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DirtMcgirt said:

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Our government changes ya know. Those who set up unfavorable regimes in the past are generally not those in power now, so it is realistic to believe that progress could have been made. History should have taught you that, i guess school failed with you.

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No, the people who set up these regimes in the past (especially the ones from 15-20 years ago) still control America. They are called democrats and republicans. What gives you the idea that this government has changed since say, um, the Reagan era? Or the Clinton one? Governments can change but this one hasn't. I'm saying that it's completely egocentric to assume that any country let alone the US is going to set up a regime that will serve the people before the occupiers. Given the US's track record that doubt is given tons of weight. Why should they trust us to set up a regime that is there to serve the people? Our good nature? Trust is earned not given and the US in the nation building department hasn't earned any trust from anyone. I wish I could sell you my car since you seem to be so easy to trust anybody. I'm assuming your right leaning and since you don't trust the government to spend your money why do you trust them to set up a democratic regime in a rescource rich area?

So our government is destined to never change and ultimately make the same incorrect decisions over and over again.

Of course none of this matters as the other option which is to leave will prove to be a worse outcome then if we stayed. What a great way to disenfranchise every single iraqi we havent already. What a fucking great idea.

And i don't trust them to do this, the possible outcome based on what has occurred already seems better if we stayed than if we left. The issue still remains that what the insurgents are doing is counter productive and their tactics are retarded.

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The argument boils down to this: we are there to set up a stable government and then leave, the insurgents want us to leave so they fight us, the insurgents fighting us do not allow us to set up a stable government so we stay

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The arguement boils down to the fact that we are not there to set up a stable government, we are there to serve are own interests (even if it was for our own "protection"). The insurgency isn't just one group. It can't be brought down by blowing the shit out of fallujah. It is multiple groups each with their own agendaa.

Setting up a stable government and holding elections is in our own best interests. And yes i understand the nature of the insurgents not being a single group. What does it matter? Or are you saying that some insurgents are fighting us because they don't want us to leave?

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If we(the insurgents) could incite a civil war after they left it is unlikely America would involve itself.

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that is a complete crock of shit. We are building many permanent bases there and they aren't going anywhere anytime soon.

So maybe 50% of America is against this iraq thing. Now if we were to pull out of iraq save for the independent contractors, military advisers, and a few regiments still vital to the Reconstruction effort it is unlikely a large scale american operation would be waged on iraq if a civil war erupted. It is just not likely we would recommit the bulk of our troops back to iraq when many were not in favor of the previous war effort.

You need to understand I'm looking at this from entirely a tactical point of view. If the insurgents fight us now like they are we stay and nothing changes. If they stopped and the overwhelming bulk of our troops left and a civil war erupted it is unlikely we would go back. Maybe at most some type of UN thing would be arraigned.

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And your last sentence is complete bs. Guerrilla tactics and operations can be effective with a very small amount of people. Do you understand how easy it is. If i had 100 devout followers i could bring America to its knees. Heck blowing up the governers' mansions in all 50 states would not be too difficult alone and that would just be phase 1.

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So what? You seriously think the insurgency is a few hundred people killing thousands? Its the whole fish in the sea analogy. Even if it was a few hundred people they would have a difficult time operating if the population was outraged they were attacking US soldiers. Sure they could be effective for a while but they wouldn't last because the population would help the occupiers catch them. Which doesn't happen right now. Do you really assume the same people chopping heads off are the necessarilly the same RPGing humvee's? By buying the "insurgency" noun your clumping a whole mass of people into under one name and serving the media's and governments's agenda of villifying Iraqis who aren't so happy with the occupation.

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Alex123 said:

pulled out of your ass

Any reasoning behind this? Or is it just the usual ass-blowing?

Actually it was just your usual ass blowing

Tactically speaking they are either retarded or ummm... just retarded.

Seem to be doing a pretty good job of keeping the US busy tho.

Which is accomplishing what? Their own deaths.

Two people in every state living under the radar can easily construct a truck bomb ala McVeigh style. Construct some type of rudimentary remote control device and at precisely 9:11 pm you drive all 50 trucks into the governers' mansions. It is not hard.

Yeah will you try it for us instead of scratching your ass, eating doughnuts and telling us all what you can do on a shroom board. Get 50 of your mates and try driving 50 empty trucks into governors mansions as an experiment. See what happens to you.
Obviously i would not attempt it. Of course i would expect you would not be able to realize this on your own. But why do you think it would be so difficult to drive an unmarked truck into a governer's mansion? It doesnt even have to be a governer's mansion. It could be any federal building present through all 50 states. Even if the target were dairy queens across the country it would create quite an uproar.

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zahudulallah said:

Why haven't U.S. soldiers left Afghanistan?

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So our government is destined to never change and ultimately make the same incorrect decisions over and over again.

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Of course none of this matters as the other option which is to leave will prove to be a worse outcome then if we stayed. What a great way to disenfranchise every single iraqi we havent already. What a fucking great idea.

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And i don't trust them to do this, the possible outcome based on what has occurred already seems better if we stayed than if we left. The issue still remains that what the insurgents are doing is counter productive and their tactics are retarded.

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First of all the insurgency is likely several thousand. And i don't accept your point that if the majority of the iraqis were on our side insurgents would be getting caught with their help. Most countries apart from America and especially 3rd world countries differs greatly from America. America was founded on a watch dog mentality as one could discover if they studied the purtian origin of America. In places like Iraq people tend to leave others alone as life is very cheap along with a multiplitude of reasons.

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zahudulallah said:

OBL doesn't represent the sentiments of Muslims.

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silversoul7 said:

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