there to be much wildlife left other than rats.

- Don't use wood or eat meat grown on Forest Service or BLM land.

- Don't eat any food transported on roads.

- Don't eat any vegetables in winter, 'cause they're mostly grown with "reclaimed" water.

- Don't expect any workplace safety standards, labor laws, or minimum wage.

- Don't use any gasoline, oil, or natural gas that was discovered by the USGS.

- Don't live in New Orleans, Sacramento or any other city protected by a levee.

- Don't expect zoning laws.

- Don't expect clean air, clean water, clean soil, etc.

- Don't expect highway signs.

- Don't expect laws against murder, theft, etc. (the govt. DEFINES crime).

- Don't expect to OWN anything, like your house, car, etc. (the govt. keeps track
of titles).

- Don't expect anyone to plow your roads when it snows or sweep them when they're dirty.

- Don't expect the government to regulate industries that have monopolies and use that power to raise your rates for reduced service and product quality.

- Don't expect the government to keep gasoline rates low, compared to the rest of the world.

- Don't expect convicted criminals to be in prison and off your street.

- Don't expect the local government to condemn private property at below market rates so that your major league baseball franchise can build a stadium on the land and make millions of dollars in profit while leaving the taxpayers to foot the bill when the courts order the government to pay the property owners a fair price.

July 26, 2002 Updates

- Don't expect to receive a cheap land lease on Federal lands, then mine or cut the forest for your profit with no repayment to the landlord (we the people).

- Don't expect to have uniform building codes.

- Don't expect to go to buildings and high rises that have been reviewed and inspected during construction to ensure it was built to current building codes.

- Don't expect to eat in restaurants that have been inspected to ensure cleanliness and the safe preparation of food.

- Don't expect your children to be able to ride the bus to school.

- Don't try to adopt a child through your county or state government.

- Don't expect the state or county to pay foster parents to take care of the children left abandoned or orphaned.

- Don't expect the state or county to investigate and/or remove children from neglectful or abusive homes.

- Don't visit the Smithsonian.

- Don't write any material to be published and copyright it.

- Don't go to your book store and try to find a book by its ISBN number.

- Don't expect the government to stop the auto companies from building SUVs that roll over and kill your wife and kids.

- Don't expect the court to appoint a taxpayer-paid attorney to represent you (or your child) when you are accused of a crime.

- Don't call or go to the US Embassy in a foreign country when you get in trouble.

- Don't get a passport or try to get out of the US without a Passport.

- Don't expect to enjoy the benefits of the most stable regime in the world.


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InvisibleHalfLight
.
I'm a teapot


Registered: 06/03/13
Posts: 2,322
Loc: Black Flag
Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: psilynut]
    #19078238 - 11/03/13 12:53 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

All of this is true I was admittedly over-simplifying.


--------------------
dead man walking


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Offlinestarfire_xes
I Am 'They'
Male User Gallery


Registered: 10/24/09
Posts: 21,590
Loc: Dallas with all the assho...
Last seen: 7 months, 1 day
Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: psilynut] * 2
    #19078323 - 11/03/13 01:22 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Don't expect some unelected fucking asshole government beaurocrat to be up your asshole 24-7 with a microscope controlling every aspect of your life.


--------------------


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OfflineMush4Brains
LOOL HACKED!!!

Registered: 07/31/13
Posts: 4,419
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: starfire_xes]
    #19078361 - 11/03/13 01:42 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

starfire_xes said:
Don't expect some unelected fucking asshole government beaurocrat to be up your asshole 24-7 with a microscope controlling every aspect of your life.




Well, with most decisions, if you work your way up the chain of command, there was eventually someone who had been elected who made the choice to hire someone, who made the choice to hire someone else... and so on.


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Invisiblelighthouse09
Stranger thats mr. stranger
 User Gallery


Registered: 03/16/13
Posts: 699
Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: Mush4Brains]
    #19078640 - 11/03/13 01:56 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I used to be a hardcore escapist/anarchist now i just want change and whatever it takes to get that?
anarchy i still don't see as a reasonable solution without serious reprocutions.
but i do feel lost how do we get out of this fucked system i just dont see the light at the end of the B.S. am i doomed dooooooommmmeeeddd!!!??>????


--------------------
<--This fuckin guy


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Offlinekneesocks
Divineress
Female User Gallery


Registered: 12/25/11
Posts: 870
Loc: Puget Sound/PNW Flag
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: Eddeee]
    #19078670 - 11/03/13 02:15 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I like how the thread quieted the fuck down after psilynut's post.

"Anarchy", like any other system of government (or lack-of), is inherently going to be corrupt, because an individual or individuals will seek to compete over who gets to lord their power, eventually turning into a feudal system or oligarchy, and we already know how those turn out.

There is no perfect system of government, just some that are more tolerable than others.
Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

MaxwellSmart said:

I wish I a dollar for every time I've heard something like that.



What the fuck would an anarchist want money for?



Quote:

MaxwellSmart said:
In what way?



Dude, to simplify things, you just got hardcore exposed as someone who doesn't understand anarchy at all.

Quote:

Eddeee said:
True Anarchy is having complete mutual respect and love for all your fellow human beings.



Where I'm from, that is commonly called "being a decent person".


--------------------
"An ignorant man is lost, faithless, and filled with self-doubt;
A soul that harbors doubt has no joy, not in this world or the next."
-Bhagavad-gita 4:40


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OfflineOpenQwerty
Stranger
Male User Gallery


Registered: 08/05/10
Posts: 162
Last seen: 4 hours, 13 minutes
Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: MaxwellSmart]
    #19078838 - 11/03/13 05:07 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

...Well, in the last few months I have tried to understand the anarchist ideas and to get closer to those who  call themselves anarchists (there is a lot of anarchist groups, here) .

Firstly, I have read some works by Kropotkin ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Kropotkin ). As far as I can understand his ideas, he starts from the observation that in nature, members of the most highly evolved species tend to cooperate with each other rather than compete with each other (you see, for example, dolphins, elephants, monkeys....), and also in the human  society, it can be observed that, in many "key areas", (for example, the scientific research ) the push toward cooperation is stronger than the competition (I will give a modern example : the space exploration is started as a competition but now is going to become a cooperation, with joint operations like the ISS  - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Space_Station ). Starting from these premises, his conclusion is that the human society should evolve into forms of cooperation, and mutual aid,  instead of to perpetuate the hierarchical forms of domination as the state, the capitalist market or anything else.

I don't fully agree with all of his ideas, but …his analysis seems quite logical to me.


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OfflineMaxwellSmart
Enemy of State


Registered: 10/27/13
Posts: 113
Last seen: 9 years, 8 months
Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: kneesocks]
    #19079247 - 11/03/13 08:19 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Wow, I don't even know where to start.
Quote:

kneesocks said:
I like how the thread quieted the fuck down after psilynut's post.

"Anarchy", like any other system of government (or lack-of), is inherently going to be corrupt, because an individual or individuals will seek to compete over who gets to lord their power, eventually turning into a feudal system or oligarchy, and we already know how those turn out.

There is no perfect system of government, just some that are more tolerable than others.
Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

MaxwellSmart said:

I wish I a dollar for every time I've heard something like that.



What the fuck would an anarchist want money for?



Quote:

MaxwellSmart said:
In what way?



Dude, to simplify things, you just got hardcore exposed as someone who doesn't understand anarchy at all.

Quote:

Eddeee said:
True Anarchy is having complete mutual respect and love for all your fellow human beings.



Where I'm from, that is commonly called "being a decent person".



First off, you don't know much about anarchy. At least, you apparently don't know that there is a wide spectrum of anarchist schools of thought.

ANARCHY:  absence of government

Origin of ANARCHY
Medieval Latin anarchia, from Greek, from anarchos having no ruler, from an- + archos ruler

I am not against money. Just because I am an anarchist, I do not, and could not, agree with every anarchist who ever lived. The ideas of Proudhon, Kropotkin, etc, are not the only anti state philosophies.

Money is nothing more than stored value. I am not against have wealth or material possessions. I am not a communist. If your narrow definition of anarchist requires me to denounce money then go ahead and call me something else. Some people use "Agorist", "Voluntarist", or "Anarco-Capitalist" ("AnCap" for short).

Every time I avoid calling myself anarchist, someone insists on making me admit I am one. Whenever I say I am an anarchist, I am told that I don't qualify as a true anarchist.

Anarchy would not result in an oligopoly. State cooperation is required for that. Without the state, the market would be open to everyone without restriction and competition would always be possible. What we have now is a fascist system that excludes competition through heavy regulation, high taxation, etc.

Milton Friedman — "Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself."


--------------------
"The cost of sanity, in this society, is a certain level of alienation." -Terence McKenna.


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OfflineMaxwellSmart
Enemy of State


Registered: 10/27/13
Posts: 113
Last seen: 9 years, 8 months
Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: psilynut]
    #19079282 - 11/03/13 08:30 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

psilynut said:
Quote:

Taxation is not theft, it's paid protection of your life and property. Unfortunately, our federal government does an absolute shit job off of this for most people, only the impossibly rich.



   
  Its a little more than that ......




If you don't like paying taxes . . .

- Don't drive on paved streets or highways.

- Don't call 911.

- Don't flush your toilet.

- Don't bring your garbage to the curb.

- Don't fly in an airplane that uses air-traffic controllers.

- Don't use the court system.

- Don't call the police when you get robbed.

- Don't use the US Post Office, send all your letters via FedEx or UPS.

- Don't ask for a farm subsidy for not growing crops.

- Don't ask for a taxpayer subsidy to do business in a city or state.

- Don't buy a sports franchise and ask the taxpayers to build your stadium.

- Don't send your children to public schools.

- Don't attend a state university.

- Don't expect a social security payment.

- Don't let Medicare pay your bills if you are over 65 or disabled.

- Don't look for a government contract to bolster your defense industry business.

- Don't look for a government.

- Don't look for a lucrative government consultant contract.

- Don't run for political office where your salary is paid for by the taxpayers.

- Don't accept government research findings that subsidize research for your industry.

- Don't be an airline and expect the government to bail you out.

- Don't be a car company and expect the government to bail you out.

- Don't be a steel company and expect the government to bail you out.

- Don't be a company that pollutes and expect the taxpayer to bail you out.

- Don't climb to the top of the Washington Monument, which is maintained at taxpayer expense.

- Don't make use of police services.

- Don't be rescued by fire department paramedic team.

- Don't call the fire department.

- Don't expect federal assistance if a natural disaster destroys your home or business.

- Don't expect the military to defend our country.

- Don't visit national parks or hike in national forests.

- Don't eat USDA inspected meat, cheese, eggs or produce.

- Don't take any medications tested and approved by the FDA.

- Don't drink, bath or otherwise use the water from municipal water systems.

- Don't look at or relay a weather report.

- Don't look at a NASA generated picture.

- Don't expect a unit of measure like a gallon of gas to be a full gallon.

- Don't expect an elevator to work correctly or not fall.

- Don't expect a red light to work.

- Don't be the Minority Senate Leader Named Trent Lott and expect American taxpayers to subsidize the building of private industry cruiseliner ships in your home state.

- Don't accept government money to help develop a product which you then personally patent or copyright and sell for your own profit.

- Don't use the services of a doctor who is licensed through the state.

- Don't expect research into medical problems such as cancer, heart disease, diabetes, aging, prostrate, menopause, etc.

- Don't use the public library.

- Don't go to a state university affiliated hospital.

- Don't go to a state university.

- Don't watch state college sports.

- Don't apply for government grants.

- Don't use your state's convention centers.

- Don't go to a state, city or municipal-run airport.

- Don't ask for rural electrification.

- Don't ask for FEC regulations that protect us from crooked financial planners.

- Don't ask to keep the airwaves free so your right-wing psycho radio talk show host can lie to you.

- Don't ask for a business loan from the small business administration.

- Don't ask to use the G.I. bill to go to college.

- Don't allow Al Gore to sponsor legislation to turn a military computer network (DARPANet/ARPANet) into the public-accessed "Internet."

- Don't drive a car that benefits from government safety regulations.

- Don't use electricity generated by TVA or some government-owned and maintained dam or facility.

- Don't use currency printed by the US Treasury.

- Don't use a bank or credit union that insures your deposits through the FDIC.

- Don't buy or build a house that requires the efforts of county deed offices or needs building permits and inspections.

- Don't get married, have children or die and expect the government to keep track of all the certificates.

- Don't expect the government to keep an eye on cemeteries, crematories and funeral homes so you won't get dug up and thrown in a swamp. And ask George Bush why he lied about his involvement with a company that did just that.

- Don't run for an elected office, because the local, state and federal election commissions could be involved.

- Don't go to a beach kept clean by the state.

- Don't use public transportation.

- Don't visit public museums.

- Don't go hunting, fishing, or camping on government property.

- Don't cross a bridge.

- Don't use truckstops or public restrooms.

June 24, 2002 Updates

- Don't expect the government to protect the copyright for the works you create.

- Don't move to any other developed nation, because the taxes are higher in all
the others, except South Africa.

- Don't expect your tap water to be clean and germ free.

- Don't expect there to be much wildlife left other than rats.

- Don't use wood or eat meat grown on Forest Service or BLM land.

- Don't eat any food transported on roads.

- Don't eat any vegetables in winter, 'cause they're mostly grown with "reclaimed" water.

- Don't expect any workplace safety standards, labor laws, or minimum wage.

- Don't use any gasoline, oil, or natural gas that was discovered by the USGS.

- Don't live in New Orleans, Sacramento or any other city protected by a levee.

- Don't expect zoning laws.

- Don't expect clean air, clean water, clean soil, etc.

- Don't expect highway signs.

- Don't expect laws against murder, theft, etc. (the govt. DEFINES crime).

- Don't expect to OWN anything, like your house, car, etc. (the govt. keeps track
of titles).

- Don't expect anyone to plow your roads when it snows or sweep them when they're dirty.

- Don't expect the government to regulate industries that have monopolies and use that power to raise your rates for reduced service and product quality.

- Don't expect the government to keep gasoline rates low, compared to the rest of the world.

- Don't expect convicted criminals to be in prison and off your street.

- Don't expect the local government to condemn private property at below market rates so that your major league baseball franchise can build a stadium on the land and make millions of dollars in profit while leaving the taxpayers to foot the bill when the courts order the government to pay the property owners a fair price.

July 26, 2002 Updates

- Don't expect to receive a cheap land lease on Federal lands, then mine or cut the forest for your profit with no repayment to the landlord (we the people).

- Don't expect to have uniform building codes.

- Don't expect to go to buildings and high rises that have been reviewed and inspected during construction to ensure it was built to current building codes.

- Don't expect to eat in restaurants that have been inspected to ensure cleanliness and the safe preparation of food.

- Don't expect your children to be able to ride the bus to school.

- Don't try to adopt a child through your county or state government.

- Don't expect the state or county to pay foster parents to take care of the children left abandoned or orphaned.

- Don't expect the state or county to investigate and/or remove children from neglectful or abusive homes.

- Don't visit the Smithsonian.

- Don't write any material to be published and copyright it.

- Don't go to your book store and try to find a book by its ISBN number.

- Don't expect the government to stop the auto companies from building SUVs that roll over and kill your wife and kids.

- Don't expect the court to appoint a taxpayer-paid attorney to represent you (or your child) when you are accused of a crime.

- Don't call or go to the US Embassy in a foreign country when you get in trouble.

- Don't get a passport or try to get out of the US without a Passport.

- Don't expect to enjoy the benefits of the most stable regime in the world.



There is no way in hell I am going to go through and address this point by point. There is a great quote, whose author I don't recall, which I can only paraphrase right now. It states that almost every criticism against government or a government service is taken as an argument against that service being provided. I do not oppose all of the things you listed (After having a second look, I actually do oppose quite a few of them though), I oppose the establishment and maintenance of a coercive monopoly over these services.


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: MaxwellSmart]
    #19079313 - 11/03/13 08:44 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

MaxwellSmart said:
Every time I avoid calling myself anarchist, someone insists on making me admit I am one. Whenever I say I am an anarchist, I am told that I don't qualify as a true anarchist.




You're such a victim, dude...

Maybe if you didn't post threads named "Fellow Anarchists?" people wouldn't think that you consider yourself an anarchist?


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: kneesocks]
    #19079346 - 11/03/13 08:52 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Eddeee said:
True Anarchy is having complete mutual respect and love for all your fellow human beings.



Where I'm from, that is commonly called "being a decent person".




Well most anarchists are decent people. They would be the first to give the shirt off there back in time of need.
Anarchy is not a form of government. Its NO GOVERNMENT. with that being said true anarchy in today modern society is basically impossible.It is only posilbe for small groups of people for a limmited amount of time. having lived this life, The only way anarchy is possible is if you live alone on a desert island. So Anarchy is more of a state of mind than a political belief. Most of the younger Anarchists think its about destruction,kaos,riots, and an anything goes mentality, which I belive is not a correct interpretation. Its based on following the Golden Rule. If we all were decent people, meaning world wide belief, then the world would be a differnt place than it is right now.


Edited by Eddeee (11/03/13 09:03 AM)


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: Enlil]
    #19079375 - 11/03/13 09:02 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Two days ago Zappaisgod told me I was an anarchist and chided me for not coming right out and saying it. The very next day I am accused of not being a true anarchist. I can't win! Call me anarchist. Call me agorist, Call me Ishmael! Words have different meaning for different people. I try my best to get the point across and usually that word does the job.


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: Eddeee]
    #19079379 - 11/03/13 09:04 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

You don't see any inconsistency in anarchists being expected to follow a rule?


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: Eddeee]
    #19079383 - 11/03/13 09:05 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Eddeee said:

Quote:

Eddeee said:
True Anarchy is having complete mutual respect and love for all your fellow human beings.



Where I'm from, that is commonly called "being a decent person".




Well most anarchists are decent people. They would be the first to give the shirt off there back in time of need.
Anarchy is not a form of government. Its NO GOVERNMENT. with that being said true anarchy in today modern society is basically impossible.It is only posilbe for small groups of people for a limmited amount of time. having lived this life, The only way anarchy is possible is if you live alone on a desert island. So Anarchy is more of a state of mind than a political belief. Most of the younger Anarchists think its about destruction,kaos,riots, and an anything goes mentality, which I belive is not a correct interpretation. Its based on following the Golden Rule. If we all were decent people, meaning world wide belief, then the world would be a differnt place than it is right now.



I appreciate the way you approach this discussion. I don't agree with you on the infeasibility of large scale statelessness, but we're generally on the same page.


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Edited by MaxwellSmart (11/03/13 09:05 AM)


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: Enlil]
    #19079389 - 11/03/13 09:08 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
You don't see any inconsistency in anarchists being expected to follow a rule?



No. I believe in private property and voluntary interactions. If I own a home and you want to live in it, I am fully justified in setting rules. No bonfires in the living room. That is a rule that I would set and if you don't like it, you don't have to live here.


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: MaxwellSmart]
    #19079395 - 11/03/13 09:10 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Until I choose to take your property by force...after all, who's going to stop me?


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: Enlil]
    #19079409 - 11/03/13 09:14 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

:popcorn:


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: Enlil]
    #19079415 - 11/03/13 09:15 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Until I choose to take your property by force...after all, who's going to stop me?



The millions of other people who bear arms due to lack of gun control, and don't wish to see tyranny rise as it did in the former republic.


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: HalfLight] * 1
    #19079417 - 11/03/13 09:17 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

So, people will work together to ensure that unacceptable behavior is not tolerated...

How is that different from government?


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: Enlil]
    #19079418 - 11/03/13 09:17 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Until I choose to take your property by force...after all, who's going to stop me?




that's a point that is also true of why communism doesn't work.  The statistical distribution of assholes, psychotics, nut-jobs, and socio-paths among humanity means that in any group there will be certain individuals who will operate for their own benefit no matter what the cost to others.

Such individuals require that society have some rules, norms, and standards to prevent harm to others.  These rules are implemented and enforced by some form of government.

The philosophical question is how much government and what kind of government is necessary?


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: Enlil]
    #19079426 - 11/03/13 09:20 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
You don't see any inconsistency in anarchists being expected to follow a rule?



I belive the saying following the Golden rule is more of a figure of speach rather than an actual rule. Or better yet more of a personal rule Ever one has rules in there private lives. Things they do or don't do just because the feel its right.
Quote:

Enlil said:
Until I choose to take your property by force...after all, who's going to stop me?



I will Stop you by what ever means posible and make it so you won't ever do that again. We will battle and if it looks like your going to take my property I;d burn it to the ground Pollute the fuck out of it,so now you can  have it even though its now worthless I still win." My original post was Mutual respect and Love for all human beings until you fuck me over then I fuck you over worse."


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: Enlil]
    #19079429 - 11/03/13 09:21 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Until I choose to take your property by force...after all, who's going to stop me?



Yes, and If I can't, I have the right to pay someone to protect me or come after you for damages.
Quote:

Enlil said:
So, people will work together to ensure that unacceptable behavior is not tolerated...

How is that different from government?



Government is forced on people who have not been aggressive. If you commit aggression, I am morally justified in defending myself or my property.


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: Enlil]
    #19079433 - 11/03/13 09:22 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
So, people will work together to ensure that unacceptable behavior is not tolerated...

How is that different from government?



It isn't, only there is no single person or group of people which evidently have more responsibility to ensure such, nor is there a single person or group which are given more power to do such. Of course there are those who will make their strongest attempts to gain such responsibilities and powers, so the anarchist system would collapse. Power seeking individuals tend not to have the interest of others in line with their own, thus tyrannical rule would ensue.

I think you and I are on the same page that anarchy wouldn't work.


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: starfire_xes]
    #19079442 - 11/03/13 09:24 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

starfire_xes said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
Until I choose to take your property by force...after all, who's going to stop me?




that's a point that is also true of why communism doesn't work.  The statistical distribution of assholes, psychotics, nut-jobs, and socio-paths among humanity means that in any group there will be certain individuals who will operate for their own benefit no matter what the cost to others.

Such individuals require that society have some rules, norms, and standards to prevent harm to others.  These rules are implemented and enforced by some form of government.

The philosophical question is how much government and what kind of government is necessary?



The way I see it is that there is a portion of the population who are psychopathic and power hungry. The problem is that they are willing to do whatever it takes to get what they want and consequently, they will more often reach the top. Psychopaths run the world.


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: HalfLight]
    #19079451 - 11/03/13 09:27 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

TryinToTrip said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
Until I choose to take your property by force...after all, who's going to stop me?



The millions of other people who bear arms due to lack of gun control, and don't wish to see tyranny rise as it did in the former republic.



Unless those people choose to organize in a way that allows them to exploit other people, instead of protect their freedom.


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: MaxwellSmart]
    #19079452 - 11/03/13 09:28 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

MaxwellSmart said:
Quote:

starfire_xes said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
Until I choose to take your property by force...after all, who's going to stop me?




that's a point that is also true of why communism doesn't work.  The statistical distribution of assholes, psychotics, nut-jobs, and socio-paths among humanity means that in any group there will be certain individuals who will operate for their own benefit no matter what the cost to others.

Such individuals require that society have some rules, norms, and standards to prevent harm to others.  These rules are implemented and enforced by some form of government.

The philosophical question is how much government and what kind of government is necessary?



The way I see it is that there is a portion of the population who are psychopathic and power hungry. The problem is that they are willing to do whatever it takes to get what they want and consequently, they will more often reach the top. Psychopaths run the world.




And in an anarchist society, they would still run the world.


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: MaxwellSmart]
    #19079458 - 11/03/13 09:28 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

All of you seem to be operating under the mistaken notion that the government is an external force that oppresses the citizens.  The government is made up of citizens elected by other citizens.  The government doesn't force us to do shit.  We force shit on ourselves.

All of the nonsense about everyone working together, etc. is either a utopian ideal based on an unrealistic assessment of human nature, or it requires policies and a group designated to enforce those policies.  THAT is government...even if you want to call it something else.


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: Heffy]
    #19079470 - 11/03/13 09:33 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

TryinToTrip said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
So, people will work together to ensure that unacceptable behavior is not tolerated...

How is that different from government?



It isn't,



Government is compulsory. Any system which
Quote:

Heffy said:
Quote:

MaxwellSmart said:
Quote:

starfire_xes said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
Until I choose to take your property by force...after all, who's going to stop me?




that's a point that is also true of why communism doesn't work.  The statistical distribution of assholes, psychotics, nut-jobs, and socio-paths among humanity means that in any group there will be certain individuals who will operate for their own benefit no matter what the cost to others.

Such individuals require that society have some rules, norms, and standards to prevent harm to others.  These rules are implemented and enforced by some form of government.

The philosophical question is how much government and what kind of government is necessary?



The way I see it is that there is a portion of the population who are psychopathic and power hungry. The problem is that they are willing to do whatever it takes to get what they want and consequently, they will more often reach the top. Psychopaths run the world.




And in an anarchist society, they would still run the world.



I don't know what you mean by "run the world". How would they run the world without the state?


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: Enlil]
    #19079477 - 11/03/13 09:34 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
All of you seem to be operating under the mistaken notion that the government is an external force that oppresses the citizens.  The government is made up of citizens elected by other citizens.  The government doesn't force us to do shit.  We force shit on ourselves.

All of the nonsense about everyone working together, etc. is either a utopian ideal based on an unrealistic assessment of human nature, or it requires policies and a group designated to enforce those policies.  THAT is government...even if you want to call it something else.



Government =/= Society.

I did not choose this system and do not consent.


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: MaxwellSmart]
    #19079481 - 11/03/13 09:35 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

They would run the world individually and collectively.  They would individually take from other what they want and enforce their will upon others.  When working together, they would do so on a larger scale.

Either way, it would still become government...A tyranny, for sure...but still a government.


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: MaxwellSmart]
    #19079490 - 11/03/13 09:37 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

MaxwellSmart said:

I did not choose this system and do not consent.



You're free to go elsewhere or kill yourself.  Either will take you out of the territorial jurisdiction of wherever you currently live.

By staying put, however, you are subject to the rules created by the citizens of the jurisdiction through their elected representatives.  You can either participate in the rule-making process in an attempt to make it closer to a society of your choosing, or you can ignore it and continue to be subject to rules you disagree with.


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: Enlil]
    #19079491 - 11/03/13 09:38 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

TryinToTrip said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
So, people will work together to ensure that unacceptable behavior is not tolerated...

How is that different from government?



It isn't,



Government is compulsory. Any system which
Quote:

Enlil said:
They would run the world individually and collectively.  They would individually take from other what they want and enforce their will upon others.  When working together, they would do so on a larger scale.

Either way, it would still become government...A tyranny, for sure...but still a government.



So your criticism of anarchy is that we couldn't sustain it? I could say the same for limited government.


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: MaxwellSmart]
    #19079497 - 11/03/13 09:40 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Of course not.  My criticism of anarchy is that it ultimately is a society wherein the strong take what they want from the weak.  It is ultimately a society where rape is the standard procedure for mating and theft is the standard procedure for wealth accumulation.


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: Enlil]
    #19079505 - 11/03/13 09:42 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

MaxwellSmart said:

I did not choose this system and do not consent.



You're free to go elsewhere or kill yourself.  Either will take you out of the territorial jurisdiction of wherever you currently live.

By staying put, however, you are subject to the rules created by the citizens of the jurisdiction through their elected representatives.  You can either participate in the rule-making process in an attempt to make it closer to a society of your choosing, or you can ignore it and continue to be subject to rules you disagree with.



You see what you're saying? I can't stay here unless I follow rules established my someone else. In effect, I don't really own my property. The state does.


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: MaxwellSmart]
    #19079511 - 11/03/13 09:43 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

As Enlil said, governments are run by citizens.
A government isn't some great, evil entity which is out to get us, it is us.

All of you saying that small portions of psychopathy among citizens is what creates oppression in a system are just trying to fool yourself into thinking you're better than the next guy over.
Come on, remember the Milgram experiments? The Stanford prison experiments?
Nearly all of us will just be shitty given the correct circumstances, which happen to be most circumstances.


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: MaxwellSmart]
    #19079516 - 11/03/13 09:45 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

The state is not something separate from the people of the state, though.  That's the point of representative government. 

You may not agree to the prohibition on murder, but enough people do that the state has passed a law prohibiting it.  Why should you be free to exempt yourself from that rule?


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: HalfLight]
    #19079518 - 11/03/13 09:46 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

It all boils down to this: Property rights are absolute. No one has the right to commit aggression against another. The state violates these rules.


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: MaxwellSmart]
    #19079520 - 11/03/13 09:47 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Property rights are only absolute in your mind.

The truth is that property rights only exist because you live in a society that has chosen to recognize them.  If you didn't, you wouldn't even understand the concept of ownership.


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: MaxwellSmart]
    #19079805 - 11/03/13 11:04 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

MaxwellSmart said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
All of you seem to be operating under the mistaken notion that the government is an external force that oppresses the citizens.  The government is made up of citizens elected by other citizens.  The government doesn't force us to do shit.  We force shit on ourselves.

All of the nonsense about everyone working together, etc. is either a utopian ideal based on an unrealistic assessment of human nature, or it requires policies and a group designated to enforce those policies.  THAT is government...even if you want to call it something else.



Government =/= Society.

I did not choose this system and do not consent.




Society is a fictional construct.


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19079885 - 11/03/13 11:23 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

i do not agree with anarchy because i do no think its realistic at all. However i do believe in the most limited government possible. So what i like to do is start with anarchy and build up from there adding what a government should be in charge of.

Also you quoted Milton Friedman earlier. His position is not that property rights should be the end all goal. But that equality and maximum prosperity for all should be the end goals, property rights and economic freedom just happen to be the best means to that end.


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: psyconaught]
    #19079942 - 11/03/13 11:34 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Equality and maximum prosperity for all?  Are you sure?


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: MaxwellSmart]
    #19080071 - 11/03/13 12:13 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

MaxwellSmart said:
There is a great quote, whose author I don't recall, which I can only paraphrase right now. It states that almost every criticism against government or a government service is taken as an argument against that service being provided.



That was Frederic Bastiat --

“Socialism, like the ancient ideas from which it springs, confuses the distinction between government and society. As a result of this, every time we object to a thing being done by government, the socialists conclude that we object to its being done at all. We disapprove of state education. Then the socialists say that we are opposed to any education. We object to a state religion. Then the socialists say that we want no religion at all. We object to a state-enforced equality. Then they say that we are against equality. And so on, and so on. It is as if the socialists were to accuse us of not wanting persons to eat because we do not want the state to raise grain.”



Phred


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19080203 - 11/03/13 12:46 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Equality and maximum prosperity for all?  Are you sure?



i should be more clear. economic/opportunity equality and the maximum amount of potential prosperity


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: psyconaught]
    #19080253 - 11/03/13 12:58 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Equality and maximum prosperity for all?  Are you sure?



i should be more clear. economic/opportunity equality and the maximum amount of potential prosperity



This is an extremely important distinction and I did not think that someone who read Friedman, Milton would have gone where you went with that post.


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: Phred]
    #19080490 - 11/03/13 01:56 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
Quote:

MaxwellSmart said:
There is a great quote, whose author I don't recall, which I can only paraphrase right now. It states that almost every criticism against government or a government service is taken as an argument against that service being provided.



That was Frederic Bastiat --

“Socialism, like the ancient ideas from which it springs, confuses the distinction between government and society. As a result of this, every time we object to a thing being done by government, the socialists conclude that we object to its being done at all. We disapprove of state education. Then the socialists say that we are opposed to any education. We object to a state religion. Then the socialists say that we want no religion at all. We object to a state-enforced equality. Then they say that we are against equality. And so on, and so on. It is as if the socialists were to accuse us of not wanting persons to eat because we do not want the state to raise grain.”



Phred



Thanks, that is the quote I was looking for. I found it and was just going to post. You beat me.


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: psyconaught]
    #19080575 - 11/03/13 02:19 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
i do not agree with anarchy because i do no think its realistic at all. However i do believe in the most limited government possible. So what i like to do is start with anarchy and build up from there adding what a government should be in charge of.

Also you quoted Milton Friedman earlier. His position is not that property rights should be the end all goal. But that equality and maximum prosperity for all should be the end goals, property rights and economic freedom just happen to be the best means to that end.



I should say that I am not a huge fan of Friedman. He does have some good quotes though.

But getting back to your statement about the infeasibility of anarchy... Ireland was stateless for 1,000 years. Iceland for well over 300 The Amish are essentially anarchist. I think it's very realistic. I wouldn't expect the entire world or even this country to change over all at once but if it is possible on a small scale, there is no reason to say it couldn't expand. Some people believe that anarchy is the pinnacle of societal evolution. John Lennon's "Imagine" comes to mind, though I don't agree with all of his ideas.


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19080959 - 11/03/13 03:36 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Equality and maximum prosperity for all?  Are you sure?



i should be more clear. economic/opportunity equality and the maximum amount of potential prosperity



This is an extremely important distinction and I did not think that someone who read Friedman, Milton would have gone where you went with that post.



yeah that was my fault for assuming that most would be familiar enough with friedman to make to jump. Thanks for catching that though :thumbup:


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: psyconaught] * 2
    #19081201 - 11/03/13 04:18 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Most of the posters here are ignorant commie morons who have no clue about Milton Friedman


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19081410 - 11/03/13 05:03 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

like i said its my bad for making a silly assumption haha. The post was more directed at the OP since he quoted friedman earlier i assumed his knowledge


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: psyconaught]
    #19081471 - 11/03/13 05:15 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

The Friedman they are most familiar with is Thomas, an unapologetiic admirer of fascism


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19081528 - 11/03/13 05:25 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I'm a big David Friedman fan.


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: MaxwellSmart]
    #19081691 - 11/03/13 05:57 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Until I choose to take your property by force...after all, who's going to stop me?



What's preventing private security forces from functioning?
I am not an anarchist, but can see how anarcho-capitalism could be argued for. Having lived in South Africa, private armed response had cost about $15 a month, and from my own experience, they are pretty effective. The private security industry in South Africa essentially run as a private police service, being larger than their police force and military combined.


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: Fronnis]
    #19081727 - 11/03/13 06:03 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Fronnis said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
Until I choose to take your property by force...after all, who's going to stop me?



What's preventing private security forces from functioning?
I am not an anarchist, but can see how anarcho-capitalism could be argued for. Having lived in South Africa, private armed response had cost about $15 a month, and from my own experience, they are pretty effective. The private security industry in South Africa essentially run as a private police service, being larger than their police force and military combined.



Very interesting. Thank you for bringing this up. I need to check it out.


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: Fronnis]
    #19081751 - 11/03/13 06:09 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

That was in the context of a society with a government, though.  Private security only works until the protectors realize they can take the money much easier than they can protect someone with money.  Human nature is to seek the strongest incentive and/or avoid the strongest disincentive.  If they don't have a structure in place that disincentivizes violence and aggression, both will be used regularly to improve one's position in life.


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: Enlil]
    #19081762 - 11/03/13 06:10 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
That was in the context of a society with a government, though.  Private security only works until the protectors realize they can take the money much easier than they can protect someone with money.  Human nature is to seek the strongest incentive and/or avoid the strongest disincentive.  If they don't have a structure in place that disincentivizes violence and aggression, both will be used regularly to improve one's position in life.



That is why competition is so important. You support a monopoly over security forces. Nothing counters the state.


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: MaxwellSmart]
    #19081777 - 11/03/13 06:13 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

And I bet they aren't bothering people for marijuana possession or other victimless crimes. If they started to get out of hand, people would stop paying them and start paying their competitors.


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: MaxwellSmart]
    #19081781 - 11/03/13 06:14 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)



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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: MaxwellSmart]
    #19081836 - 11/03/13 06:21 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

It doesn't work so well for the majority in South Africa who cannot afford to live let alone pay for security. I think the intention to allow such an industry to operate was to lower costs to fund state service.


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: MaxwellSmart]
    #19081852 - 11/03/13 06:24 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

The end result is that the strongest gang will rule.  It'll still be a government.


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #19081854 - 11/03/13 06:25 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
The end result is that the strongest gang will rule.  It'll still be a government.




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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19081925 - 11/03/13 06:38 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

In the case of South Africa, your opinion is that one company would win over the ~9000 others and a population with many bearing arms?


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: Fronnis]
    #19081937 - 11/03/13 06:40 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

South Africa is irrelevant to this discussion..  that is a nation of laws with a government.  This thread is about anarchy which, by definition, has no government.


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: Enlil]
    #19081969 - 11/03/13 06:46 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I meant in the hypothetical situation of it undergoing a state of anarchy, having extensive private security already being established.


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: Fronnis]
    #19081988 - 11/03/13 06:49 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

If the government dissolved, yes, the strongest gang would rule.  It would probably be a gang formed by a coalition of gangs.  Either way, they would be the new rulers, and the government would be one of tyranny.


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: Enlil]
    #19082020 - 11/03/13 06:58 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
If the government dissolved, yes, the strongest gang would rule.  It would probably be a gang formed by a coalition of gangs.  Either way, they would be the new rulers, and the government would be one of tyranny.





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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19082178 - 11/03/13 07:34 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I don't mind paying state taxes because I live there. Property taxes are a racket AKA theft, federal taxes are the same thing theft because our government miss handles tax money they need to dig deeper into our pockets. The IRS and the federal reserve are private companies for the banks of America the rich family's who really run this country. Find the law that says you have to pay federal taxes... there isn't one but you will be prosecuted for failure to pay. Federal taxes were set up temporarily to get us out of the great depression but were still paying them today...it's a racket.


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: T-Funkadelic]
    #19082191 - 11/03/13 07:36 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Wow..you're completely wrong.  Property taxes pay for many municipal services.

And yes, there is a law that says you have to pay income taxes.

And the irs and federal reserve are agencies of the federal government...not private companies.


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: Enlil]
    #19082282 - 11/03/13 07:56 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Show me the code/law that states you are lawfully bound to pay 1040A


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: T-Funkadelic]
    #19082503 - 11/03/13 08:31 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

1040a is a form, not a tax...You don't pay a 1040a...you file a 1040a and pay the required taxes.

Section 1 of the IRC clearly defines who owes what taxes on income.  Further, IRC section 6151 clearly requires that those taxes be paid when the return is due.  IRC section 6011(a) and 6012(a) requires that the return be filed if taxes are due as defined in section 1. 

I'll spell it out a bit more clearly since you're obviously not a lawyer:

Section 6012(a) says, in relevant part:

"(a)  General rule 
Returns with respect to income taxes under subtitle A shall be made by the following:

(1)
(A) Every individual having for the taxable year gross income which equals or exceeds the exemption amount"26 U.S.C. § 6012(a)

So, this says that a return "shall be made" by individuals who have a gross income exceeding the exemption.  "shall" in legal terms means it's a requirement.

So, how does one know if their gross income exceeds the exemption?  Section 1 tells us:  26 U.S.C § 1

So, between those two code sections, you can see when a return is required...now, when a return is required, payment is required with the return:

"Except as otherwise provided in this subchapter, when a return of tax is required under this title or regulations, the person required to make such return shall, without assessment or notice and demand from the Secretary, pay such tax to the internal revenue officer with whom the return is filed, and shall pay such tax at the time and place fixed for filing the return (determined without regard to any extension of time for filing the return)."26 U.S.C. § 6151

Of course, most tax protesters can't put these three codes together, so they assume there is no law...that is nonsense.  You don't have to take my word for it, of course.  Every circuit court that has taken up the issue has determined that the payment of federal income taxes is mandatory as is the filing of a return.


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: MaxwellSmart]
    #19082998 - 11/03/13 10:13 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

MaxwellSmart said:
Quote:

Eddeee said:
True Anarchy is having complete mutual respect and love for all your fellow human beings. But if you fuck me over I fuck you over worse



YES!!




I wouldn't be so sure of that. ACCORDING to Wikipedia there are many variations of anarchists, even non violent ones.

So what does that say about Anarchy?

Maybe the term is too vague. Maybe it's out of date and needs a reformation.

I wouldn't be so quick to give up on America. With the right minds working together it can be brilliant. At least I can walk outside through the woods. I can swim in the ocean. I can write.

So?


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: XUL] * 1
    #19084207 - 11/04/13 05:25 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

The federal government rests its authority to collect income tax on the 16th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution—the federal income tax amendment—which was allegedly ratified in 1913."The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration."—The 16th Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of AmericaAfter an extensive year-long nationwide research project, William J. Benson discovered that the 16th Amendment was not ratified by the requisite three-fourths of the states and that nevertheless Secretary of State Philander Knox had fraudulently declared ratification.It was a shocking revelation; it reached deep to the core of our American system of government.The DiscoveryArticle V of the U.S. Constitution defines the ratification process and requires three-fourths of the states to ratify any amendment proposed by Congress. There were fourty-eight states in the American Union in 1913, meaning that affirmative action of thirty-six was necessary for ratification. In February 1913, Secretary of State Philander Knox proclaimed that thirty-eight had ratified the Amendment.In 1984 Bill Benson began a research project, never before performed, to investigate the process of ratification of the 16th Amendment. After traveling to the capitols of the New England states and reviewing the journals of the state legislative bodies, he saw that many states had not ratified. He continued his research at the National Archives in Washington, D.C.; it was here that Bill found his Golden Key.This damning piece of evidence is a sixteen-page memorandum from the Solicitor of the Department of State, among whose duties is the provision of legal opinions for the Secretary of State. In this memorandum, the Solicitor lists the many errors he found in the ratification process.These four states are among the thirty-eight from which Philander Knox claimed ratification:California: The legislature never recorded any vote on any proposal to adopt the amendment proposed by Congress.Kentucky: The Senate voted on the resolution, but rejected it by a vote of nine in favor and twenty-two opposed.Minnesota: The State sent nothing to the Secretary of State in Washington.Oklahoma: The Senate amended the language of the 16th Amendment to have a precisely opposite meaning.Bill would like to thank those who've contributed or shown support in the fight against fraudulent taxation. Clickhere to help.When his project was finished at the end of 1984, Bill had visited the capitol of every state from 1913 and knew that not a single one had actually and legally ratified the proposal to amend the U.S. Constitution. Thirty-three states engaged in the unauthorized activity of altering the language of an amendment proposed by Congress, a power that the states do not possess.Since thirty-six states were needed for ratification, the failure of thirteen to ratify was fatal to the Amendment. This occurs within the major (first three) defects tabulated in Defects in Ratification of the 16th Amendment. Even if we were to ignore defects of spelling, capitalization and punctuation, we would still have only two states which successfully ratified.


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: T-Funkadelic]
    #19084231 - 11/04/13 05:43 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Lol...so the "there is no law requiring one to pay taxes" argument failed and you move onto the "16th amendment never ratified" argument.  Lets go ahead and put that one to rest as well.

As a matter of fact, the 16th amendment has been ratified by 42 states.  William Benson, the proponent of the whackjob theory you're relying on, was convicted for fraud based on his theory.  In addition, see Brushaber v. Union Pacific R. Co. 240 U.S. 1

Also:

"the Secretary of State’s certification under authority of Congress that the sixteenth amendment has been ratified by the requisite number of states and has become part of the Constitution is conclusive upon the courts” United States v. Stahl, 792 F.2d 1438, 1441.

Every court that has looked at the ratification argument has rejected it as frivolous.  Mr. Benson lied, and a bunch of people believed it.  Nonetheless, the 16th amendment is law and has been since 1913.


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: T-Funkadelic]
    #19084236 - 11/04/13 05:46 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

The Internal Revenue Service (IRS) is a private Corporation, incorporated in Delaware in1933, and operates under international treaty.  (See Public Law 94-564 Reorganization Plan #26)The IRS (the corporation) is acting as Agent under contract to “the bank” (The International Bank for Reconstruction and Development) and “the Fund” (The International Monetary Fund) a.k.a. the Treasury.The IRS is acting as the Agent of a Foreign Principal (Federal Reserve) under the terms of the Foreign Agents Registration Act of 1938.  The Federal Reserve is not a government agency.  It is a Foreign Principal. It is admittedly a private corporation, privately held by 12 families (one American and 11 foreign).  Those who rule the world under this umbrella are the Illuminati, the Bilderberger group, the Council on Foreign Relations, and the Trilateral Commission.IRS agents are directed and controlled by the corporate governor of “the Bank” and “the Fund” a.k.a. Secretary of the Treasury IRS, Puerto Rico (See Public Law 94-564, U.S. Government Manual 190/1991 & Treasury Delegation Order 150-10).IRS personnel are trained under the direction of the “Division of Human Resources” of the United Nations and the Commissioner (International), by the “Office of Personnel Management” which is under the direction of the Secretary General of the United Nations (Treasury Delegation Order #92)  (Executive Order 10422).The IRS is also an Agency of the International Criminal Police Organization, and solicits and collects information for 150 Foreign Powers (22 U.S.C.263a).The IRS is directly engaged in the solicitation and gathering legally protected information of a private and personal nature on everyone contained in their files of records, and does distribute that information to the other member agencies throughout the world without the knowledge or consent of the parties involved (22U.S.C.A. 611 (c) (II)).The Internal Revenue Service (International) lacks proper authority to act such as a Foreign Agents Registration statement (22 U.S.C.A. 612) and (18 U.S.C.A. 219 & 951).The IRS as a paramilitary organization may not impose military authority into civil affairs (D.O.A. 27100-70).The IRS acting as the Agent of a Foreign Principal, “the Bank” and “the Fund” under the United Nations Charter, Article 2, Section 7 prohibits the U.N. and its Administrative Agencies from “intervening in matters which are essentially within the domestic jurisdiction of any state”.The IRS comes before the courts only as the non- registered Agent of a Foreign Principal, acting in the person of its own corporate capacity.Acting in its corporate capacity the IRS is engaged in commerce as a collection agency under contract.  None of the money that you pay in goes to any program or compelled benefit like you think it does.  Almost all of the income tax goes to pay the interest on the so-called “debt” to the Federal Reserve (for illegal fiat money conceived by our bureaucrats, and large corporations), not into the U.S. Treasury.  John F. Kennedy warned the people of this fraud and issued executive order # 11.110 on June 4, 1963, and the Treasury started to issue United States notes that looked like our familiar Federal Reserve Notes but only cost the people the cost of paper, ink and printing.  Within months he was dead.  Then Lyndon Johnson inactivated the executive order, and U.S. notes were withdrawn and replaced once again with Federal Reserve notes. Look on the back of any check you have written to the IRS.  It will say, “Pay to any branch of the Federal Reserve Bank”.  This is an illegal conversion of funds.  All government sponsored programs and compelled benefits come from money continuously borrowed from the Federal Reserve.  This is why our paper money is now described as a ‘note’ instead of a ‘silver certificate’.  It is illegally loaned in to existence, and has no value except for the faith the American people put in it.  A note for a thing is not the real thing.  When you use Federal Reserve Notes instead of real money (silver certificates, silver or gold), you are simply making a promise to pay, not actually paying. Since the dollar is a unit of measurement, just like a ‘pound’ of coffee or a ‘quart’ of milk, and there is nothing of hard value backing the dollar, what is it a dollar of?Sure, you buy goods and products with Federal Reserve Notes, but that which you have of appreciable value could be taken from you without due process of law, simply because you never owned the money in the first place. Look it up. Every time we spend a dollar, we are re-circulating a dollar that was loaned in to existence. It is because of this debt structure that our nation has a multi trillion-dollar deficit that can never be paid.  Your government has your property listed as collateral against the Federal Reserve Notes (promises to pay) they continuously borrow. The only thing that keeps homeowners from being on the street is the Federal Reserve not calling their note due.  When they do call their note due, every man, woman and child will then be their slave.Thomas Jefferson said, “ If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered”.The IRS acts on the presumption that assigned foundational agreement/instrument exists between the United States and the citizen/franchisee knowing that very few citizens/non citizens have the knowledge or the courage to resist their extortion.The IRS leadership has departmentalized the functions of tax collection to purposely limit and discourage the exchange of information and/or the lack of authority, between the departments to prevent low level employees from discovering the true nature of their assignments and thus prevent disclosure and whistle blowing.IRS references made to any authority for collection proceedings under Title 26 CFR, Subtitle A, are made under color of law as there is no collection authority authorized within Title 26, only penalties for failure to perform a given function.All Collection authority is found in Title 27 CFR, Part 70 and pertains only to alcohol, tobacco, firearms and explosives (Stamp taxes or duties).Many IRS agents often use alias names and are paid commissions, written to their real name, on what ever they steal from you.The IRS is unable to provide documented proof of the authorization that enables the IRS to operate outside the District of Columbia, and insular possessions of the United States, such as Guam, Puerto Rico, Virgin Islands, Philippines, and American Samoa, as required by Title 4, U.S.C., Section 72.The IRS uses false documents and presentments that have no legal authority behind them, i.e. 1040 form, Notice of Levy, etc., to solicit and extort money from you using the United States Postal Service.  They also falsely represent themselves on the outside of their envelopes, to be an agency of the United States department of Treasury.  Therefore, the Internal Revenue Service is guilty of the crime of Mail Fraud and False Representation.The IRS agents have no legal authority to demand anything from you, if there are no 3rd party informational documents sent to them with your name on it. They unlawfully and unconstitutionally misapply the revenue laws in an effort to compel you to supply them with confidential information when in fact, their own IRC, 6103, Section (h) and (j) says that they could use this information against you in a criminal proceeding.  This is a gross violation of 4th and 5th amendment rights, which are legally protected by the U.S. Constitution. This is pure extortion.   You have the lawful right to correct informational documents, such as W2's, and 1099's, and demand that they recognize you as one “who does not enjoy the privilege of federally connected employment”.  When are the American people going to wake up and realize that our so-called leaders are co-conspirators with the most evil organization ever contrived?  This is the vilest fraud ever perpetuated on a free people.  People in this country need to ask themselves if they were created for the purposes of the IRS and those who conspire with them, or were they created for the Glory of God.  Are we going to continue giving to these ungodly, corrupt, and spiritually wicked people the power that belongs to God?  In the book of Genesis, Adam and Eve gave us the first example of the consequences of ‘obedience without question’ to someone other than Almighty God. The result was separation from God, and His fellowship. If it is not of God, it is of the devil.  This is a very simple truth that will never change.


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: T-Funkadelic]
    #19084252 - 11/04/13 05:57 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Now you're just getting :tinfoil: on us with talk of Bilderberg and illuminati.

I tried to educate you after your previous incorrect posts, but this one is a bridge too far.  It is clear that you are one of those conspiracy theorists who believes everything he sees on a youtube video as long as it speaks ill of the government.

You should probably hang out in the Conspiracy Forum.


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: Enlil]
    #19084264 - 11/04/13 06:07 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I am an anarchist.  System of common morality(don't do what will hurt others) and no leaders. Pretty simple.


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: T-Funkadelic]
    #19084291 - 11/04/13 06:36 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

T-Funkadellic said:
The federal government rests its authority to collect income tax on the 16th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution—the federal income tax amendment—which was allegedly ratified in 1913."The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration."—The 16th Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of AmericaAfter an extensive year-long nationwide research project, William J. Benson discovered that the 16th Amendment was not ratified by the requisite three-fourths of the states and that nevertheless Secretary of State Philander Knox had fraudulently declared ratification.It was a shocking revelation; it reached deep to the core of our American system of government.The DiscoveryArticle V of the U.S. Constitution defines the ratification process and requires three-fourths of the states to ratify any amendment proposed by Congress. There were fourty-eight states in the American Union in 1913, meaning that affirmative action of thirty-six was necessary for ratification. In February 1913, Secretary of State Philander Knox proclaimed that thirty-eight had ratified the Amendment.In 1984 Bill Benson began a research project, never before performed, to investigate the process of ratification of the 16th Amendment. After traveling to the capitols of the New England states and reviewing the journals of the state legislative bodies, he saw that many states had not ratified. He continued his research at the National Archives in Washington, D.C.; it was here that Bill found his Golden Key.This damning piece of evidence is a sixteen-page memorandum from the Solicitor of the Department of State, among whose duties is the provision of legal opinions for the Secretary of State. In this memorandum, the Solicitor lists the many errors he found in the ratification process.These four states are among the thirty-eight from which Philander Knox claimed ratification:California: The legislature never recorded any vote on any proposal to adopt the amendment proposed by Congress.Kentucky: The Senate voted on the resolution, but rejected it by a vote of nine in favor and twenty-two opposed.Minnesota: The State sent nothing to the Secretary of State in Washington.Oklahoma: The Senate amended the language of the 16th Amendment to have a precisely opposite meaning.Bill would like to thank those who've contributed or shown support in the fight against fraudulent taxation. Clickhere to help.When his project was finished at the end of 1984, Bill had visited the capitol of every state from 1913 and knew that not a single one had actually and legally ratified the proposal to amend the U.S. Constitution. Thirty-three states engaged in the unauthorized activity of altering the language of an amendment proposed by Congress, a power that the states do not possess.Since thirty-six states were needed for ratification, the failure of thirteen to ratify was fatal to the Amendment. This occurs within the major (first three) defects tabulated in Defects in Ratification of the 16th Amendment. Even if we were to ignore defects of spelling, capitalization and punctuation, we would still have only two states which successfully ratified.





References?


And my questions. Are you an anarchist? So what do you intend to do about this "fact"(no references)?

exposing facts is one thing but you haven't presented facts to us.

As an anarchist how do you live your life?

Do you use chemical products? Do you obey the state? How do you live?


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: TheShroomingAtheis]
    #19084292 - 11/04/13 06:36 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Simple, maybe, but not functional in a society larger than a few people. 

Human nature doesn't recognize a "common morality."


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: Enlil]
    #19084302 - 11/04/13 06:44 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

TheShroomingAtheis said:
I am an anarchist.  System of common morality(don't do what will hurt others) and no leaders. Pretty simple.





Quote:

Enlil said:
Simple, maybe, but not functional in a society larger than a few people. 

Human nature doesn't recognize a "common morality."





I agree with Enlil. It seems to me if anarchy is worth while then it would technically be a "good" thing if we all converted to anarchy. The problem is that nobody would agree and we might end up with a bunch of communes battling with each other. It seems primitive.

Hypothetically speaking....

Imagine America has turned into a massive nation based on anarchy, communes every where; maybe even peace. But what happens when another country decides to come in and kill us all yet we have no leaders?

They would come in and rape all our wives and daughters but there would be no way to stop it because the lack of organization.

What does anarchy say about that?

Counterpoint?


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OfflineMaxwellSmart
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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: XUL]
    #19084334 - 11/04/13 07:01 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

XUL said:
Quote:

MaxwellSmart said:
Quote:

Eddeee said:
True Anarchy is having complete mutual respect and love for all your fellow human beings. But if you fuck me over I fuck you over worse



YES!!




I wouldn't be so sure of that. ACCORDING to Wikipedia there are many variations of anarchists, even non violent ones.

So what does that say about Anarchy?

Maybe the term is too vague. Maybe it's out of date and needs a reformation.

I wouldn't be so quick to give up on America. With the right minds working together it can be brilliant. At least I can walk outside through the woods. I can swim in the ocean. I can write.

So?



Yes, it is vague and out of date. And it's true that not all anarchists are moral/ethical. There are more specific terms but "anarchy" encompasses other philosophies besides my own personal beliefs. I didn't want to exclude other types of anarchists, even though it's starting to look like I am alone anyway.

I never said we should give up on America. The state and the people are not the same. I truly hope America will move past this religion of statism and embrace freedom and cooperation.

You can walk in the woods and swim and write in a free society. Those are not benefits of statism. That is freedom. You do those things despite government, not because of it.


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: TheShroomingAtheis]
    #19084336 - 11/04/13 07:03 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

TheShroomingAtheis said:
I am an anarchist.  System of common morality(don't do what will hurt others) and no leaders. Pretty simple.



Yay! I'm not alone after all.


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: MaxwellSmart]
    #19084367 - 11/04/13 07:26 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

MaxwellSmart said:
Quote:

XUL said:
Quote:

MaxwellSmart said:
Quote:

Eddeee said:
True Anarchy is having complete mutual respect and love for all your fellow human beings. But if you fuck me over I fuck you over worse



YES!!




I wouldn't be so sure of that. ACCORDING to Wikipedia there are many variations of anarchists, even non violent ones.

So what does that say about Anarchy?

Maybe the term is too vague. Maybe it's out of date and needs a reformation.

I wouldn't be so quick to give up on America. With the right minds working together it can be brilliant. At least I can walk outside through the woods. I can swim in the ocean. I can write.

So?



Yes, it is vague and out of date. And it's true that not all anarchists are moral/ethical. There are more specific terms but "anarchy" encompasses other philosophies besides my own personal beliefs. I didn't want to exclude other types of anarchists, even though it's starting to look like I am alone anyway.

I never said we should give up on America. The state and the people are not the same. I truly hope America will move past this religion of statism and embrace freedom and cooperation.

You can walk in the woods and swim and write in a free society. Those are not benefits of statism. That is freedom. You do those things despite government, not because of it.




Interesting.

I agree.

Do you know what looks appealing to me these days?

The egalitarian and meritocratic society currently forming in America.


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: XUL]
    #19084410 - 11/04/13 07:54 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

XUL said:
Quote:

TheShroomingAtheis said:
I am an anarchist.  System of common morality(don't do what will hurt others) and no leaders. Pretty simple.





Quote:

Enlil said:
Simple, maybe, but not functional in a society larger than a few people. 

Human nature doesn't recognize a "common morality."





I agree with Enlil. It seems to me if anarchy is worth while then it would technically be a "good" thing if we all converted to anarchy. The problem is that nobody would agree and we might end up with a bunch of communes battling with each other. It seems primitive.

Hypothetically speaking....

Imagine America has turned into a massive nation based on anarchy, communes every where; maybe even peace. But what happens when another country decides to come in and kill us all yet we have no leaders?

They would come in and rape all our wives and daughters but there would be no way to stop it because the lack of organization.

What does anarchy say about that?

Counterpoint?



First, I'd like to point out that every time this country was legitimately attacked by foreigners, it was a direct result of US foreign policy. Without the state we would be less likely to be invaded.

However, in the event that we are, it would be advantageous to have a decentralized defense. Think about a horse: cut off the head and it dies. Control the head and you control the whole animal. Now compare myc. Cut a piece off and you have taken is a piece, which will grow back.

We see this in Afghanistan today where poor cave dwellers have fended off the largest and most well funded military on Earth for over a decade.


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: MaxwellSmart]
    #19084449 - 11/04/13 08:09 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

MaxwellSmart said:
First, I'd like to point out that every time this country was legitimately attacked by foreigners, it was a direct result of US foreign policy. Without the state we would be less likely to be invaded.




And every time a woman is legitimately raped, it is a direct result of what she is wearing...


Way to blame the victim, dude.


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: Enlil]
    #19084513 - 11/04/13 08:38 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

MaxwellSmart said:
First, I'd like to point out that every time this country was legitimately attacked by foreigners, it was a direct result of US foreign policy. Without the state we would be less likely to be invaded.




And every time a woman is legitimately raped, it is a direct result of what she is wearing...


Way to blame the victim, dude.



You can't be serious. I am certainly not blaming the victims. I am blaming the federal government.


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: MaxwellSmart]
    #19084524 - 11/04/13 08:41 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Another deterrent for armed conflict is good trade relations. Without taxation and bureaucracy. goods would be cheaper, increasing exports.


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: Enlil]
    #19084677 - 11/04/13 09:31 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

MaxwellSmart said:
First, I'd like to point out that every time this country was legitimately attacked by foreigners, it was a direct result of US foreign policy. Without the state we would be less likely to be invaded.




And every time a woman is legitimately raped, it is a direct result of what she is wearing...


Way to blame the victim, dude.



The federal government actually benefits from attacks. It gives them an opportunity to expand in size and scope.


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: XUL]
    #19084817 - 11/04/13 10:23 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

XUL said:
Quote:

MaxwellSmart said:
Quote:

Eddeee said:
True Anarchy is having complete mutual respect and love for all your fellow human beings. But if you fuck me over I fuck you over worse



YES!!




I wouldn't be so sure of that. ACCORDING to Wikipedia there are many variations of anarchists, even non violent ones.

So what does that say about Anarchy?

Maybe the term is too vague. Maybe it's out of date and needs a reformation.

I wouldn't be so quick to give up on America. With the right minds working together it can be brilliant. At least I can walk outside through the woods. I can swim in the ocean. I can write.

So?



The term is very Vague. Anarchy is more of a state of mind like Christianity or Islam.  Its not something you can truly grasp. I mentioned before its only doable for short periods of time. Im sure there is some Anarchy going on some where in Syria at he moment.
I lived with the Y2K nuts. an anarchist group living in the middle of no where with no rules only Morals, expecting a major computer crash and civilization to crumble to the point of having to start over. Ha ha ha I never thought that could happen but it was a good ride. It was for a time Utopia but although peaceful it eventually crated its own little form of government. and with that Anarchy ends. The only way to have Anarchy is to live with out any human contact, become a hermit in the woods.

If it was not for America and there Freedom I would not be able to live as an Anarchist. God bless America.


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: MaxwellSmart]
    #19084956 - 11/04/13 11:11 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

MaxwellSmart said:
Quote:

XUL said:
Quote:

TheShroomingAtheis said:
I am an anarchist.  System of common morality(don't do what will hurt others) and no leaders. Pretty simple.





Quote:

Enlil said:
Simple, maybe, but not functional in a society larger than a few people. 

Human nature doesn't recognize a "common morality."





I agree with Enlil. It seems to me if anarchy is worth while then it would technically be a "good" thing if we all converted to anarchy. The problem is that nobody would agree and we might end up with a bunch of communes battling with each other. It seems primitive.

Hypothetically speaking....

Imagine America has turned into a massive nation based on anarchy, communes every where; maybe even peace. But what happens when another country decides to come in and kill us all yet we have no leaders?

They would come in and rape all our wives and daughters but there would be no way to stop it because the lack of organization.

What does anarchy say about that?

Counterpoint?



First, I'd like to point out that every time this country was legitimately attacked by foreigners, it was a direct result of US foreign policy. Without the state we would be less likely to be invaded.

However, in the event that we are, it would be advantageous to have a decentralized defense. Think about a horse: cut off the head and it dies. Control the head and you control the whole animal. Now compare myc. Cut a piece off and you have taken is a piece, which will grow back.

We see this in Afghanistan today where poor cave dwellers have fended off the largest and most well funded military on Earth for over a decade.





That is a nice point. Especially the part about Afghanistan.

It seems hard too exactly define one's self. Rather there seems to be a fluidity about our choices and what we believe.

One thing I believe in is the power of words more than anything.


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: XUL]
    #19085241 - 11/04/13 12:46 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

People who believe Anarchism is just a bunch of snooty, self-entitled, punk-ass, teens; Seriously need a history lesson.



There also appears to be allot of misconceptions on what Anarchism really represents, as usual. I'd like to provide this short, easy to understand video that accurately describes the philosophy of classical Anarchists, who shouldn't be confused with ignorant children calling themselves the name. 



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Edited by Smokey420 (11/04/13 01:31 PM)


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: Smokey420]
    #19086266 - 11/04/13 04:58 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Enlil, sorry buddy no hard feelings, but just because we have a little disagreement on a political debate on the internet, that doesn't give you the right to tell me to leave this post and hang out with the conspiracy theorist. Thats somthing the communist do.


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: T-Funkadelic]
    #19086289 - 11/04/13 05:02 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

For your convenience, I have quoted the relevant rule below:

"4) This is not the place to discuss conspiracy theories.  There is a conspiracy theory forum dedicated to conspiracy theory discussion.  Continually derailing threads by trolling them with conspiracy theory garbage will result in a ban from the political discussion forum."

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/1333585

If you don't like the rules, you're free to go to another site with rules that you do like.  If you choose to stay at this site, you should follow the rules.


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: Smokey420]
    #19086372 - 11/04/13 05:18 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

lol, I never mentioned conspiracy's. You did, I just told you what I thought. This is good old America... free speach! RIGHT?


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: T-Funkadelic]
    #19086379 - 11/04/13 05:19 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Why do you keep replying to me in your argument with Enlil? :jimmies:


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: Smokey420]
    #19086458 - 11/04/13 05:34 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Sorry I didn't try to reply to you.  Im in a terminal waiting on a flight with bad phone service. Phone keeps freezing up.


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: T-Funkadelic]
    #19086673 - 11/04/13 06:28 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Illuminati bullshit is a conspiracy theory...Yes...you mentioned it.

And freedom of speech doesn't apply here.  The site is not a government site.


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: T-Funkadelic]
    #19086719 - 11/04/13 06:37 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Im someone who questions authority in detail. I obey laws that make since. The ones I don't agree with I break daily. Im 36 with no record at all not even a misdemeanor. And I am a good person I will not let the government hold me back from living my life.. fuck some of their laws Im a human and if I want to do something that has no consequences to anyone Else, Im doing it straight up no questions Im not there sheep so I guess Im an evil anarchist lol.


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: T-Funkadelic] * 1
    #19086721 - 11/04/13 06:37 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

T-Funkadellic said:
Im someone who questions authority in detail. I obey laws that make since. The ones I don't agree with I break daily. Im 36 with no record at all not even a misdemeanor. And I am a good person I will not let the government hold me back from living my life.. fuck some of their laws Im a human and if I want to do something that has no consequences to anyone Else, Im doing it straight up no questions Im not there sheep so I guess Im an evil anarchist lol.




A victim of public education


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InvisibleT-Funkadelic
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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: T-Funkadelic]
    #19086732 - 11/04/13 06:40 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Lol I love you man... you got a hard on for me?


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: T-Funkadelic] * 1
    #19086746 - 11/04/13 06:43 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Not at all.  I want you to make a coherent point that I can slaughter if necessary.  Or support.  The post I quoted was borderline gibberish.  We deserve better.


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: MaxwellSmart]
    #19087290 - 11/04/13 08:32 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I'd just like to point out that Anarcho-Capitalism is inherently a false ideology. Anarchism has always and forever been against all forms of hierarchical power structures. Capitalism is inherently a class based system, which creates hierarchical power structures.


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: Smokey420]
    #19087368 - 11/04/13 08:57 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Anarchy completely ignores human nature.

1) It might work on a small scale, but get enough people in the mix and you get some socio-paths/whacko's that abuse the system and cause great harm before they are discovered.

A perfect example are hippy communes of the 60's. 

2)  Nature abhors a vaccuum.  No leader?  A state with no leader is a perfect target for a charismatic, likable figurehead with the socio-psychopathic features I mentioned in 1) to step in and take over. 

As far as conspiracy and illuminati mentioned in earlier posts, well duh.  Everyone knows Lizard type alien shape-shifters have taken control of the government.  they also run the deep freeze in South America, where the still alive in suspended animation bodies of Hitler, Elvis, and Kurt Cobain are.  :smirk:


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: starfire_xes]
    #19087391 - 11/04/13 09:05 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

It worked during the Spanish civil war until Stalin realized their influence and turned his guns against them. Watch the videos I posted.


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: Smokey420]
    #19089195 - 11/05/13 09:28 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Yes Smokey420, and of course all true Scotsmen love haggis. Semantic arguments are boring but if you insist, I will address this once more. Language changes over time. What we call "liberal" today is not what people would have meant 200 years ago when they said it. Many of our words have broader, narrower, or completely different meanings than they did in the past (e.g. conservative, privacy, security, welfare, etc). Anarchy is the general name for any non state doctrine. I wantd to include all schools. That is why I was not more specific in the title. Having said that...

Today we call Proudon types Anarcho Communist, or AnCom. Frankly, I see this ideas as generally contradictory. They obviously impose rules, but the etymology claims that they're against rulers. How are you going to choose and enforce rules without coercion and thus, rulers?  If it is coercive, it is a government. If everyone gets a vote, is is a democracy. If your goals include eliminating social classes and private property, you are communist. This is basically the antithesis of statelessness.

AnCaps are truly against rulers. No one forces themselves onto others. The only legitimate coercion occurs as a response to a breach of another's rights.


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: Smokey420]
    #19089452 - 11/05/13 10:44 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Smokey420 said:
Capitalism is inherently a class based system




This is, of course, bullshit.  As a pure system capitalism is blind to class.  All that matters is production.  Classism perverts capitalism.


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: starfire_xes]
    #19089725 - 11/05/13 11:57 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

starfire_xes said:
Anarchy completely ignores human nature.

1) It might work on a small scale, but get enough people in the mix and you get some socio-paths/whacko's that abuse the system and cause great harm before they are discovered.

A perfect example are hippy communes of the 60's. 

2)  Nature abhors a vaccuum.  No leader?  A state with no leader is a perfect target for a charismatic, likable figurehead with the socio-psychopathic features I mentioned in 1) to step in and take over. 

As far as conspiracy and illuminati mentioned in earlier posts, well duh.  Everyone knows Lizard type alien shape-shifters have taken control of the government.  they also run the deep freeze in South America, where the still alive in suspended animation bodies of Hitler, Elvis, and Kurt Cobain are.  :smirk:




Im a bit of a socialistic anarchist

Freedom, Helping each other, Tolerance in every law

The duty of the state/gov is to ensure freedom

to only be there when needed

which means it shouldnt exist most of the time

minimal state

(something is obviously gonna need to be taxed so we can keep police/fire dept etc.
I dont mind paying taxes... but I dont want a too big gov either, with too much control of our lives)


Edited by lessismore (11/05/13 12:03 PM)


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InvisibleHalfLight
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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19091037 - 11/05/13 04:36 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Smokey420 said:
Capitalism is inherently a class based system




This is, of course, bullshit.  As a pure system capitalism is blind to class.  All that matters is production.  Classism perverts capitalism.



:whathesaid:

Also Smokey, your apparent wishes for a system without classes is pretty unrealistic and just doesn't make any sense.
Though you may hate it, there is a reason that a large portion of wealthy people view poor receiving benefits such as social welfare as freeloaders, moochers, etc.
A system that would be more realistic and reasonable than socialism (though still probably not going to happen) is one that provides completely equal opportunity - and lack of oppression -  to all its citizens, leaving it up to individuals to take advantage of what is given to them.
Then we would really know who the bottom feeders are, and who deserves what they have.
Still, almost certainly never going to happen unless the human consciousness is recreated digitally or some shit :lol:

Anarchy also isn't going to provide equality in any traditional sense, though it would be more fair than any system with imperfect government.
In complete anarchy, everything is up to chance.
You have an equal chance of being born into a commune in control of fertile land, with decent resources and ability to defend itself as you do have a chance to be born to an AIDS-bearing/crack-smoking mother, kidnapped to become a sex slave for your childhood, only to be cannibalized before you even get the chance to die of starvation or the disease you were born with.
Second example sounds pretty shitty, right?
Well, similar situations happen in places with inefficient governments, and sometimes in places with (semi)functional governments.
The difference is, there isn't an entity that existed long before you did which you have no representation in, giving preferential treatment to a small portion of the population whose individuals have wealth that you and your entire family will only touch fractions of altogether in your combined lifespans.

Might sound like I'm pro-anarchy, but it's not going to happen on a significant scale or for a significant amount of time, so we should instead work on improving systems which are in existence or have a possibility of occurring in the future.


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: lessismore]
    #19091060 - 11/05/13 04:43 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

mio said:
Quote:

starfire_xes said:
Anarchy completely ignores human nature.

1) It might work on a small scale, but get enough people in the mix and you get some socio-paths/whacko's that abuse the system and cause great harm before they are discovered.

A perfect example are hippy communes of the 60's. 

2)  Nature abhors a vaccuum.  No leader?  A state with no leader is a perfect target for a charismatic, likable figurehead with the socio-psychopathic features I mentioned in 1) to step in and take over. 

As far as conspiracy and illuminati mentioned in earlier posts, well duh.  Everyone knows Lizard type alien shape-shifters have taken control of the government.  they also run the deep freeze in South America, where the still alive in suspended animation bodies of Hitler, Elvis, and Kurt Cobain are.  :smirk:




Im a bit of a socialistic anarchist

Freedom, Helping each other, Tolerance in every law

The duty of the state/gov is to ensure freedom

to only be there when needed

which means it shouldnt exist most of the time

minimal state

(something is obviously gonna need to be taxed so we can keep police/fire dept etc.
I dont mind paying taxes... but I dont want a too big gov either, with too much control of our lives)



I have no problem with people voluntarily helping each other.  In fact, that is how I think it should be done.


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19091434 - 11/05/13 05:54 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Smokey420 said:
Capitalism is inherently a class based system




This is, of course, bullshit.  As a pure system capitalism is blind to class.  All that matters is production.  Classism perverts capitalism.




Please explain this further. I think you're talking about communism.
Capitalism has never been intended as a class free society.


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: Smokey420]
    #19091454 - 11/05/13 05:58 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Intention has nothing to do with it.  Capitalism has no intentions and class is of no consequence.  Either you produce or you do not produce.  You are confusing capitalism with cronyism, which is a feature of socialist and communist systems.


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19091507 - 11/05/13 06:09 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Yeah... Give me an example from history of a class free capitalist society.


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InvisibleHalfLight
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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: Smokey420]
    #19091548 - 11/05/13 06:16 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Give me an example of a class free society :lol:



No one responds to my long posts! :bitch:


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: Smokey420]
    #19091572 - 11/05/13 06:20 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Smokey420 said:
Yeah... Give me an example from history of a class free capitalist society.



Give me an example of a capitalist society.


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19091656 - 11/05/13 06:34 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

You're living in the biggest capitalist society of all time....US mother fucking A.


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InvisibleHalfLight
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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: Smokey420]
    #19091675 - 11/05/13 06:37 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Smokey420 said:
You're living in the biggest capitalist society of all time....US mother fucking A.





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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: Smokey420]
    #19091690 - 11/05/13 06:40 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Smokey420 said:
You're living in the biggest capitalist society of all time....US mother fucking A.



Sadly, no.


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19091696 - 11/05/13 06:42 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Give me an example of a capitalist society.



:thumbup: You and I are not quite on the same page but we're in the same book.


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19091844 - 11/05/13 07:05 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

You're right, your version of capitalism has never existed. See unlike your flawed utopian vision of society, mine has actually existed and flourished; that is until State Communists, the people who you seem to think I'm in line with, destroyed it and murdered or imprisoned all that remained.  It's only flaw was lack of a military power in comparison to the soviets and Franco.



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Edited by Smokey420 (11/05/13 07:08 PM)


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: Smokey420]
    #19091853 - 11/05/13 07:07 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Smokey420 said:
You're right, your version of capitalism has never existed. See unlike your flawed utopian vision of society, mine has actually existed and flourished; that is until State Communists, the people who you seem to think I'm in line with, destroyed it and murdered or imprisoned all that remained.  It's only flaw was lack of a military power in comparison to the soviets and Franco.




What example is that?  I could use a howling laugh


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19091866 - 11/05/13 07:09 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

edited with video. You could use a nice history lesson.


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: Smokey420]
    #19091950 - 11/05/13 07:22 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Gorge Orwell also has a great account of the spanish revolution that I will attempt to find. Orwell himself fought in the war.


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: Smokey420]
    #19091970 - 11/05/13 07:25 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

:lolsy:


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19091985 - 11/05/13 07:27 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Laughing at your own ignorance of history?


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: Smokey420]
    #19091993 - 11/05/13 07:29 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Here is his account in full, free of charge.
http://libcom.org/library/homage-to-catalonia-george-orwell


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: Smokey420]
    #19092035 - 11/05/13 07:34 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

How, exactly, did they flourish?


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19092041 - 11/05/13 07:35 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Watch the fucking video, or read Orwell's account.
I don't have the time, or desire to type out a full history essay for you.


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: Smokey420]
    #19092060 - 11/05/13 07:38 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I ma not watching a long video and I am not reading a whole book.  How exactly did it flourish?  Answer, it didn't.


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19092074 - 11/05/13 07:41 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Yeah, just ignore history to fit your own narrative. Good going.
It's not my job or desire to teach you anything, you wanted an example, I gave you two great resources.


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Edited by Smokey420 (11/05/13 07:42 PM)


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: Smokey420]
    #19092096 - 11/05/13 07:45 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Smokey420 said:
Yeah... Give me an example from history of a class free capitalist society.





Here is an example of what some term a 'class free' society:

Joe biden gets up at Matha's vineyard, and gives a speech with multi-millionaires like John Kerry and Nancy Pelosi cheering him on...they are served $50 a pound imported beef, have $300 a bottle fine wines, movie stars and pop singers providing entertainment, and Joe Biden's speech is about how the republicans are out of touch with the little guy.....

:lolsy::highfive::crazybeard::smug::rofl2:


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: starfire_xes]
    #19092110 - 11/05/13 07:47 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

You think I like democrats? :lolsy:


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: Smokey420]
    #19095049 - 11/06/13 12:03 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

How can you say they flourished if they didn't even last a full Presidential term?


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19095147 - 11/06/13 12:30 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

They flourished until Stalin turned against them.
The model of society was a success, not their military strength against the soviets.


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: Smokey420]
    #19095236 - 11/06/13 12:49 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Smokey420 said:
They flourished until Stalin turned against them.
The model of society was a success, not their military strength against the soviets.



:rofl2:What does Stalin have to do with Spain and if they needed his support they clearly couldn't stand on their own.


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19095253 - 11/06/13 12:53 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Smokey420 said:
They flourished until Stalin turned against them.
The model of society was a success, not their military strength against the soviets.



:rofl2:What does Stalin have to do with Spain and if they needed his support they clearly couldn't stand on their own.




Again, showing your lack of knowledge of the history.

Do a little research on the Spanish civil war.
This was a lead up to WWII, the allies were at one point united against Franco, who was backed by Hitler.


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: Smokey420]
    #19095305 - 11/06/13 01:04 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Smokey420 said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Smokey420 said:
They flourished until Stalin turned against them.
The model of society was a success, not their military strength against the soviets.



:rofl2:What does Stalin have to do with Spain and if they needed his support they clearly couldn't stand on their own.




Again, showing your lack of knowledge of the history.

Do a little research on the Spanish civil war.
This was a lead up to WWII, the allies were at one point united against Franco, who was backed by Hitler.



Let me ask again.  Why should they need any support from Stalin if they were flourishing on their own?


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19095357 - 11/06/13 01:16 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

They didn't have any support from Stalin, the soviets were in Spain fighting against Franco, alongside many other factions. Eventually, Stalin decided to purge the allies of those he considered "counter revolutionary"  The anarchists had no outside funding, the only weapons they had were made from their collectivized factories, or taken from dead enemies.

Many historians speculate this purge was the reason Franco won the war in Spain.


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Edited by Smokey420 (11/06/13 01:22 PM)


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: Smokey420]
    #19096343 - 11/06/13 04:49 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

So?  You said they were flourishing.  Clearly they were not.


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19096441 - 11/06/13 05:07 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Why should I keep debating with you, if you're not even going to do any research on the topic at hand?
Its become clear you didnt even know the spanish civil war had ever happened before I brought it up.


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: Smokey420]
    #19096542 - 11/06/13 05:24 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Smokey420 said:
Why should I keep debating with you, if you're not even going to do any research on the topic at hand?
Its become clear you didnt even know the spanish civil war had ever happened before I brought it up.




:lolsy:I knew it had happened and that the batshit crazy Hemingway and some other starry eyed assholes were involved.  I just never heard anybody try to argue that it somehow flourished.  It didn't do anything of the kind if it had to be propped up by the one of the biggest mass murderers in history.


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19096655 - 11/06/13 05:44 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Again, the soviets never propped up any Anarchists. You need to stop rewriting history to fit your narrative. By the way, Gorge Orwell was possibly the biggest critic of the soviet union in known history. His famous novel, Animal Farm, played a big part in swaying public opinion
against the USSR, which was a major US ally at the time. Orwell himself faught alongside the Anarchists , and took a bullet fighting against Franco's fascist army.


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: Smokey420]
    #19096795 - 11/06/13 06:10 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

You're the one who said they collapsed because Stalin withdrew his support.


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: zappaisgod] * 1
    #19096835 - 11/06/13 06:17 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Re read.
I said they collapsed because Stalin purged the allies, killed thousands of them, and sent the rest to the gulags.


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