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InvisibleKyKid
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Registered: 10/22/04
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karo to karo transfers
    #3388282 - 11/20/04 10:09 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

hey, I'm still new to using Karo and i got a full understanding of it but there's a couple things id like to know about it if anyone knows off the top pf there head. thanks..
I got a liquid culture that i have been using alot lately and i haven't been adding Karo as i should when i take from the culture, so instead of filling it back up with Karo can i simply make a syringe out of the last culture in the jar and inject it into a full jar of new Karo solution? I know i can and it will work but the main intention of the question is to get any downfalls of doing this and any pluses of it. thanks again...


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Offlinelemon_lw
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Re: karo to karo transfers [Re: KyKid]
    #3388287 - 11/20/04 10:12 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

plus: if you constantly did a karo to karo you would never have to wait that 6 days for spore germination.


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OfflineMadHatR
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Re: karo to karo transfers [Re: lemon_lw]
    #3389418 - 11/20/04 04:08 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

No real downsides, in my opinion if done right it is actually a better way of doing it. Shooting Karo in over and over again risks contamination every time. I find when doing liquid I take part of the first syringe out of it and knock up a new jar of Karo. The new jar takes off pretty fast and since you are not shooting Karo into it every few days it allows it to get a stronger hold. Then I can take syringes out of the old jar until it is empty. By the time it is empty the new jar is done. Only downside is at times some goes to waste because you can not reach it.


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Invisiblemuse_sick
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Re: karo to karo transfers [Re: KyKid]
    #3389433 - 11/20/04 04:14 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Stamets advises against going more than three generations with g2g transfers to maintain the purity of the strain. It would be wise to heed this warning with karo to karo as well.


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InvisibleKyKid
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Re: karo to karo transfers [Re: MadHatR]
    #3389434 - 11/20/04 04:15 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

thanks


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Invisiblederx
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Re: karo to karo transfers [Re: KyKid]
    #3389532 - 11/20/04 04:44 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

the reason for the 3 generation transfers is because after millions and millions of cell divisions, its possible mutated cells will be transfered and more mutations. In karo, the cultures are very small compared to a quart jar. I don't think it would cause problems to go past 3 in a karo jar. Now if what Staments states is indeed true, I would not go past 6 or 7.


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OfflineMushroomFriend
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Re: karo to karo transfers [Re: derx]
    #3389681 - 11/20/04 05:22 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I dont understand this with generations, karo to karo to karo to ...etc, isnt that the same generation just spreading/colonizing further and further?


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Invisiblederx
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Re: karo to karo transfers [Re: MushroomFriend]
    #3389740 - 11/20/04 05:36 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Yes/No. The first generation is the spores, these germinate and colonize into mycelium. Mycelium then multiplies and multiplies. Every so often a genetic mutation occurs. If you take a sample from this colonizing mycelium it is less pure than the original spores. Now if you take the sample and spawn more substrate with this 1st impure generation that may contain genetic mutations, the 2nd will get more mutations. So on and so fourth. That is the whole thing about different generations. Essentially it is the same generation but after millions and millions of miotic divisions, mutations happen.


--------------------
better living through chemistry

OVERGROW the government!!

it's not a war on drugs, it's a war on personal freedom, ok, thats what it is.


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OfflineIGnosticAbhorI
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Re: karo to karo transfers [Re: derx]
    #3389761 - 11/20/04 05:40 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Derx is right, eventually ya just gotta move on : / Gl


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OfflineMushroomFriend
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Re: karo to karo transfers [Re: derx]
    #3389890 - 11/20/04 06:08 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Ok, Me as a non-mycoligist just saw upon it as an ongoing spreading of roots, like from ONE tree. Just liek the bamboo in my garden which forms new plants evrywhere out of existing ones, they are all connected, sumtin like that.


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Invisiblederx
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Re: karo to karo transfers [Re: MushroomFriend]
    #3389899 - 11/20/04 06:10 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

ya, plants and fungi are totally different.


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better living through chemistry

OVERGROW the government!!

it's not a war on drugs, it's a war on personal freedom, ok, thats what it is.


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OfflineMushroomFriend
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Re: karo to karo transfers [Re: derx]
    #3390110 - 11/20/04 07:11 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

yes but the idea, like if you inoculate a quart grain with some CC sporesyringe it would be more multiplied mycelium together when fully colonized then, cup of karo --> cup of karo --> cup of karo --> cup of karo.

I must be missing something?


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OfflineMadHatR
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Re: karo to karo transfers [Re: MushroomFriend]
    #3390443 - 11/20/04 09:06 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Any way you look at it, either by shooting new Karo into a jar, or removing some and starting a new jar in time mutations are going to happen. When you move some you are in turn only removing a small amount of the original spores that were injected. Shooting Karo in after taking some out for your G2G you are just adding more food after removing spores. So every time you are taking some out you are limiting the number of original spore "families" it has to work with. That is why I prefer to move some to a new jar. It is easier to judge how thin I have spread the original number of spores. When you just shoot fresh Karo in every time it can be hard to judge how many times you have split the genetic pool up. Before you know it you just have a few families left in there inbreeding and causing mutations. 1 liquid jar can make 10 new ones without spreading it to thin. The 10 jars can make 100 grain jars, and the 100 grain jars can make 1000 jars using G2G. All that from just a few cc from the original syringe without fear of mutation. Then you just start over again with your original syringe. That's about 5000 quarts from 1 syringe. If you can't get some good fresh spores, or a few good ones to clone from that then and only then to you spend another whooping $15 for another syringe.


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Following the rules is for dealers, knowing why the rules work is for innovators.

"Knowing is half the battle." - G.I. Joe

Never Judge a man until you walk a mile in his shoe, because then you are a mile away and you have his shoes.


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Offlinespliffmasta
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Re: karo to karo transfers [Re: MadHatR]
    #3390840 - 11/20/04 11:04 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

So the myc isn't "growing", it is cloning itself over and over?

Explain to me what the difference is between colonizing a 10 gal jar with no contams and doing a karo to karo transfer 5ish times? You're just moving it to another container to continue on its equivalent journey around the 10 gals of medium aren't ya?


Edited by spliffmasta (11/20/04 11:06 PM)


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Offlinediscman1
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Re: karo to karo transfers [Re: spliffmasta]
    #3390869 - 11/20/04 11:12 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

It has to do with the number of cell divisions. Stamets actually has formulas for it, like how many divisions it takes to fill a petri, etc.

The generational thing certainly applies to karo, but it seems to me that it is much more pronounced in G2G since the number of cell divisions to colonize a whole jar of substrate is many, many more than to colonize a small jar of sugar water.

I would agree with 6-7 generations.

It is confusing to me too, but it makes sense. I'm beginning to grasp it. They're much different than plants....


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Offlinespliffmasta
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Re: karo to karo transfers [Re: discman1]
    #3390873 - 11/20/04 11:13 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Yep, well if that's what the master says...
I wouldn't mind making a single print every 6 or 7 harvests :wink:


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Invisiblederx
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Re: karo to karo transfers [Re: spliffmasta]
    #3391447 - 11/21/04 01:27 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

If you're colonizing a 10 gallon jar, mutations will happen. Its not advisable to colonize such a large jar. As i among others have stated, You're using a degenerated "clone" of the original cell that may contain mutated cells. It works as an expondential function. The number of jars is irrelevent, its the number of divisions. I dont have anymore time to explain, I've gotta bounce. I'll explain better when i get back, peace.


--------------------
better living through chemistry

OVERGROW the government!!

it's not a war on drugs, it's a war on personal freedom, ok, thats what it is.


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OfflineMadHatR
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Re: karo to karo transfers [Re: derx]
    #3391833 - 11/21/04 03:28 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

While cell division is what is actually happening, often times the concept can be difficult to grasp. So in relation to humans let's say that the syringe containing spores is a life-form more closely related to human, heck let's call them "people". So you have this syringe full of a few million people, and you shot up a Karo jar with a cc of lets say 100 people. So these people get about there business of eating Karo, having a good old time rotting out their little teeth out and when the mood is right (these people only like to do it with the lights out and with it being around 86F, maybe with a little Barry White music playing) they start getting jiggy with it. Ok well they missed that day in health class and think you can't get preggers if you do in in water. To their dismay one of them gets knocked up and a few minutes later they pop out a kid. Well this kid quickly grows up, on a diet of mainly sugar that is bound to happen, and they start getting jiggy with it to (kid mushies having kid mushies, what is this world coming to). Well with only 100 families to choose from before you know it the great-great-great grand-kids are going to town with their cousins. This may be ok in some states which I wont mention but it can spit out some strange looking kids. The kid with the bad eyesight and the kid with the really bad overbite just had their own little nearsighted kid with bad teeth. On down the line it goes. Their are no little mushie doctors to fix all of this, but it is still dark, warm and Berry White music is still playing so the mutations continue. Now when you are taking them out to feed on either grain or another jar of Karo you are only grabbing up a few dozen families, that is going to limit your number of doable other people without problems popping up. The problems are easier to see when G2G is done due to the fact that they have a quart to grow over instead of a pint. I would say that if you plan on going to many Karo jars from the first that you should shoot up the first with a large number of cc's, but their is no way of telling when you go to remove them that you are taking small samples from each family instead of a bunch from the same one. The best thing to do is limit the number of transfer that are done. If done right 1 syringe can last you a long time with only 1 or 2 transfers actually being done.


--------------------
Following the rules is for dealers, knowing why the rules work is for innovators.

"Knowing is half the battle." - G.I. Joe

Never Judge a man until you walk a mile in his shoe, because then you are a mile away and you have his shoes.


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OfflineMushroomFriend
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Re: karo to karo transfers [Re: discman1]
    #3392264 - 11/21/04 07:08 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Yes yes different then plants but I dont understand why mutations are more likely to occur when one does  the karo 2 karo 4 times while half the world is growing quart jars of grain.

The same volume of mycelium spreading from original source? When that quart is used as spawn in a gallon of straw, even more mycelium from same source will be growing.

I dont get it... :frown:


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OfflineMushroomFriend
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Re: karo to karo transfers [Re: derx]
    #3392267 - 11/21/04 07:10 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Ok now I get something of it!

*Edit*
Now I read madhats post explaining further where Derx stopped. This makes sense to me .

Its just about amount/volume of mycelium growing from a (narrow) base of spores, doesnt matter if its karo, grain, or how many times it is transferred.
Even mycelium forming from a whole sporesyringe will cause mutations sooner or later.

Transfering, g2g, k2k, h2h (lol) accelaretes inbreed cause you only transfer a part of the mycelium making the base smaller in the new jar/substrate.

Did I get it?

Ok now another question, spores germinating from 1 specific mushroom will they mutate sooner then spores from different mushrooms?


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Edited by MushroomFriend (11/21/04 07:25 AM)


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