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Offlinedeafpanda
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Strength of beliefs
    #3399944 - 11/23/04 08:43 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

How probable does something have to be for you to believe it?

If you are 51% sure that x is true then would you say "I believe x" or do you need a higher probability than that?


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: Strength of beliefs [Re: deafpanda]
    #3399958 - 11/23/04 08:45 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

100%.

Below that and it should not be a "belief" in my mind...


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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: Strength of beliefs [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #3399969 - 11/23/04 08:48 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

But very little is 100%. If I limited my beliefs to what I thought was certain then I'd have a few core beliefs but no political, moral or philosophical beliefs.

I'd say that 100% (or as close as you can get, if 100% is not possible) is knowledge. Beliefs chime in somewhere lower, in my opinion.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Strength of beliefs [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #3399991 - 11/23/04 08:51 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Same as Jacques. 100% or you can't call it a "belief".

If you accept the fact that you are not 100% sure, you must also accept that the remaining % could also be true. If you can extend your belief to fit "this or that could be true" you should be OK, I guess.


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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: Strength of beliefs [Re: trendal]
    #3400014 - 11/23/04 08:54 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I think that the word belief implies the possibility of error, otherwise it would be knowledge, surely?

When I say "I believe that the cheese is in the fridge", I am taking a weaker position than if I say "I know the cheese is in the fridge". By your criteria, both statements would be the same, no?


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: Strength of beliefs [Re: deafpanda]
    #3400041 - 11/23/04 09:00 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

"If I limited my beliefs to what I thought was certain then I'd have a few core beliefs but no political, moral or philosophical beliefs."

Bingo. Have you ever heard of the 99.9% rule? It says to never be more than 99.9% sure of anything, because when you go to 100% you are deceiving yourself.

Remember, even when you don't have ANY "political, moral or philosophical beliefs" you CAN still have political, moral, and philosophical opinions, theories, and thoughts.

It is when those opinions, theories, and thoughts solidify into beliefs that you are in trouble--in my humble opinion. :smile:


Edited by JacquesCousteau (11/23/04 09:06 PM)


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: Strength of beliefs [Re: deafpanda]
    #3400059 - 11/23/04 09:04 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

deafpanda said:
When I say "I believe that the cheese is in the fridge", I am taking a weaker position than if I say "I know the cheese is in the fridge". By your criteria, both statements would be the same, no?




Semantics. The word "belief" does not necessarily imply a less-than-sure state. It's just that the word "belief" CAN be used to describe both an absolutely concrete opinion OR a "mostly sure" opinion.

Ex:

Concrete useage: "I believe in God."

Versus

Casual useage: "We may have some corn left, I believe..."

I assumed that you meant the concrete version when responding to this the first time.

Edit: Furthermore, the casual context is usually not assumed when questioning things such as "strength of beliefs," so I feel that my assumption was not completely unbased.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Strength of beliefs [Re: deafpanda]
    #3400105 - 11/23/04 09:13 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I like my beliefs like my Tylenol; extra strength. How many here just take strength Tylenol?


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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: Strength of beliefs [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #3400108 - 11/23/04 09:14 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Hmm....semantics indeed.

The dictionary tells me that a belief is the conviction of the truth of some statement or state of affairs.

Knowledge, using the standard definition, is justified true belief, that is belief that you have a good justification to believe, and is true. It seems that there must be a difference between the two, informal usage aside. Do you think that the concrete sense of "belief" implies 100% (or 99.9%, or whatever) certainty?


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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: Strength of beliefs [Re: deafpanda]
    #3400156 - 11/23/04 09:23 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I want there to be a word that means "I think that it is more likely than not that this statement is true", that's the only real point of this thread. "Think" and "believe" don't cut it.


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: Strength of beliefs [Re: deafpanda]
    #3400196 - 11/23/04 09:30 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I think it implies 100% certainty--which is why I adhere to not committing myself 100%--therefore do not agree with holding beliefs.

If I know something with 99.9% assuredness I not only remain capable of questioning that "thing", but also have enough assuredness to act on it if necessary in an extreme situation that requires "gut reaction."

In the event that I was wrong, and it is too late to remedy the situation, I do not have to live in a form of denial that comes from not questioning beliefs that have proven themselves wrong to you.

By becoming 100% sure of anything, you are throwing objectivity and open-mindedness (on the subject at hand.) out the window.


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: Strength of beliefs [Re: deafpanda]
    #3400202 - 11/23/04 09:31 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

deafpanda said:
I want there to be a word that means "I think that it is more likely than not that this statement is true", that's the only real point of this thread. "Think" and "believe" don't cut it.




What's wrong with "I think" this or that? I think that works fine. :P


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Strength of beliefs [Re: deafpanda]
    #3400222 - 11/23/04 09:34 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I like to use beleifs as a creative tool.

Look at all the different realities each one of us inhabits individually while supposably sharing the same reality. We are in different ones within THE one because of our individual and personal beliefs and opinions about it.

The one reality is made up of all the individual ones put together.

You can't get a republican rally going in a room full of democrats. You can't start a war with a bunch of Mother Theresas. Beleifs shape and define the contents of our individual and collective realities, the worlds within the world we alone or in groups inhabit.

If you want to change your reality, use the creative tool of changing some beleifs about it. Maybe the actual physical stuff will not change, but your percepetion and experience with it will.

Ever find someone to be totally distasteful and then hear another say, I think she's great! How can that be if you are talking about the same person?

Beleifs and opinions are creative tools to me. From one perspective, even knowledge and wisdom can be seen as derivitives of beliefs about them being so.

The sooner you quit needing abosulutes to stand and lean on to feel safe, strong and secure, the sooner you can start creating life as you wish it to be. Absolutes don't exist. Consider that everything you stand on has the potential to crack wide open from under your feet at any time. Consider that what ever you lean on has the potential to fall over at anytime.

If you can get use to the idea of standing on nothing and leaning on nothing, you'll always be okay and free to live in the reality you wish to craft for yourself with beleifs and opinions.

Just something to think about.


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: Strength of beliefs [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3400236 - 11/23/04 09:36 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:


The sooner you quit needing abosulutes to stand and lean on to feel safe, strong and secure, the sooner you can start creating life as you wish it to be. Absolutes don't exist. Consider that everything you stand on has the potential to crack wide open from under your feet at any time. Consider that what ever you lean on has the potential to fall over at anytime.

If you can get use to the idea of standing on nothing and leaning on nothing, you'll always be okay and free to live in the reality you wish to craft for yourself with beleifs and opinions.





Ding!  :thumbup:


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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: Strength of beliefs [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #3400246 - 11/23/04 09:39 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

People still take it the wrong way when you say "I think", although less so than if you say "I believe". THey think you're pretty sure. I want a word that means I judge the probability of something being true at over 50%. I want it now, baby. Call me a meanings nazi, but words should be properly defined so we all know what we're talking about :P


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Offlinethe_phoenix
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Re: Strength of beliefs [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #3400262 - 11/23/04 09:43 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

It's wrong to view belief in polarities, that is, as either believing or not believing. Rather, there are an infinite amount of possible degrees of belief. The stronger the belief, the more subtly it is manifested, and conversely, the weaker the belief, the less subtly it is manifested.

For example, people will often voice their opinion--manifest it tangibly via words--if it is weak, in order to convince themselves (and not, as they may believe, the people with whom they are speaking). At the other end of the spectrum, the strongest belief is embodied. For example, god IS truth. In other words, the stronger the belief, the more it is embodied and, accordingly, subtly manifested. In the case of god, it is manifested in the subtlest way possible--pure consciousness.

A weak belief is seperated from the believer and exists as an independent idea. A stronger belief is acted upon and exists in the actions of the believer. Existence is absolute belief.


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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: Strength of beliefs [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3400263 - 11/23/04 09:43 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

The sooner you quit needing abosulutes to stand and lean on to feel safe, strong and secure, the sooner you can start creating life as you wish it to be. Absolutes don't exist. Consider that everything you stand on has the potential to crack wide open from under your feet at any time. Consider that what ever you lean on has the potential to fall over at anytime.




Mmmm...people's "beliefs", "opinions" and "knowledge" are like parts of a structure. The foundations are the things you're most sure about - that you exist, etc, and the higher up you get, the less sturdy your beliefs are, due to the fact that they are resting on lower beliefs which may not be true.


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: Strength of beliefs [Re: deafpanda]
    #3400267 - 11/23/04 09:43 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

deafpanda said:
People still take it the wrong way when you say "I think", although less so than if you say "I believe". THey think you're pretty sure. I want a word that means I judge the probability of something being true at over 50%. I want it now, baby. Call me a meanings nazi, but words should be properly defined so we all know what we're talking about :P




Well yeah.. but that limitation exists in every form of language. It is just part of the deal.. words do not do a great job of expressing thoughts.

In a situation such as this, you simply have to accept that this is the state of things and try your best to work around it by being more explicit and articulate with the way you word things.

Or, in other words, you're gonna have to say "I judge the probability of something being true at over 50%." Because that is the only way anyone's going to know what you actually mean.


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Re: Strength of beliefs [Re: deafpanda]
    #3400398 - 11/23/04 10:09 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Ya panda, you got the visual on how they are used as creative tools for building the structure of the reality you inhabit alone or with other like minds.

One who puts a strong belief in war and domainance down as a foundation and weak beleif of peace up on the roof as one shingle is creating a reality structure they will live in.

One who builds with strong beleifs of peace as their foundation with weak beleifs in war is creating another relity structure they will inhabit.

Look around, be an observer. Listen to the realities people live in and match them with their beleifs and see how they are tied togther by this bulding sytem.

Play around with your own and realise it takes time and conditioning for beleifs to weaken and strengthen as you tare down and rebuild your personal reality structure.


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General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

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