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Offlineoneoverzero
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How does one know Syncronicity from Coincidence?
    #345583 - 06/21/01 12:14 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Firstly you should know a little something about me recently. I've been heavily praying, "God's will be done" and, "God guide me".

Secondly Depak Chopra once said, "Do we have to interpret everything that happens?" Also Shakti Gawain says, "Everything that happens has meaning".

And lastly now I'm a bit confused about how to recognize MEANINGFUL syncronicities from MEANINGLESS coincidences.

How does one pull the SIGNAL out from the NOISE?

Get to the Heart of Soul


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Offlinegribochek
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Re: How does one know Syncronicity from Coincidence? [Re: oneoverzero]
    #345827 - 06/21/01 09:41 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

You don't distinguish. They are the same thing.

enlightenment is as easy as doing nothing


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OfflinePhyl
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Re: How does one know Syncronicity from Coincidence? [Re: oneoverzero]
    #345874 - 06/21/01 11:27 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

If everything is connected, there are no coincidences.



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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: How does one know Syncronicity from Coincidence? [Re: oneoverzero]
    #345883 - 06/21/01 11:33 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

The essence of the religious mind is this very thing: to discern the meaning in all things. Of course, even here, pathology can intrude, whereby one reads meanings into things in a paranoic way. Aside from this however, synchronicity as the Chinese have elaborated, and how CG Jung, with the help of Richard Wilhelm has described this "acausal connecting principle," is the correspondance between inner psychic events and outer physical events (or with 'outer' psychic events such as telepathy - the same thought occurring simultaneously in two people). I was at odds with all 3 of my Jungian analysts because I came to view synchronicities as more important than dreams. They became for me a kind of "manna from Heaven." "Man does not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God," applies, in that the quest for and finding of meaning in these events suggests that it is ALL meaningfully interconnected even though we only see it in bits and pieces. Further, that behind it all is the Divine Author, penning the sub-plots of our human lives within the Grand Scheme of Creation. I find this notion quite sustaining. The temporal mind, trapped in moment-to-moment duration (like cars in a traffic jam), allows for limited perspective. However, under the aspect of eternity (sub specie aeternitatis), one can perceive the origination, duration and dissolution all at once (like viewing the traffic jam from a helicopter). Most of us are just not Awake most of the time, or life would be the ecstatic trip that we all Know it potentially is. Read Jung's paper 'Synchronicity: An Acaual Connecting Principle,' or 'The Secret of the Golden Flower: A Chinese Book of Life' by Richard Wilhelm. Jung's main shortcoming is his failure to include the category of Superconsciousness and relegates the highest or deepest experiences to the Center of the Unconscious (Self). Ken Wilber refers to this common mistake among writers on mysticism as the "Pre-Trans Fallacy" - confusing the union with impersonal unconsciousness with the higher union of transpersonal superconsciousness. His work is, nevertheless, groundbreaking for Westerners and helpful as far as it goes. Peace.



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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlinegribochek
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Re: How does one know Syncronicity from Coincidence? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #346536 - 06/22/01 09:35 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Markos, you are way to phylosophical for me to understand :)

Oneoverzero, what you are trying to do leads directly to schitzofrenia(sp?) and other insanities. Be carefull. Stop looking for meaning, there isn't any.


enlightenment is as easy as doing nothing


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Offlinegnrm23
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Re: How does one know Syncronicity from Coincidence? [Re: gribochek]
    #346606 - 06/22/01 12:12 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

yeah, markos...
what the heck is a phylosophical, psychological, and spiritual type of person doing in a spirituality & philosophy oriented forum, anyhow???
mmmmm, philos sophia---love of knowledge?
hope you & yr lady have a marvelous excursion to mother africa...
salaam...



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Offlinegribochek
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Re: How does one know Syncronicity from Coincidence? [Re: gnrm23]
    #346662 - 06/22/01 02:03 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

I am sorry. Didn't mean to imply that Marcos shouldn't be phylosophical, simly said I didn't understand him. It must be my problem, 'cause thick books and words like "supermind" don't excite me too much.

Cheers all.

enlightenment is as easy as doing nothing


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Offlinegnrm23
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Re: How does one know Syncronicity from Coincidence? [Re: gribochek]
    #346668 - 06/22/01 02:20 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

gnrmi wuz jus' teasin' ya both
fond regards/gnrmsh



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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: How does one know Syncronicity from Coincidence? [Re: gnrm23]
    #346680 - 06/22/01 02:38 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Thanks gnrm23! Unfortunately, it is a trip to visit my lady's long-lost father (and family) whom we met for the first time in London last summer. So this won't be any safari to the Serengeti, but a trip to Lagos, Nigeria - supposed to be the 5th largest city on the planet by 2005. Even the travel guide gives a dismal and dangerous picture. You know how optimists see the glass half full, and pessimists see it half empty? Well mine is half empty, and there's a bug in it. :) Hopefully I'll get to a computer there. He is a well known electrical engineer and professor. I'm gonna look for some Yoruba religious items for myself and a Santero I know in Miami (whose Orishas are of Yoruba origin). Possibly be taken to a mosque for the first time. Then, flying to Port Harcourt to visit another relative who is a Chief in the Ibo tribe
(I understand he and his wife are Christian, so he won't have more than one wife. Took shots for Tetanus, Typhoid, Hepatitis A, Yellow Fever, and tablets for Malaria (which is epidemic). There is a current Cholera epidemic there, and no vaccine available in the U.S. Taking Cipro tabs, and a swiss-made water filter. [An Afterword on MDMA: Careful what promises you make when the 4th and 5th chakras open. The use of duct tape over one's mouth is advised for people of integrity who do not break promises]. Salaam Alechem.



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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlinegnrm23
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Re: How does one know Syncronicity from Coincidence? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #346709 - 06/22/01 03:32 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

whew... urbanism in world perspective indeed...
well, safe journeying to, there, and fro... (and may any bugs that bite you die, heh...)
& don't fergit to take off yr shoes when you enter the mosque ;) ... mebbe a darwish will give pointers in reciting zhikr, mmmm? .....la illah 'lla hu.... (my, it has been way too long since i have seen pir vilayat khan, lost my copy of _toward the one_ way too long since... what a world, what a world...)
~~~
"where are you from, boy?"
"nairobi, ma'am; isn't everybody?"
(from that vintage motion picture _babes in khaki_ starring george tirebiter and ida lupino...)
~~~
(sound of a jet: ssssuuuuuuffffffffffff...)(so saith idries shah)
~~~
excuse me son, could i see some ID please?
~~~
is vanilla & chocolate together a swirl? keep it cool, mon...
///gnrmi



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Offlinegribochek
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Re: How does one know Syncronicity from Coincidence? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #346733 - 06/22/01 04:21 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Wow, man! Now that's a fucking trip! Not your usual take-acid-see-colors-for-a-day, but a real trip, the trip worthy of the Traveler... (I'm thinking of starting my own religeous sect, worsippers of The Great Traveller... anyway...)

So I've been meaning to ask... where do you find ladies whose long lost parents are from Lagos Nigeria and other relatives are chiefs (christian??????) of african tribes?

Ditto on the promices. Whatever numbers those chakras are, dunno, but I almost married someone once... She was smart though, she knew it wasn't right...

Wow again, good tripping to you man...

enlightenment is as easy as doing nothing


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: How does one know Syncronicity from Coincidence? [Re: gnrm23]
    #346737 - 06/22/01 04:33 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Taking a crusty 1978 Pelikan 'Koran,' Indries Shah's "Way of a Sufi,' Schuon's 'Understanding Islam,' (and leaving Toward the One at home - too heavy [I still have the poster too]). I'm also taking Dionysius the Areopagite's 'Mystical Theology and the Divine Names, 'cause he and his German wife of 30 years both queried me on the Trinity. She is a Christian. They were appreciative of theologian John McQuarrie's description of the doctrine - dynamism in the 'economia' of the Godhead - not a monolithic oneness, or as Augustine once said, "...an infinite sea of grey tapioca" (did Augustine say that?). If God is Love, there must be poles between which that love is exchanged plus the love itself. Islam doesn't hold this to be legitimate, though Allah has attributes (Compassion, Mercy, Creator, Sustainer). Also gonna take Powers 'Introduction to Tibetan Buddhism' just for 'fun,' and a tiny booklet a Thai classmate gave me 20 years ago about the 'practice of samadhi' in the Theravada. Oh yeah, a pocket-sized Holy Bible. It's the rainy season, so I'm prepared to read and meditate as much as possible between socializing and traveling.
I just finished a book that I tried to read back in the early 70's - 'Mysticism: Sacred and Profane' by RC Zaehner. Utterly Profound! I hate to sound fickle but I returned a couple of books on Ramana Maharishi's Advaita, and Isherwood's 'How to Know God' to the bookshelf in favor of the Muslim-Christian books. I'm incorrigibly on the side of theistic mysticism over monistic mysticism, but the Tibetan Buddhists hold such a fascination. Their mantra sums up experiences that I've had that seems identical to the Hindu Hridayam, and the c
Catholic Sacred Heart: 'The Absolute [OM] is a Jewel [MANI] in the Lotus [PADMA] of the Heart [HUM]. And their talk of the 5 Buddha Wisdoms or Energies resonates with the Eastern Orthodox 'Uncreated Energies,' yet one is about Ultimate Being (God) and the other about an Ultimate State of Being (Sunyata). "I'M SO CONFUSED!!" - (John Travolta as Vinnie Barbarino). With my mind on these things, and my new Sony walkman filled with old Ravi Shankar ragas, a bottle of Valerian root capsules, and my Koran in hand - I hope to be alright. P.S. - Zhikr made me dizzy when I first read 'Toward the One.' Did I mention Dramamine?...



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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: How does one know Syncronicity from Coincidence? [Re: gribochek]
    #346751 - 06/22/01 04:54 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Uh...thanks gribochek...I think. Well, I don't know...I have a blond fetish, but I find myself with a Jamaican-Nigerian lady. She's a definite fox mind you, and a Cornell and U. of Maryland (one of my schools) graduate. We've been together for 5 years; I saw to it that her "soul's been psychedelicized," and encouraged the pursuit of her father who took off right after she was born. He owes her IMHO, and he's flying us over at his expense (although this is still costing a bunch on meds. Frankly, I'd rather be going to Scandinavia, or Amsterdam, or Bumfuk, Greenland for that matter, with or without my lady). Complain complain. "The more you complain, the longer God lets you live" [a bumper-sticker].



--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlinegribochek
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Re: How does one know Syncronicity from Coincidence? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #346777 - 06/22/01 05:45 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Dude, you sound like a walking library. That'd be pretty useful in a rainy season with no dry wood sources and a desparate need to light a campfire...

Please don't take this personally, but do you have to go to Oh Boy! Africa to read and meditate? I mean, don't we meditate to increase awareness? But meditating in such a majickal place is not increasing awareness, but sounds more like trying to hide out...

No wonder you are "SO CONFUSED". Stop reading and start looking around, for G-d's sake, otherwise you may end up "Old, confused and lonely, but, oh, extremely smart" (Ram Tzu).

enlightenment is as easy as doing nothing


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: How does one know Syncronicity from Coincidence? [Re: gribochek]
    #346974 - 06/22/01 11:23 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Yeah man, I will be a walking library with all these freakin' books in my suitcase and backpack. I'm completing an obligatory action, not hiding out. I read and meditate anyway, but I won't be at home with shopping and pool cleaning and swimming and lawn cutting and cooking and housecleaning and working ('cause I'm on vacation til late August). It's not at all safe to go out on the town w/o a chaperone, since it's the third world, very poor or very rich, and only 2 years removed from a military dictatorship. So, I'm gonna go 'within' instead of outside, while my lady gets to know her father. I'm only confused about the Ultimate Mysteries, and I take my wonderment at these things wherever I go, and during whatever I do when I get there. During sex it's called Tantra. I'm already old (gonna turn 48 over there on 7/9, but I'm keeping that to myself 'cause I don't want people I hardly know to feel like they have to acknowledge that), and I'm not too worried about being lonely. I've handled large stretches of loneliness - even during 9 years of a bad marriage. So I'll just keep on keepin' on like we used to say back in the day.



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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlineoneoverzero
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Re: How does one know Syncronicity from Coincidence? [Re: gribochek]
    #347014 - 06/23/01 12:30 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

gribochek, I could say, "Shut the fuck up you ignorant cunt" - but I only reserve such BASE for crack whore strawbarries, soooo I won't say that to you... I'm not sure if you are a guy or a girl...

Tantric sex hmm? Made it through the 30 min. eye contact part 1st night - then raw grinding fucking 2nd. Now as far as inner psychic connections to outer events... I'm getting alot of inner conflict about this, plus alot of irrefutable obstacles and crazy spinning interpersonal circles going 'round and 'round.

I'm at peace in any event. Gonna try to find Jung on the net.

Get to the Heart of Soul


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InvisibleKid
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Re: How does one know Syncronicity from Coincidence? [Re: oneoverzero]
    #347254 - 06/23/01 09:58 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Your (un)consciousness arbitrarily decides what is synchronicity and what is coincidence.



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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: How does one know Syncronicity from Coincidence? [Re: Kid]
    #347294 - 06/23/01 11:46 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Beg to differ. It is not arbitrary. It is teleological - purposeful. But it is not the whole story. As existentialist Victor Frankl put it, "According to Jung, something within me is religious, but it is not I who then is religious; something within me drives me to God, but it is not I who make the choice and takes the responsibility." Frankl, 1975. The deterministic unconscious drives manifested in the lower psychic centers is to be joined
by the conscious free-will manifested by the upper centers for a more complete picture. Conscious choices may appear to be arbitrary, but they too are colored by unconscious determinants. Our egos are not the Master, but the servant of the psyche. Tick-tock-tic-tock...



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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleKid
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Re: How does one know Syncronicity from Coincidence? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #347335 - 06/23/01 01:08 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

I didn't say that human decision are entirely based on the rational consciousness of Ego. Ego derives its drives from the areas of the brain that are not concsious. What I'm saying is that the ideas behind synchronicity and coincidence are simply human constructs. Synchronicity is the linking of two events that seem to have a relation and therefor bring a sense of meaning to us. Coinicidence is random, meaningless, no connection between events. Whether one perceives a coincidence or sychronicity between events is dependant upon the the unconcious beliefs as to the operation of the Universe. In your case you have religious beliefs embedded in you and may perceive synchronous events where a reductivist physicist might only see coincidence. Ultimately, I doubt that we ever know which events are "truly" synchronous or coincidental.



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Offlineoneoverzero
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Re: How does one know Syncronicity from Coincidence? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #347529 - 06/23/01 07:48 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Have read some abstracts from Jung... got some new vocabulary such as 'acausual connections' as in congruence with the physics of quantum mechanics. 'Libido' came up in those abstracts as well, connecting the dots without a seeming cause. (A different clock, btw, more like an hour glass ;)

Get to the Heart of Soul


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