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OfflineGinseng1
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Re: are synchronicities real? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8540993 - 06/19/08 02:26 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Do they have any cosmic meaning? No!




Why not?  We are living in the cosmos, and all that we see exists within, so why should synchronicities be considered apart from any meaning intrinsic to the cosmos, that is everything?  Even the fact that probabilistically, synchronicities HAVE TO HAPPEN, says alot about the cosmos.  Whichever angle one chooses to find meaning does not matter, because every angle is comprised of matter... or stucko.


Quote:

Boots said:
Anyways, coincidences happen but mean nothing except what what you apply to them.




Therefore, you can find meaning in absolutely anything your attention seeks, and there is no rule that says there exists no meaning to what you choose to seek.

Edited by Ginseng1 (06/19/08 02:31 PM)

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: are synchronicities real? [Re: Ginseng1]
    #8541006 - 06/19/08 02:34 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Therefore, you can find meaning in absolutely anything your attention seeks




So you attach arbitrary meaning to a random event and then the cosmos must then agree with that? Sounds like nothing more than egocentricity.


--------------------

Edited by OrgoneConclusion (06/19/08 04:19 PM)

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OfflineGinseng1
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Re: are synchronicities real? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8541051 - 06/19/08 02:53 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

One is not apart from the cosmos - if a person agrees with his/her own belief then that must say much about atleast a humans existance worth of cosmology.  Which takes up space/time/energy in this universe.

Might say 'nothing' more than egocentricity, but egocentricity also says alot about the cosmos.  We can say that you cannot escape from any existing meaning from within the cosmos, because everything is the cosmos.


--------------------
Flowing through beginningless time since time without beginning...

Edited by Ginseng1 (06/19/08 02:55 PM)

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OfflineBrainChemistry
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Re: are synchronicities real? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8541064 - 06/19/08 02:58 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

Therefore, you can find meaning in absolutely anything your attention seeks




So you attach arbitray meaning to a random event and then the cosmos must then agree with that? Sounds like nothing more than egocentricity.




I don't think the cosmos particularly cares. If you hear a song that means something to you at a particular time, the cosmos is gonna keep going. Its not leading you anywhere, you gotta figure that out for yourself. :thumbup:


--------------------
Word to your mom.

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Offlineyoubreakyoubuy
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Re: are synchronicities real? [Re: TameMe]
    #8541317 - 06/19/08 04:17 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

TameMe said:
or am i associating my thought to the stimulus because the stimulus triggered the thought?

or am i making the stimuli mean more than what it actually is?

why do i try to make sense our of non-sensical things?




So I’m reading this thread thinking about synchronicity….

I’m your typical lurker so I read the entire thread, try to decide something worth posting about, and then don’t post anything at all.  I switch over to iTunes to listen to some music.  I push play and the first song in my library starts playing.  It’s some world music deal that I don’t really care.  So, then I toggle shuffle mode and push play.  Out of the depths of my entire music library “Wrong Way” by Sublime is selected and starts playing.  In that split second I also notice that the length of the song is 2:16. 

Originally as a youngster heavily oriented towards the southern Baptist faith, I read the “Left Behind” series of books.  In the first book there was some significance placed on the coincidence of the antichrist character being housed in a hotel suite #216.  This was my first realization of the mathematical fact that 6X6X6=216 and that 666 is the commonly recognized “number of the beast.”  So from that moment on, in my mind the number 216 is associated with that first encounter and the broader cultural Christian context as the number of the beast, also known as the number of man.

Fast forward several years later.  I’m in a bad spot in life.  It was a March Monday afternoon and I was out walking around a local state park.  At the time I was still financially dependent on my mom and had dropped out of college the previous semester.  The Friday before I had finished my first week of work at a new job.  On my way home I got a call notifying me that I had failed my piss test.  I didn’t tell my mom and come Monday morning I left at my usual time and didn’t bother to go into work.  Instead I drove where my car took me and found myself at the state park.  I walked through the woods all morning trying to figure out what I was going to do with myself.  I had no real skills of any sort, no education, no degree, no plans, and no future.  All of this and more weighed heavily in my mind.

Into the afternoon I was beginning to retrace my steps around the park so I finally reached for my phone to see what time it was.  It was 2:16.  At the time I had been encountering the # on a fairly frequent basis but this moment out in the woods of that park solidified in my mind as beginning of the pattern of seeing this # on a frequent basis.  For a while after that I saw it everywhere.  Always when I was stoned or in some other altered state of consciousness.  I didn’t know what to think about it.  I was aware of the concept of synchronicity, being introduced to it through Carl Jung’s memoirs several months beforehand.  I also had read Baba Ram Dass’ book “Be Here Now” in what I regard as synchronistic event.  (I found it on a bookshelf in my mom’s house when in a desperate mood.  Reading that book, I believe, kept me from doing myself great harm.  The night ended in a spiritual ecstasy of a sort that I’ve yet to repeat. That night I rediscovered a faith I had forgotten that I could access.)

Following that moment on a trail in the park, I encountered the # seemingly everywhere.  It was like I was being given a message with no real way to understand the message.  Like playing some sort of RPG in which there were no ‘save points’ or repeats.  Only one life and one character and no way to tell if you are winning or losing or gaining ground or losing ground.  It was a mindfuck.  I thought I was going insane.  I was afraid that I was becoming a schizo.  I’d go to the bookstore and pick up a book on psychology and flip open to the section on schizophrenia to self-diagnose myself.  The section on schizophrenia started on page 216.  At times on long drives I’d look down and see the # on the radio.  Eventually I came to the conclusion that the number was there if I wanted it to be.  Just like the idea that your subconscious takes in all the information while your conscious mind filters it out.  Some part of me was looking for the #.

Driving cross-country to Vegas:  dropped call precisely of length precisely 2 minutes 16 seconds. 
The thought that I was going to die 6/6/06 at 2:16 in the afternoon.  I broke down that day.  I thought I could face death with some sort of dignity but no, I was a blubbering well of tears.  By the time 2:16pm rolled around I was a mess.  But nothing died except my belief in the #.  It finally lost its power.  When I woke up the next day I realized that the number had lost its power over me. 

I got a call that my father had cancer on 6/16/06 at 2:12.  I know thought that the # was gaining some sort of ability to follow me no matter its make up.  It could now morph into 616 and still have the same power over my life.

Some months later I was living in Orlando.  I was merging off an expressway one day and pulled behind a cop car.  In huge font, the top of the cop car was identified with 216.  I looked down at the clock in the dash:  2:16pm.

Those are the most memorable instance of that particular number and synchronicity.


The number’s gone away now.  For a while I felt that some higher power was trying to tell me something.  Maybe all of my dabbling in psychedelics and foreign religions had brought the eye of the evil one to me.  Maybe God himself was trying to warn a wayward son the danger of his path.  Maybe I was just going insane and schizophrenia was rap, rap, rapping at my door.

Now a little older, a little wiser, a little soberer….I realize that maybe that synchronicities only have the meanings that we associate with them.  The labels that we give something—a name, an idea—define the world around us.  Perception is everything.  Everything is perception.  What we truly know is less than many of us would care to concede.  The fact is most of us “Can’t handle the truth.”  (Jack got it right, folks)  Philosophers and theologians have grappled with the source of knowledge, and whether that knowledge is true or false for millennia.  I’m not really too hip on

Every now and then when I’m in a situation that I know is not beneficial for my spiritual well-being or against my moral leanings the number will still pop up.  But most of the time I pay it no mind.  And because I pay it no mind, I think my integrity suffers for it.  I think I slip along my path and sometimes it takes weeks to return to where I was.  The less weight I give it the less it affects me in any kind of way.  But paradoxically, the less weight I give to it the heavier the trials and tribulations of everyday life weighs on me.


And that’s my experience with synchronicity.  Whether or not the number meant anything was up to me.  And to me alone.  We are not as rational as we believe ourselves to be.


--------------------
Let that which doesn't matter truly not matter.

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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: are synchronicities real? [Re: BrainChemistry]
    #8542837 - 06/19/08 11:24 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

BrainChemistry said:
Quote:

PhanTomCat said:
They have the meaning that you decide they have - whether they do or not....




.
Yup, this is pretty much my belief. The more you tend to think that synchronicities have purpose behind them, the more you notice them and the more you tend to apply them to your life. If you choose to apply them to your life and your life changes as a result, well....couldn't that mean that those synchronicities really DID have a purpose? At least to the relevant person.
.
Maybe the don't have any meaning cosmically speaking, but personally speaking....who knows, I'm willing to accept the possibility.





What you said here, is similar to what I wrote a few days ago in my lightning bolt thread "War of the Worlds".....

Quote:

PhanTomCat said:
If one was to believe that there is no free will, and all paths we choose are already determined, would it make such things like synchronicities more plausible....?
Whether a person believes in synchronicity or not, when a seemingly weird coincidence type of "event" happens, it still gets fed into your head....
Whether or not you give it a direct "meaning", it is still there, and it is part of you from then on out....   
Thus somehow, no matter how small, makes a ripple in your consciousness....    :shrug:
.
Is that the only difference to a coincidence and synchronicity, giving the noticed event "meaning"....?
And if that event changes your life or how you view things from then on out, doesn't that hold value as "meaning"....?
.
.
>^;;^<




If you notice a "coincidence" in your life, and it is felt as some sort of "profound" connection of event inputs that changes your way of thinking, and that change in your life was caused by of it's acknowledgement of being something special, then I *think* the coincidence gets upgraded to a synchronicity.... 

Eeeehhhh....?    :ohwell:


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<

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OfflineTameMe
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Re: are synchronicities real? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #8542942 - 06/19/08 11:50 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Synchronicities as described by Jung include an inner psychic event that coincides temporal-spacially with an outer physical event. This has to do with his understanding of the nature of phenomenal reality as being "psychoid," which is to say that space-time is both psychic and physical - just as humans are. Hey, what a coincidence! Human beings are also woven from the strands of space and time, we are co-extensive with the universe of space-time, not separate.

If two corellated particles, according to quantum mechanics, that are separated by a distance so great that their correlation cannot be caused by 'signaling' (because signaling would have to exceed the speed of light), but their movements are correlated instantaneously, there then has to be more than a physical cause. In the same vein, if two people separated by say, 100 million miles (an astronaut and someone on Earth) had an instantaneous telepathic moment, a physical signaling could not be the cause because electromagnetic energy would still take almost 10 minutes to travel that distance. How then to account for the instantaneity? Because, theoretically, psyche transcends space-time. That is to say, 'our minds are one' - kinda like a Vulcan mind-meld only more far out because not only is time transcended but space is as well. Time and space are irrelevant to this kind of simultaneity and real synchronicities are like this in that they are not physically causal. Hence "Synchronicity: An Acausual Connecting Principle."

The Chinese who developed the I Ching based upon what Jung called Synchronicity, said, casually, of acausal phenomena that 'certain things like to happen together.' An accepting mentality, a Ch'an or Zen mind simply nods OK whilst the one-sided rationalist just cannot let go of his/her cause-effect addiction to grok the phenomena that defies causality. Rationality has its obvious importance in the realm of micro-thought, but in the realm of macro-thought, transrational is the shibboleth. That realm operates on intuition, not discursive reason. It is like Newtonian physics that operate in the macro-world, but not in the micro-world of quantum physics. The micro works within the macro. The rational operates by virtue of the consciousness that is transrational, and which is by nature transcendental - the psychic side of reality. Buddhism says pretty much the same thing.




so it would be wiser to just say ok and form no rational/thought/attatchment to the event?

i have to admit....sychronicities are fun...but i feel like i'm wasting my life indulging in them. that and....i feel delusional when they happen sometimes.

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OfflineTameMe
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Re: are synchronicities real? [Re: youbreakyoubuy]
    #8542992 - 06/20/08 12:01 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

your post is frighteningly similar to my story.

sometimes i wonder.....why in the hell would kids be indoctrinated by religion at such a young age when they have no way of grasping what the hell GOD is.

my number was 24...

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: are synchronicities real? [Re: TameMe]
    #8543339 - 06/20/08 03:22 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I see zeros everywhere! :shiftyeyes:


--------------------

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: are synchronicities real? [Re: TameMe]
    #8543489 - 06/20/08 06:57 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

hi;
I like your analytical approach.
you can see that your sensations trigger your expectations (perception) and that this can linger in mind long enough to collude with new sensations confirming expectations.

also you can find simmilarity in many aspects of your gestalt at the same time.

but also

as you enter your space (prior to the experience of synchronicity), wandering in from where you have been, you have to be in step with the world that you come through and come from.

there is no way that you cannot be in step with the world (previous gestalts) prior to the one you are experiencing. associatins from current sensations are conditioned with associations from previous moments - so what connects in the outer world is usually in synch with what connects in the inner world.

so in a way the synchrony and synchronicity has been happenning all along, you just notice it more at certain times, especially when time gets unusual and moments stack up on top of eachother.

numeric superimpositions are curious, and the interpretations of them are usually superstitious which i don't reccommend. let it be fun if you like, try not to get heavy.

the meaning is more about the (amazing) process than about "hidden" or "occult" attributions.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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OfflineTameMe
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Re: are synchronicities real? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #8543561 - 06/20/08 07:36 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

that makes a lot of sense for me.

thanks for that post.....it's nice to wake up to that.....i feel ready for the day!

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OfflinePlatinum
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Re: are synchronicities real? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8543627 - 06/20/08 08:39 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Well, I just wanted to offer an example of 1 of my own personal examples of synchronicity.

I was walking to work about 2 years ago and was listening to Aenima (Tool's 3rd album) and it just stopped working. I was so pissed because although this was a burned copy, I did not have the original to reburn it, not to mention I wouldn't have anything to listen to later in the day. This instantly put me in a bad mood as I continued my walk to work. I arrived at work and my coworkers obviously saw I was in a bad mood. I told them what happened and they had said "there's a CD in the back that someone left here awhile ago, I don't know what it is, but at least it's something to listen to when you leave." I walk to the back and guess what... it was a real copy of Aenima, not burned, but original. I do not believe in coincidences, so I chalked it up to synchronicity. It is just too ironic that the 1 CD that had been left was the very same CD that I had broke.

Needless to say I took the CD home, and burned an extra copy just in case it ever happened again.

Edited by Platinum (06/20/08 08:41 AM)

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: are synchronicities real? [Re: TameMe]
    #8543645 - 06/20/08 08:45 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

No, Synchronicites are 'manna from heaven' for I have long fed off the wider implications of an "implicate order" to the universe. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Implicate_and_Explicate_Order_according_to_David_Bohm

What I was saying is that the strictly rational mind, the mind of cause-effect based upon the data of the five senses is not the means to grasp Synchronicities because they operate from an acausal principle which involves the observed and the observer. The problem with assuming the mererly rational mind is that one assumes that one is somehow separate from any observed phenomenon rather than an integral part. This is 19th century thinking, that a very rational person can assume some utterly detached position, an 'eye-of-God' stance that has nothing to do with an observed phenomenon.

Now, I have gone through a period of my life when I used too much LSD and I began to create connections when there were none that could have been observed by other people. Even a Synchronicity can be shared when others see the outer phenomenon, one can report one's inner phenomenon. I visited a friend and his brother once and their TV was on throughout the visit but music was playing. After half an hour or so I only then realized that the music was from the stereo not the TV. A small but significant example of a breakdown in discrimination and the false attribution of a unity - a TV production set to music. Non-existent beyond my distorted subjectivity. In greater degrees these false connections become 'ideas of reference' and begin to form the basis for paranoia - either as a personality disorder of as a thought disorder
(schizophrenia).

I do not know how one could "indulge" in Synchronicities, but one can pause to contemplate them ("grok in fulness"). I certainly do not think that becoming aware of them, recording them externally, or even more importantly - including them in one's "account with reality" (William James) is a waste of time. It expands one's cosmos to cosmic consciousness by the inclusion of Sycnchronicity in one's world view.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: are synchronicities real? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #8543847 - 06/20/08 09:59 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
...
What I was saying is that the strictly rational mind, the mind of cause-effect based upon the data of the five senses is not the means to grasp Synchronicities because they operate from an acausal principle which involves the observed and the observer. ...




whoah,
there is no acausal principle, though there are concertive causations in systems that cannot be easily described by fixed concepts and words.
usually we can point to a few related elements and relationships will emerge.

anything stream like is full of complexities that are anything but acausal.

Here the distinction to grasp is that we can experience stream totalities, but we can't model them easily.
we can barely recall a sequence of stream, so modeling, projecting, and logical descriptions are exceedingly difficult for our hardware
(i.e. we are not cray computers doing 3-d physical modelling of the behavior of molecules in a fluid matrix -
but such modelling is possible, enlightening, but usually way simpler than real life.)

at best we can project based upon the essential rythms of the flow. the cadences.

this inability to project logically does not mean that the events (of synchronicity) are acausal.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: are synchronicities real? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #8544027 - 06/20/08 11:14 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

"...there is no acausal principle..."

That may be your opinion, but clearly, I am writing from my opinion. It is an opinion forged from experiences held in certain conceptual matrices and it represents a holistic all-in-oneness
to the Uni-verse (speaking of Uni- [One] "cadence[s]" or 'verse' metaphorically).

Eight plus years of Jungian analysis, 100 classroom hours of Jungian workshops, 20+ years of self-analysis and dream analysis, and readings in the field since 1974 were subsequent to numerous synchronistic and several paranormal experiences (on and off psychedelics) which fueled this life-long inquiry. I'm afaid a single post of opposing position is not going to put much of a dent in my weltanschauung
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weltanschauung.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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