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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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A quote from William James.
    #3508320 -

"It takes...a mind debauched by learning to carry the process of making the natural seem strange, so far as to ask for the why of any instinctive human act. To the metaphysician alone can such questions occur as: Why do we smile, when pleased, and not scowl? Why are we unable to talk to a crowd as we talk to a single friend? Why does a particular maiden turn our wits so upside-down? The common man can only say, Of course we smile, of course our heart palpitates at the sight of a crowd, of course we love the maiden, that beautiful soul clad in that perfect form, so palpably and flagrantly made for all eternity to be loved!

And so, probably, does each animal feel about the particular things it tends to do in the presence of particular objects. ... To the lion it is the lioness which is made to be loved; to the bear, the she-bear. To the broody hen the notion would probably seem monstrous that there should be a creature in the world to whom a nestful of eggs was not the utterly fascinating and precious never-to-be-too-much-sat-upon object which it is to her.

Thus we may be sure that, however mysterious some animals' instincts may appear to us, our instincts will appear no less mysterious to them."

William James, 1890


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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Re: A quote from William James. [Re: Phluck]
    #3508374 -

There is no aspect of our character that we cannot change. Those things we do "naturally" we in fact choose to do, but then people can no longer blame the heavens for their own weaknesses. We choose to be cowards, and we choose not to be.

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Re: A quote from William James. [Re: the_phoenix]
    #3508387 -

See my thread on free will.


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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Re: A quote from William James. [Re: the_phoenix]
    #3508400 -

Also, would you argue that we aren't naturally programmed to do the things outlined in the quote?


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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Re: A quote from William James. [Re: Phluck]
    #3508435 -

What I interpret pheonix to be saying is, is that even as we choose to see the good in a friend we are comfortable with, we can choose to see the good in a stranger and even a crowd of strangers and feel comfortable in that.

Sure, there may be some instinctive programming to see anything new or strange to us as a potential threat but it does not mean that we can not choose to over ride that programming.

With choice and the freedom to choose, just by choosing to look at something differently we free ourselves from the potential confines of the past view. In that new freedom from the old confines we can create new potentials for outcomes.


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

Edited by gettinjiggywithit (12/16/04 01:29 PM)

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Re: A quote from William James. [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3508493 -

Sure, there may be some instinctive programming to see anything new or strange to us as a potential threat but it does not mean that we can not choose to over ride that programming.

How do we know that the fact that some make this choice is not the result of another set of programmed instructions?


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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Re: A quote from William James. [Re: Phluck]
    #3508562 -

hahahaha I think about that too. I reason that the programmer must either be myself on another level of consciousness running this idea of "me" around to experience things it wishes to or that there is an ultimate programmer of some sort wich if I am created from it I must be a part of it so its plan is my plan. What ever IT is is freely choosing. I might as well be an extension of the consciousness of that larger IT that is making free choices.

Maybe come at it from the other angle. What would be the purpose or point of active conscious life forms with no freedom to choose for itself within its own realm of consciousness-even if it is just thoughts?


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: A quote from William James. [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3508817 -

What would be the purpose or point of active conscious life forms with no freedom to choose for itself within its own realm of consciousness-even if it is just thoughts?

What's the purpose of a boulder that just sits there? We exist because that's what happened.

There doesn't have to be purpose, or choice, these are just ideas created as a result of the layout of our minds.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Re: A quote from William James. [Re: Phluck]
    #3508856 -

I agree with that. It fits in perfectly with what I am going to reply in tell me what you know for certain post.

However, you just changed your own subject and answered your own question at the same time based on the layout of your mind.

I love this stuff. I think it's what keeps wonder alive.

Good luck answering the free will question. All we can do is rationalise through things.

Would you say you are programmed by the layout of your mind? Who layed out your mind for you? Did that something have the freedom to choose your mind layout or was it programmed to do it as such? What programmed that programmer to do it? Was it free to make that decision?

This could go on for ever. It's quite mind fuck really, but a fun one to entertain on occasion.


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

Edited by gettinjiggywithit (12/16/04 04:04 PM)

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Re: A quote from William James. [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3509296 -

I don't think we're "programmed", per se. It's just difficult to find a better word to describe the mechanisms of the brain.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Re: A quote from William James. [Re: Phluck]
    #3509331 -

I hear ya. I think that word was being used as a substitue for instinct or learned behavior. In this case , trial and error experience is the "silent" programmer. I still beleive we can over ride it though.


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: A quote from William James. [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3511519 -

Ah... the ol' "What if we are determined to have free will?"

Yeah... that's where MY faith comes into the picture.
Remember that the question of free will vs. determinism is a flawed one.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: A quote from William James. [Re: Sclorch]
    #3511580 -

Indeed,

I would rather carry on as if we do, because I would rather have a false sense of empowerment that makes me beleive I can effect desired changed in my life versus being like, fuck it, I can be a reckless careless ass and just blame it on instinct and some puppet in the sky controlling me.

The alternative is just lame.

Live two weeks in each mode of beleif and see what results you like better. Living by the second will probably land your ass in paranoia or jail.

Now I am sitting here thinking, I can choose one or the other but maybe it is not me freely making this choice? WTF?

I reccomend that no one spend to much time on this one at a time.  :crazy2:


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: A quote from William James. [Re: Phluck]
    #3511593 -

I am currently taking a class on Pragmatism, so I am studying James in depth. He's a smart, sensible fellow. :thumbup:


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"I'm afraid of losing my obscurity. Genuineness only thrives in the dark. Like celery."
- Aldous Huxley

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Re: A quote from William James. [Re: TinTree]
    #3511678 -

He's like Nietzsche Lite!


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: A quote from William James. [Re: Sclorch]
    #3511872 -

I beg to differ... he has useful things to offer beyond an egomaniacal distrust of anything that isn't himself :wink:
Well, perhaps, that's a little unfair to Nietzsche, but eh. It's not like he's gonna get offended.


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"I'm afraid of losing my obscurity. Genuineness only thrives in the dark. Like celery."
- Aldous Huxley

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Re: A quote from William James. [Re: Sclorch]
    #3512003 -

Nietzsche is dead. -God



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Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

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Re: A quote from William James. [Re: TinTree]
    #3512147 -

TinTree said:
I beg to differ... he has useful things to offer beyond an egomaniacal distrust of anything that isn't himself :wink:
Well, perhaps, that's a little unfair to Nietzsche, but eh. It's not like he's gonna get offended.


Nah... he wouldn't get offended.  But you've still got him all wrong.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: A quote from William James. [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #3512606 -

LOL. :yesnod: That's great.


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Computer games don't affect kids. I mean if Pacman affected our generation as kids, we'd all be running around in a darkened room, munching pills and listening to repetitive electronic music.

"Being bitter and hateful is like drinking a vial of poison and hoping the other person gets sick" FreakQLibrium

"My motto from here on out is: If someone or something (including me) in my life is conducting themselves in such a way that they can be seen on Jerry Springer, it's time to take out the garbage!!! When you stop taking their behaviour personally and see their antics as a true reflection on their character, it becomes absolutely nauseating." Anon. on abusive relationships.

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Re: A quote from William James. [Re: Phluck]
    #3515108 -

well phluck, you can keep telling yourself that your just the sum of innumerable causes and that all your actions are dictated by programming and you have no free will. and maybe on an intellectual level you are right.

but, that doesnt change the fact that their is no aspect of that programming, that once it is brought to a level of conciouss awareness, cannot be conciously alterd or changed. we are only slaves to our programming for as long as we are not aware of it.

it is true that most of our lives are composed of animal like habitual behaviour devoid of concious thought, BUT it is also true that if we intentionally foster concious awareness and analyze our own behaviour, we can alter and change it.


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Everything I post is fiction.

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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