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Anonymous

Re: Afghanistan & Oil [Re: Phred]
    #1436987 - 04/07/03 05:45 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

There is almost nothing more vulnerable to terrorist attacks than a natural gas pipeline stretching hundreds of miles across a barren, mountainous, sparsely-populated terrain filled with violent fanatics with a penchant for blowing stuff up.





Oh come now.  You don't need hyperbole to make a point.

:grin:

j/k

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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
Son of Uncle Meat
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Registered: 06/06/02
Posts: 19,058
Loc: Toronto Canada
Re: Afghanistan & Oil [Re: ]
    #1437023 - 04/07/03 05:52 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

Do you think this will go into overtime**?"

**In baseball jargoon Mr. Shrooms, we refer to it as "extra innings" :grin: 


--------------------
"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"


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Anonymous

Re: Afghanistan & Oil [Re: FreakQlibrium]
    #1437041 - 04/07/03 05:56 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

:blush:

[Mr_Mushrooms exposes Sports Ignorance]

:grin:

Ask me a question about 60's and 70's rock, real quick, so I can recover. :wink:

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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
Son of Uncle Meat
Male User Gallery

Registered: 06/06/02
Posts: 19,058
Loc: Toronto Canada
Re: Afghanistan & Oil [Re: ]
    #1437071 - 04/07/03 06:03 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

Ask me a question about 60's and 70's rock, real quick, so I can recover.  :wink:

Ru SURE you are up to the Freak challenge Mr. Shrooms?
 


--------------------
"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"


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Anonymous

Re: Afghanistan & Oil [Re: FreakQlibrium]
    #1437126 - 04/07/03 06:18 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

And the answer is........

Who is Audience for a hundred?

How'd I do?

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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
Son of Uncle Meat
Male User Gallery

Registered: 06/06/02
Posts: 19,058
Loc: Toronto Canada
Re: Afghanistan & Oil [Re: ]
    #1437141 - 04/07/03 06:23 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

i waz actually gonna make it something easy(for you anyway) .......ahem~~*Freak steps up to the mike*~~ What did the core/nucleus of the mid 60's band "The Buckinghams"("mercy mercy" was their biggest hit along with "kind of a drag") amalgamate into? :smile:*


*No! the correct answer is NOT Atomic Rooster :grin: 


--------------------
"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"


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Anonymous

Re: Afghanistan & Oil [Re: FreakQlibrium]
    #1437159 - 04/07/03 06:31 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

Ok, wild ass guess:

Chicago?

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OfflineRonoS
DSYSB since '01
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Registered: 01/25/01
Posts: 16,259
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
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Re: Afghanistan & Oil [Re: ]
    #1437169 - 04/07/03 06:34 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

any chance we can get this back on topic?...


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"

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Anonymous

Re: Afghanistan & Oil [Re: Phred]
    #1437242 - 04/07/03 06:54 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

Yes Pinky, as I was saying, it looks as if there wasn't any contract.  Probably just wishful thinking.


Rono: :wink: gotcha

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InvisiblePsiloKitten
Ganja Goddess

Registered: 02/12/99
Posts: 1,617
Re: Afghanistan & Oil [Re: Phred]
    #1438037 - 04/07/03 11:58 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

Heh,  you know-- professors normally have more to do then email me the info within seconds.. I shall be getting a photocopy but here you go for now:

An October 24th 2001 article published in the India Times (AP) stated that "Wendy Chamberlain's recent visit reopened the unocal pipeline CONTRACT." (capitalized for your pleasure)

"The first time the UNOCAL plan was under consideration, it was for a 1,400-kilometer pipeline to carry gas from Turkmenistan with the possible addition of an oil line at a later date..."

"But the low-key news was reported far more enthusiastically by commercial television in Kazakhstan. One report transcribed by the BBC said, "Today, Kazakhstan and its partners officially agreed to lay the proposed UNOCAL pipeline from our country to the shore of the Indian Ocean."

"..."A second Kazakhstani television report on the proposed pipeline stated: "Other regional countries have already agreed to the beginning of the implementation of this project." It cited a letter from Turkmen President Saparmurat Niyazov.


I dont have the full text of the article but from the clips that were sent to me, it sure as hell does seem to be implied that its a unocal project and had been approved. Also, a link posted earlier in this thread talks about the early approval but the decision not to announce the plans publically for some time..

Evidently there is another article regarding the link between the Caspian Pipeline Consortium that had just been pushed through and the ties to this one from that same week that contains some more elaboration.


Also:
On May 13, the BBC announced that: `Afghanistan hopes to strike a deal later this month to build a $2bn pipeline through the country to take gas from energy-rich Turkmenistan to Pakistan and India. Afghan interim ruler Hamid Karzai is to hold talks with his Pakistani and Turkmenistan counterparts later this month on Afghanistan's biggest foreign investment project, said Mohammad Alim Razim, minister for Mines and Industries told Reuters.'

`Mr Razim said US energy company Unocal was the "lead company" among those that would build the pipeline, which would bring 30bn cubic meters of Turkmen gas to market annually. Unocal - which led a consortium of companies from Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Turkmenistan, Japan and South Korea - has maintained the project is both economically and technically feasible once Afghan stability was secured. "

Lead company among those that would "build" the pipeline.. not those in process of bidding on the pipeline.

My prof also sent me this quote from Irish Times February 23rd, 2002
"Mr Karzai's Oil Minister said the US company UNOCAL (formerly Union Oil Company of California) would obtain the contract to build the pipeline. "


Hehe, I also find it kind of funny that you attack the American educational system leftist profs-- heaven forbid the encourage one to question the accuracy of our media and govt.  How dare they :blush:


** edited for accidental cut and paste into the incorrect article.  Dont want anyone on my ass for fucking with the facts, regardless of the benign mistake. Im sure you will still be sure your right, will debuke everything I just spent the time to paste.... It wont even matter to your self righteousness, I cant wait to get the articles so I can scan them, but Ill take the good profs word any day over yours :smile:
   


--------------------

Edited by PsiloKitten (04/08/03 12:24 AM)

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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

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Posts: 12,949
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Re: Afghanistan & Oil [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1438706 - 04/08/03 08:46 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

PsiloKitten writes:

Im sure you will still be sure your right, will debuke everything I just spent the time to paste....

All I asked you for was a credible source showing that Unocal had been awarded the contract for a trans-Afghan pipeline. Once you do so, I will apologize abjectly. What you have provided so far doesn't even come close. Let's take a closer look, shall we? --

"An October 24th 2001 article published in the India Times (AP) stated that "Wendy Chamberlain's recent visit reopened the unocal pipeline CONTRACT."

This reporter obviously used the wrong words (or perhaps a mistranslation? Is the India Times an English language paper?) -- it would have been more accurate to say "contract discussions". Further, the reporter confused "Unocal" with "Centgas". As several of Fiend's links show, Unocal withdrew from the Centgas consortium in 1998.

"The first time the UNOCAL plan was under consideration, it was for a 1,400-kilometer pipeline to carry gas from Turkmenistan with the possible addition of an oil line at a later date..."

A plan is not a contract.

"But the low-key news was reported far more enthusiastically by commercial television in Kazakhstan. One report transcribed by the BBC said, "Today, Kazakhstan and its partners officially agreed to lay the proposed UNOCAL pipeline from our country to the shore of the Indian Ocean."

Perhaps Kazakhstan was happy, but since the proposed pipeline is to run from Turkmenistan through Afghanistan and Pakistan, their enthusiasm is beside the point. This is the first I have seen anything reported anywhere about a pipeline from Kazakhstan to the Indian ocean. Such a pipeline would have to cross through Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, Afghanistan, and Pakistan to reach the Indian Ocean. look at an Atlas.

Methinks the Kazakhstani television station involved needs to do a bit more fact checking.

"..."A second Kazakhstani television report on the proposed pipeline stated: "Other regional countries have already agreed to the beginning of the implementation of this project." It cited a letter from Turkmen President Saparmurat Niyazov.

So it seems the Kazakhs hope to eventually connect to the Turkmenistan pipeline, if it is ever built. As of today, they are still looking for an international consortium to build such a pipeline.

I dont have the full text of the article but from the clips that were sent to me, it sure as hell does seem to be implied that its a unocal project and had been approved.

I can understand how some phrases in those clips would lead some casual reader to leap to such a conclusion, but surely you are aware that what is implied is not always what is.

The reality is that Unocal withdrew from the bidding long ago. The reality is that governmental approval from the three nations involved was not even granted until May of 2002. The reality is that almost a year later, no international consortium willing to undertake the project has been found.

Also, a link posted earlier in this thread talks about the early approval but the decision not to announce the plans publically for some time..

Must have been a really early approval -- like sometime in 1998 while the Taliban was still in power in Afganistan, since Unocal withdrew from the Centgas consortium in 1998.

Evidently there is another article regarding the link between the Caspian Pipeline Consortium that had just been pushed through and the ties to this one from that same week that contains some more elaboration.

Sorry -- I didn't follow that. Are you saying that Unocal is part of the Caspian Pipeline Consortium rather than the Centgas consortium? They may well be, but the Caspian Pipeline Consortium is not the one who has been awarded the contract for the pipeline to run through Afghanistan -- no one has yet been awarded that contract. The CPC are the ones who want to run a pipeline from the Caspian oil fields to the Black Sea port of Novorossiysk -- a much shorter distance that doesn't involve crossing a wartorn nation.

On May 13, the BBC announced that: `Afghanistan hopes to strike a deal later this month to build a $2bn pipeline through the country to take gas from energy-rich Turkmenistan to Pakistan and India. Afghan interim ruler Hamid Karzai is to hold talks with his Pakistani and Turkmenistan counterparts later this month on Afghanistan's biggest foreign investment project, said Mohammad Alim Razim, minister for Mines and Industries told Reuters.'

Note the phrasing -- "hopes to" strike a deal, not "has" struck a deal.

`Mr Razim said US energy company Unocal was the "lead company" among those that would build the pipeline, which would bring 30bn cubic meters of Turkmen gas to market annually. Unocal - which led a consortium of companies from Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Turkmenistan, Japan and South Korea - has maintained the project is both economically and technically feasible once Afghan stability was secured. "

Again, note the phrasing -- past tense. Yes, Unocal was the lead company -- until 1998. Yes, Unocal led the Centgas consortium -- until 1998, when it withdrew.

"Mr Karzai's Oil Minister said the US company UNOCAL (formerly Union Oil Company of California) would obtain the contract to build the pipeline. "

Looks like Mr. Karzai is prone to wishful thinking. Perhaps he was hoping that once the three countries involved had a signed agreement allowing the construction, Unocal could be lured back into the arena. So far, they haven't been.

Hehe, I also find it kind of funny that you attack the American educational system leftist profs-- heaven forbid the encourage one to question the accuracy of our media and govt.

And yet you don't question the accuracy of a short blurb in the India Times? Or the accuracy of a television broadcast from a country not even involved in the project (Kazakhstan)?

Look... this is a HUGE deal we are talking about here -- one that has been the subject of a lot of international scrutiny ever since the September 11 attacks. You can be damn sure that once the contract is awarded (if ever), you won't have to dig up ancient Kazakhi television reports to verify it -- it will be all over the financial news of every newspaper in the world for days if not weeks.

Not only that, but if Unocal had been awarded the contract, they would have no choice but to admit it -- SEC regulations require it. It would have been a prominent part of their annual report. Why on earth would Unocal deny so strenuously the acquisition of a $2 billion contract that will send its stock price higher? Not only would Unocal announce it with pride, but so would the governments of the three countries involved -- Turkmenistan, Afghanistan, and Pakistan.

It wont even matter to your self righteousness...

Self-righteousness? What on earth are you talking about? What is "self-righteous" about asking for proof that a company has signed a contract? I have no evidence whatsoever that they have signed the contract, and plenty of evidence to the contrary (they certainly didn't sign it within weeks of Karzai assuming the leadership of the interim Afghani Authority), but I am not omniscient -- it is possible that I (and every other reader of this forum) somehow missed the announcement. That's precisely why I asked you for proof and declared up front that I would apologize for doubting you once such proof was provided.

I cant wait to get the articles so I can scan them, but Ill take the good profs word any day over yours

My word? What are you talking about? All I did was provide you with quotes from some links posted in the very first post of this thread -- I didn't even have to do a search for any more links than the ones Fiend had already provided for us. Did you not bother to read his links before commenting?

As for accepting the "good professor's" word uncritically when it comes to current events rather than spending a few minutes online with a websearch program, what does that say about your credulity? I could understand accepting his opinion about the evolution of pre-Columbian religions of Meso-America (for example), but to swallow whole his assertions about events easily checked in the daily news dealing with matters of fact rather than opinion exhibits a rather sweet and touching faith in Leftist authority figures, in my humble opinion.

pinky


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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
Son of Uncle Meat
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Registered: 06/06/02
Posts: 19,058
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Re: Afghanistan & Oil [Re: ]
    #1438710 - 04/08/03 08:48 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

Ok, wild ass guess: :smirk:

Chicago? :smile:

 


--------------------
"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"


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Anonymous

Re: Afghanistan & Oil [Re: Phred]
    #1438725 - 04/08/03 09:01 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

Thank you Pinky for your accurate review of the facts.

You know, it occurs to me that much of this could easily be cleared up by just a few critical reading skills.  I think it is abysmal that some college professors (and their students) cannot read or think clearly.  With this kind of education going on how ever shall we extricate ourselves from the mess we are in?  I see little hope for it.

I have to interject a short anecdote here.

My very first paper on philosophy impressed my philosophy professor so much he wrote this note on the bottom of it:

"This is an engenious argument."

I was so embarassed for his misspelling I couldn't brag and show it to anyone.  :frown:

And of course, I aced the class, and the one after that, and the one after that, etc.

Eventually I dropped out of college because there was little they could teach me that I couldn't learn on my own.  I have been an autodidact ever since.

Freak:  Thanks :smile:  I thought as much.  The horn sections are too similar.

Cheers, 

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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Afghanistan & Oil [Re: ]
    #1438874 - 04/08/03 10:20 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

I have been an autodidact ever since.



Too bad that latent condition wasn't diagnosed in grade school, they could have sent you to counseling for it, maybe get you some meds to 'fix' your thinking.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Anonymous

Re: Afghanistan & Oil [Re: Evolving]
    #1439204 - 04/08/03 12:08 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

Help Help!  I'm being flamed by a felllow Mod!  Help someone help!!

SOS SOS SOS

:grin:

You are such a tease. :tongue:

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OfflineAzmodeus
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Posts: 3,392
Loc: Lotus Land!! B.C.
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Re: Afghanistan & Oil [Re: ]
    #1439228 - 04/08/03 12:15 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

that wasn't a flame, because he didn't call you a name....theres a difference! :wink:


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "

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Anonymous

Re: Afghanistan & Oil [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1439253 - 04/08/03 12:20 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

I consider all replies to me flames unless they have that heart thingy in them.

That way my feelings don't get hurt.

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OfflineAzmodeus
Seeker

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Posts: 3,392
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Re: Afghanistan & Oil [Re: ]
    #1439258 - 04/08/03 12:22 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

I consider all replies to me flames unless they have that heart thingy in them. 




I hope rono doesn't take a liking to this rule.... :shocked: :grin:


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "

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InvisiblePsiloKitten
Ganja Goddess

Registered: 02/12/99
Posts: 1,617
Re: Afghanistan & Oil [Re: Phred]
    #1441381 - 04/08/03 11:44 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

My Friend,

el Darb fil-mayyit Haraam

with love,
PK


--------------------

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Afghanistan & Oil [Re: Phred]
    #1441409 - 04/08/03 11:54 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

The contract has not in fact, been "awarded". There is no way I would have missed that announcement -- it would have been all over every news outlet for days.

I do hope you're joking. Afghanistan has been a non-issue in the media since we stopped bombing it.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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