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 zahudulallah Sexual Heretic  Registered: 10/21/04 Posts: 10,579 Loc: Tokyo, Japan Last seen: 21 years, 5 months |
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Likewise.
-------------------- 
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Phred Fred's son   Registered: 10/19/00 Posts: 12,949 Loc: Dominican Republ Last seen: 11 years, 9 months |
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zahudulallah writes:
Why haven't U.S. soldiers left Afghanistan? As you are well aware, the troops currently stationed in Afghanistan are there at the behest of the United Nations, not the US per se. Are there American troops there? Certainly. There are also Canadian troops there. The UN is the body which will decide when the UN peacekeeping forces will be withdrawn, most likely not beforef the democratically-elected Afghani government requests it. My guess is that government will likely not be requesting their withdrawal just yet. pinky -------------------- 
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 Xlea321 Stranger Registered: 02/26/01 Posts: 9,134 |
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As you are well aware, the troops currently stationed in Afghanistan are there at the behest of the United Nations, not the US per se.
Why do you say "we are there because of the UN" when it suits you yet when the UN doesn't support an invasion you are perfectly happy to completely ignore them? most likely not beforef the democratically-elected Afghani government requests it A government whose power extends all the way..to the bottom of the street. The warlords rule Afghanistan. My guess is that government will likely not be requesting their withdrawal just yet. Seeing as the Afghani people would tear Karzai limb from limb without his US bodyguard that's a pretty safe bet. -------------------- Don't worry, B. Caapi
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Phred Fred's son Registered: 10/19/00 Posts: 12,949 Loc: Dominican Republ Last seen: 11 years, 9 months |
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Alex123 writes:
Why do you say "we are there because of the UN" when it suits you yet when the UN doesn't support an invasion you are perfectly happy to completely ignore them? When have I ever said the coalition troops in Iraq are there at the request of the UN? A government whose power extends all the way..to the bottom of the street. The warlords rule Afghanistan. If true, all the more reason to accept my premise that the UN troops will not likely be asked by the Afghani government to leave any time soon. pinky --------------------
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Xlea321 Stranger Registered: 02/26/01 Posts: 9,134 |
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When have I ever said the coalition troops in Iraq are there at the request of the UN?
That wasn't what I asked. my premise that the UN troops Do you mean US troops? will not likely be asked by the Afghani government Yes it is unlikely the puppet you installed in government is going to tell the people protecting his life to leave. What conclusion are you trying to draw from this? -------------------- Don't worry, B. Caapi
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DirtMcgirt in a pinch   Registered: 10/20/04 Posts: 2,213 Loc: city of angels |
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Primarily? Maybe soft targets attacks have risen but hardly overshadow the attacks on our boys. They don't tell you about attacks on soldiers nearly as often as they trump up when a couple lunitics chop the head off of some reporter. Chopping the heads off of aid workers and and killing Iraqi police forces does show some insurgents don't give a shit about their fellow man and I can't defend that kind of barbarism. However it doesn't account for most of the attacks that are carried out by dissidents of the invasion. I've yet to read an account of people blowing up their own infrastucture. Feel free to enlighten me...
Show that there is some kind of plan or dialouge in place. Maybe set up some sort of constitution or a system of checks and balances to lay a groundwork for some kind of democratic government. Something that might show that we are sincere in setting up a governemt that works for the Iraqis and not ourselves. We've been in the country for almost 2 years now and have yet to do any of this. The upcoming elections are pointless if they do nothing but elect a leader. Just becasue elections occur doesn't mean democracy is being carried out (ala Ukraine right now or the fruadulent elections of Saddam or any other dictator). It reeks of us setting up a puppet government like we have in so many other instances in history.
Your just assuming the behavior of a culture and people you or I have never met or been in intimite contact with. I couldn't prove you right or wrong. In the larger cities like Baghdad and Basra there was reliable power and water services. I just it looked up http://www.irinnews.org/report.a
Again, your assuming the mentality of Iraqis whom you've never had contact with. Even if they have the tendancy to mind there own business as you say I find it hard to believe if militants were running around and you wern't supportive of there cause you would inform the army where they were at or of there movements in some way. From what I can tell Iraqis are not doing a whole lot to help the army hedge the insurgency. Just my perspective from the information I've gathered. As far as watchdog here in the states I find that people around where I live don't get into other's lives at all. In fact I wouldn't mind people around here being more alert to their surroundings and maybe my car wouldn't get busted into all the fucking time! People around here won't even make eye contact on the street or at the gas station and people don't get into there neighbor's business unless it directly effects them. Then it still isn't very likely, I find. In the few other cities (Minneapolis, Fargo, Dallas(I've moved around alot  )) I've lived in its been this way as well. Maybe I am misinterperting your use of watchdog mentality....
-------------------- "And we, inhabitants of the great coral of the Cosmos, believe the atom (which still we cannot see) to be full matter, whereas, it too, like everything else, is but an embroidery of voids in the Void, and we give the name of being, dense and even eternal, to that dance of inconsistencies, that infinite extension that is identified with absolute Nothingness and that spins from its own non-being the illusion of everything."
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d33p Welcome to Violence  Registered: 07/12/03 Posts: 5,381 Loc: the shores of Tr Last seen: 13 years, 5 months |
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Here ones article, not the best source but I'm sure the deaths they speak of are genuine [url=http://64.233.161.104/searc Iraq Insurgents Shifting to Soft Targets By CHRISTOPHER TORCHIA Associated Press Writer BAGHDAD, Iraq Drive-by gunmen on Tuesday killed two Europeans working on a water project south of Baghdad, bringing to six the number of foreign aid workers killed in two days. The attacks apparently signal a strategy shift with insurgents taking aim at "soft" targets. In an attack on Monday, four American missionaries were killed in a similar shooting in the northern city of Mosul. They had also been working on a water project. The twin attacks are seen as a new effort by insurgents to snarl work by the U.S.-led coalition to rebuild Iraq in preparation for the American hand-over of authority to the Iraqis on June 30. Also gunned down on Tuesday were three Iraqi police officers and a translator working for the U.S. military _ victims of a long-running rebel campaign to kill those perceived as collaborating with the United States. At a military ceremony in Tikrit, Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez, the top U.S. commander in Iraq, said the attacks on humanitarian workers were an attempt to intimidate those trying to help the 36-nation U.S.-led coalition. "Clearly there has been a shift in the insurgency and the way the extremists are conducting operations," Sanchez said in an apparent reference to rebel assaults on civilians. Two American employees of the coalition and an Iraqi translator died in a shooting on a road south of Baghdad on March 9. The Americans were the first civilians from the U.S. occupation authority to be killed in Iraq. "It is very clear they are going after these targets that might create some splits within the coalition," Sanchez said. The role of Spain in the coalition remained in doubt Tuesday after Prime Minister-elect Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero promised to withdraw the country's 1,300 troops by June 30 if the United Nations does not take control of peacekeeping. The Spanish troops operate south of Baghdad. Honduras, which also was scheduled to end its mission at that time, said Tuesday it plans to bring home its 370 troops and would extend "only if the United Nations asks." Zapatero's Socialist party was propelled to an upset victory in elections Sunday by anger over terrorist attacks in Madrid last week that killed 201 people. Voters accused Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar of making Spain a target by supporting the U.S.-led war in Iraq. On Tuesday, Sanchez said the coalition could manage without the Spaniards. "It is something we will have to adjust to," Sanchez said. "But it is clearly manageable. It is not a significant military problem for the coalition to be able to cover that area." The Tuesday killings involved a German and a Dutch national gunned down near the town of Mussayab, 45 miles south of Baghdad, officials said. Their Iraqi driver and a police officer also were killed in the attack. Two police officers were wounded. Iraqi and U.S. officials earlier said the Europeans were Germans. But the Foreign Ministries of Germany and the Netherlands each confirmed one of their citizens had been killed. Names were not released. Col. A'ayed Omran, police chief in Mussayab, said the two were water engineers working on a project at Al-Razzaza, a lake near the southern city of Karbala. He said they were carrying weapons because they had been attacked in the same area before. The four U.S. missionaries slain in Mosul were working on a water-purification project. One of them died on the way to a U.S. military hospital in Baghdad early Tuesday, and a fifth was being treated. In Mosul on Tuesday, assailants in a car fired on a police vehicle, killing three officers and wounding one, police said. The gunmen fled. In another shooting in Mosul, gunmen killed an Iraqi woman working as a translator for the U.S. military, the U.S.-led coalition said. Two of her family members were wounded in the attack on their vehicle. Mosul was a prime recruiting ground for the officer corps of Saddam's army, and U.S. military officials have described the city as a hotbed of guerrilla activity. The CIA and other U.S. intelligence agencies have a unit in the city that is searching for so-called "high value" targets. The Virginia-based Southern Baptist International Mission Board identified the four dead missionaries as Larry T. Elliott, 60, and Jean Dover Elliott, 58, of Cary, N.C.; Karen Denise Watson, 38, of Bakersfield, Calif.; and David E. McDonnall, 28, of Rowlett, Texas. McDonnall died Tuesday morning on a helicopter taking him to a military hospital in Baghdad after four U.S. military surgeons worked for six hours to save his life, the mission board said. McDonnall's wife, Carrie Taylor McDonnall, 26, of Rowlett, Texas, was in critical condition, the board said. Lt. Col. Joseph Piek, a spokesman for American forces in Mosul, said the five Americans were traveling in one car on the eastern side of Mosul when they were attacked. Iraqi police and the FBI were investigating. Christian missionaries in predominantly Muslim Iraq are viewed with suspicion by many residents who believe the foreigners are trying to convert them to their faith. "They knew going into Iraq, they couldn't really share their Christian faith unless somebody asked them," said Larry Kingsley, a church deacon. "They were there in a humanitarian situation. They were people who just had a great heart for helping people out." In the northern city of Kirkuk, three mortar shells on Tuesday hit the airport compound, where U.S. troops are based. Smoke billowed and sirens blared. There were no reported injuries. There has been no official count of Iraqi casualties, either civilian or military, during or after the war. The U.S. government says it doesn't count such casualties. The Associated Press surveyed hospitals beginning March 20, 2003, and counted 3,240 civilian deaths. http://www.sunherald.com/mld/sun Bomb destroys Baghdad hotel, killing 27 By JIM KRANE and HAMZA HENDAWI Associated Press BAGHDAD, Iraq - A thunderous car bomb tore apart a five-story hotel catering to foreigners in the heart of Baghdad on Wednesday night, killing 27 people and showing the continued vulnerability of civilians to terror attacks just days before the anniversary of the start of the Iraq war. Flames and heavy smoke burst skyward from the Mount Lebanon Hotel, torching nearby homes, offices and shops. Rescuers pulled bodies from the rubble and searched for other victims of the attack, which wounded 41 people. There was no official word on who carried out the attack but a U.S. counterterrorism official, speaking on the condition of anonymity, said Jordanian Islamic militant Abu Musab al-Zarqawi is among those suspected of playing a key role. Dazed and wounded people stumbled from the wreckage, marked by a jagged, 20-foot-wide crater. A father cradled his young daughter, who was limp in his arms. Coated in dust, some rescuers dug through the debris with bare hands as uniformed firefighters fought the blaze and ambulance workers stood by with orange stretchers. "It was a huge boom followed by complete darkness and then the red glow of a fire," said 16-year-old Walid Mohammed Abdel-Maguid, who lives near the hotel. A U.S. soldier a mile away said the blast - which took place about 8 p.m. - felt as though it were next door. Army Col. Ralph Baker of the 1st Armored Division estimated that the bomb contained 1,000 pounds of explosives. He said the bomb was a mix of plastic explosives and artillery shells. That was the same mixture of explosives used in the Aug. 19 suicide attack on the U.N. headquarters in Baghdad, which killed 22 people. Americans, Britons, Egyptians as well as other foreigners were staying at the Mount Lebanon Hotel, said Baghdad resident Faleh Kalhan. But some residents in the area said they believed guests left the hotel a week ago after its management received threats. If true, many casualties were likely in adjacent buildings. The British Broadcasting Corp. reported that two Britons were among the wounded. The blast ignited at least eight cars, one of which was hurled into a store. Some vehicles were little more than mangled piles of metal. The explosion blew bricks, air conditioners, furniture, wires and other debris hundreds of yards from the hotel. The Mount Lebanon was a so-called soft target because it did not have concrete blast barriers and other security measures that protect offices of the U.S.-led coalition and buildings where Westerners live and work. The Bush administration offered prayers for the victims but said such attacks would not change U.S. policy. "Democracy is taking root in Iraq and there is no turning back," said Scott McClellan, White House spokesman. "This is a time of testing, but the terrorists will not prevail." The attack came just three days before the first anniversary of the start of the U.S.-led war to topple Saddam Hussein. It took place behind Firdaus Square, where Iraqis toppled a bronze statue of Saddam on April 9 with the help of U.S. Marines who had just entered the center of the capital. After the blast, American forces and Iraqi ambulances hurried to the scene. Dozens of U.S. soldiers in Humvees and Bradley fighting vehicles cleared crowds. Earlier, two U.S. soldiers tried to help pull bodies from the wreckage of the hotel, but angry Iraqis pushed them back. The explosion left a crater 20 feet wide and 10 feet deep, and American forensic experts studied the scene. The area of the blast, Karrada, is a mix of residential and commercial buildings. The blast shook the nearby Palestine Hotel, where many foreign contractors and journalists are based. It also damaged the nearby Swan Lake Hotel, home to many foreigners, including several journalists. The power of the bomb left the bureau of Arabic Al-Jazeera satellite television in a shambles, with windows smashed and televisions hanging from cords. "All of our offices in this hotel are nearly destroyed. I was typing some information for a story and the windows blew in and covered me," said the bureau's senior editor, Mohammed Abdul Rahim, a Syrian. No one in Swan Lake Hotel appeared to be wounded. Gwenaelle Lenoir, a reporter for French Channel 3 television, was dazed. "We were just finishing mixing our story and we heard a very big boom and there were no more windows and no more lights," she said. Across the street from the Mount Lebanon Hotel, the one-story house of a Christian family of seven was virtually destroyed. The bodies of a man and a woman were pulled from the debris. A two-story annex belonging to the Baghdad Hospital was in flames, with one side sheared off. A separate two-story complex of offices and shops was also badly damaged. The blast startled occupants of the Green Zone, a heavily protected area that houses the headquarters of the U.S.-led occupation across the Tigris river from the hotel. "We felt the blast here, it was a huge blast," U.S. Army Col. Jill Morgenthaler said. "We're a mile south of that and I thought it was striking next door." Assailants, including suicide bombers, have repeatedly carried out bomb attacks in Iraq since August. The targets have included Iraqi police stations, army recruiting centers, the U.N. headquarters and the offices of the international Red Cross. Brig. Gen. Mark Hertling, deputy commander of the 1st Armored Division said he did not believe Iraqis linked to former ruling Baath party were behind the attack, saying that they are believed to be focusing attacks on U.S. soldiers. "We're going after the extremists in Iraq and the extremists coming from outside Iraq," Hertling said. "It's just so frustrating. ... You take three steps forward and something like this happens and you take one step back." Referring to a possible role in the attack by al-Zarqawi, the counterterrorism official said that while there were other possibilities, the Jordanian has had a role in a number of large attacks. However, "it's not his style to claim responsibility for attacks. At this point, it is not clear who is responsible," the official added. The official said there has been a continuing trend of hitting "soft targets" such as hotels or other civilian sites in Iraq. Well that is from a very quick google search, im kind of pressed for time. I'll find more later if you like. The insurgents really dont care about iraqis at all im telling ya.
Sounds good
I am actually quite confident that iraqis possess a mentality of nothing meddling in other peoples affairs. It is a mentality they share with most other underdeveloped or 3rd world countries. One main reason is life is cheap. It means nothing to get shot for looking the wrong way. Why would they risk their lives over something they aren't completely crazy over.
Insurgents are not running around with special flags yelling out. They are able to blend in quite nicely so i don't think the effect of help would be so dramatic as you do. As well i don't expect the military to release reports of iraqis helping to capture insurgents as it could easily put the informants lives in danger. I could just imagine them receiving pressure to get iraqi help so they release a report which leads to the beheading of an informant. Stuff very similar to that has happened in the past. Well the watchdog mentality has nothing to do with them interacting with you. They could avoid you like the plague and still be watching what you are doing. Many people possess a very strong watchdog mentality and don't even realize. I've seen it be prevalent but i haven't been in the places you've lived. And you mentioned your car getting broken into and no one helping. This is due to what psychologists call the bystander effected which is related to the diffusion of responsibility. People hear your car getting broken into and think, "there are hundreds of other people around, someone else will help, they dont need me, im not responsible, i guess i'll just go to sleep." People are most likely to offer aid when they are alone, in a good mood, and when the situation seems extreme(i think, could be when the victim is female). -------------------- I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends. bang bang
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zahudulallah Sexual Heretic Registered: 10/21/04 Posts: 10,579 Loc: Tokyo, Japan Last seen: 21 years, 5 months |
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The U.N. doesn't really mean anything, and it certainly doesn't have any authority over the United States.
It's a fairly useless organization in contrast. The United States is in a position to obey the U.N. when it benefits them, and to disobey them when it doesn't. --------------------
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