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OfflineLibertarian
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Are any of you voting for Badnarik?
    #3076918 - 09/01/04 06:10 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

I am a Progressive, who is uncomfortable with the Libertarian Economic stance, but they are allies in the social arena. here is the Libertrian Party canidate Stance on the Drug War:

Quote:

Medical Marijuana and the Federal War on Drugs
In the 2000 campaign for president, George W. Bush said that the federal government should not interfere with the medical marijuana policies of the several states. Like so many other promises, he went back on his word and has closed down medical marijuana facilities permitted by state governments.

This is an outrage. The federal government has no constitutional authority to interfere with state drug policies. When the federal government outlawed alcohol, it required a constitutional amendment to do so. Nonetheless it has assumed the legal authority to wage its "War on Drugs."

According to nearly every scientific study on the subject, including ones conducted by the government, medical marijuana provides unique relief to patients suffering from cancer, AIDS, glaucoma and other illnesses, and the drug does not have the same addictive properties as alcohol.

The federally approved Marinol contains the psychoactive THC but lacks other cannabinoids crucial to marijuana as an effective medicine. This is one of the many insanities of federal drug policy, which categorizes a plant that has never been shown to kill anyone as more illegal than cocaine, and certainly more illegal than alcohol.

Though smoking marijuana?just as smoking tobacco?can cause harm to the lungs and respiratory system, the drug can also be ingested and vaporized so as to prevent such unwanted side effects.

On a fundamental level, Libertarians believe that it is the unalienable and constitutional right of individuals to medicate themselves and choose for themselves what to put into their bodies, as long as they live up to the consequences of their actions. The federal government has no proper say in the matter, and state governments violate the rights of the people in their own attempts to enforce morality. The decision to ingest, smoke or consume any drug should be up to the individual, under the advice of his or her physician, when appropriate. Locking people up for trying to relieve their pain is cruel and unusual punishment for an act that hurts no one.

The Drug War has led to some of the worst violations of the constitutional liberties of Americans, as well as to the worst wave of violent crime in American history since Alcohol Prohibition. It has been used to rationalize unlawful searches and seizures, corruption of the court system, no-knock raids, racial profiling, and "civil asset forfeiture"?a policy whereby government officials can confiscate private property without even charging anyone with a crime. The War on Drugs, more than anything else, has served as a means of destroying the Bill of Rights. It has also led to excessive taxes and spending, costing more than 40 billion dollars a year to arrest, prosecute and imprison non-violent drug offenders.

Drug Prohibition has caused gang warfare and other violent crime by raising the prices of drugs so much that vicious criminals enter the market to make astronomical profits, and addicts rob and steal to get money to pay the inflated prices for their drugs. On average, drug prisoners spend more time in federal prison than rapists, who often get out on early release because of the over-crowding in prison caused by the Drug War. While violent criminals can usually have their sentences reduced, drug offenders are subject to "mandatory minimums," which strip away judicial discretion and force judges to put users and dealers in prison for decades. This has to stop.

The Drug War also has funded terrorists; providing them with opportunities for enormous profits, and even by giving foreign aid to such regimes as the Taliban as long as they promised to have "tough drug" policies.

The Drug War does not curb demand, it barely reduces supply, however it makes America much more dangerous and much less free.

A Libertarian president would order federal officials to cease and desist in harassing medical marijuana patients and would block federal spending on the War on Drugs. Nonviolent drug offenders would be released from federal prison, and each state would choose its own drug policy, just as each chose its own alcohol policy when alcohol Prohibition was repealed. Libertarians would hope and expect most states to come around and severely reform their policies to make them more humane and less at odds with the Constitution and the American way of life.

I'm Michael Badnarik, Libertarian for President. I ask the tough questions---to give you answers that really work!






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OfflineAncalagon
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Re: Are any of you voting for Badnarik? [Re: Libertarian]
    #3077068 - 09/01/04 07:47 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Yes, quite a few of us are voting for Michael Badnarik.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Are any of you voting for Badnarik? [Re: Libertarian]
    #3077071 - 09/01/04 07:48 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

A vote for Badnarik is a vote for Bush, so no.

A vote for Nader is also a vote for Bush. He's the entire reason that we have radical republicans in power.


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OfflineAncalagon
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Re: Are any of you voting for Badnarik? [Re: fastfred]
    #3077074 - 09/01/04 07:50 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

A vote for Badnarik is a vote for Bush, so no.

A vote for Nader is also a vote for Bush. He's the entire reason that we have radical republicans in power.



Bullshit as usual.

Kerry 0 Bush 0 Badnarik 0.

You cast a vote for Badnarik.

Kerry 0 Bush 0 Badnarik 1.

The major party candidates do not own your vote, you own your vote.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Are any of you voting for Badnarik? [Re: Ancalagon]
    #3077076 - 09/01/04 07:51 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Ancalagon said:
Yes, quite a few of us are voting for Michael Badnarik.





Ahh... more votes for the radical republicans.

Doesn't it bother you to vote for a republican?

I hope you enjoy your "faith based initiative" while you're at the soup kitchen.


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OfflineAncalagon
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Re: Are any of you voting for Badnarik? [Re: fastfred]
    #3077083 - 09/01/04 07:54 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Ahh... more votes for the radical republicans.



Ah... another 'anybody but Bush' ignoramus.

Quote:

Doesn't it bother you to vote for a republican?




I suppose it would if I was indeed voting for a republican. Almost as much as it would to vote for a Democrat.

Quote:

I hope you enjoy your "faith based initiative" while you're at the soup kitchen.



Oh, does John Kerry not support that? So there is some divergence between the two major party shithouse candidates!


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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Offlineglimmi
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Re: Are any of you voting for Badnarik? [Re: fastfred]
    #3077091 - 09/01/04 08:00 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

I agree a vote for any 3rd party candidate is just as good as a vote for bush.
If you really wanna see bush out of office the only way thats going to be accomplished is if we vote kerry. Personally id much rather see Badnarik in office than kerry but thats not a realistic goal. So my vote goes to kerry.


--------------------
"This stuff it makes pure mescaline seem like...ginger beer man" Hunter S. Thompson


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Are any of you voting for Badnarik? [Re: Ancalagon]
    #3077094 - 09/01/04 08:01 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Uhh... do you follow politics at all?

No, Kerry doesn't support government sponsored religion. Only the radical republicans support that.

You need to think for a bit before you cast your vote... Voting for Badnarik is not simply throwing your vote away, it's the same as voting for Bush.

So again... I hope you enjoy your "faith based initiative" while you're in line at the soup kitchen.


-FF


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OfflineAncalagon
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Re: Are any of you voting for Badnarik? [Re: fastfred]
    #3077103 - 09/01/04 08:07 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Uhh... do you follow politics at all?



I like to think so.

Quote:

No, Kerry doesn't support government sponsored religion. Only the radical republicans support that.




Was sarcasm playing off the fact that the policies and planks of George Bush and John Kerry are ridiculously similar.

Quote:

You need to think for a bit before you cast your vote...



Always thinking.

Quote:

Voting for Badnarik is not simply throwing your vote away, it's the same as voting for Bush.




You're going to need to prove this absolute idiocy. How does Bush gain a vote if I cast my vote for Badnarik? So you know though, you're in good(or bad...) company. Annapurna expouses the same exact fallacy.

Quote:

So again... I hope you enjoy your "faith based initiative" while you're in line at the soup kitchen.




I hope you enjoy your return to economic recession/depression, and your Iraq war, and your Patriot Act, etc.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Are any of you voting for Badnarik? [Re: Ancalagon]
    #3077117 - 09/01/04 08:19 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Ancalagon said:You're going to need to prove this absolute idiocy. How does Bush gain a vote if I cast my vote for Badnarik? So you know though, you're in good(or bad...) company. Annapurna expouses the same exact fallacy.




Well if you were going to vote for Bush, then I guess voting for Badnarik would be a vote for Kerry. I think that's rarely the case though.

The thing you have to realize is that Badnarik has ZERO chance of winning the election, or even carrying a state. Even if Bush, Kerry, Cheney, and Edwards all died simultaneously Badnarik would not win. Even if Nader and his running mate also died he would not win. In short you have a better chance of winning the lottery 3 times in a row than Badnarik has of winning.

So you're throwing your vote away... But it's even worse than that becasue most of those votes are going to be taken away from Kerry, hence voting for Badnarik is a vote for Bush. Same with Nader.


Quote:


I hope you enjoy your return to economic recession/depression, and your Iraq war, and your Patriot Act, etc.




Well... I'm not planning on voting for Bush so hopefully that won't happen.


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OfflineAncalagon
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Re: Are any of you voting for Badnarik? [Re: fastfred]
    #3077200 - 09/01/04 09:11 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:


Well if you were going to vote for Bush, then I guess voting for Badnarik would be a vote for Kerry. I think that's rarely the case though.




I don't suppose you've considered that most of the people voting for Badnarik and other third party candidates are doing so instead of both major-party candidates, not one over the other. Again, George Bush and/or John Kerry does not own my vote, I own my vote.

Quote:

The thing you have to realize is that Badnarik has ZERO chance of winning the election, or even carrying a state.



Not ZERO chance, but I'll grant you that it's very slim.

Quote:


So you're throwing your vote away...



That's a nice logical leap, the person I'm voting for doesn't have a good chance of winning, therefore I'm throwing away my vote. If you were in jail, and you had a 50% chance of the Electric Chair, a 49% chance of Lethal Injection, and a 1% chance of escape, would you go with the death penalty options just because those have a realistic chance of happening? The only wasted vote in my opinion is a vote for a candidate that you don't respect. Keep voting for the lesser of two evils and you won't get anything but evil.

Quote:

But it's even worse than that becasue most of those votes are going to be taken away from Kerry, hence voting for Badnarik is a vote for Bush.



You think most Badnarik voters would otherwise vote for Kerry? Prove it. Libertarians comprise both fiscal conservatives and social liberals, though the vast majority of libertarian voters are both. You need to understand that a great many Badnarik(and other third party) voters don't think to themselves, 'I'm voting for this guy instead of Bush or Kerry.' Many, libertarian at least, voters are voting for Badnarik because he is the ONLY candidate that desires liberty in the United States. They would not be voting for Bush or Kerry if a libertarian candidate did not exist, they would most likely not be voting.

Quote:

Well... I'm not planning on voting for Bush so hopefully that won't happen.



Guess it's a shame a Kerry administration would lead to the aforementioned things. Wake up and realize how very similar George Bush and John Kerry are. They are one in the same.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Are any of you voting for Badnarik? [Re: Ancalagon]
    #3077258 - 09/01/04 09:34 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

>Guess it's a shame a Kerry administration would lead to the aforementioned things. Wake up and realize how very similar George Bush and John Kerry are. They are one in the same.<

Oh... You must be one of those conspiracy theory crackpots... That explains a lot.

Let's review what the "aforementioned things" are. Faith based initiave... Kerry isn't for that. Only radical republicans are for that.

And yes I do think that most Badnarik voters would vote democrat. There are no "fiscal conservatives" running on the republican ticket. Using the term conservative to describe the republican party is absurd. The republicans have shifted hard to the right, into radical land.

If you want radical politics to dominate for the next four years then vote republican, green, or libertarian. If you'd rather mantain some semblance of the status quo, then vote democrat. It's as simple as that.

You admit that Badnarik's chances are slim... Well that's being generous. They're actually zero. It's sad... And Yes I'm a libertairian at heart, but voting that way is voting for Bush. The same thing happened last time with Nader.

Becasue an environmentalist with no chance wouldn't drop out of the race, we got Bush, one of the worst environmental abusers of all time.

Do you see the point?


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Anonymous

Re: Are any of you voting for Badnarik? [Re: fastfred]
    #3077295 - 09/01/04 09:57 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

If you'd rather mantain some semblance of the status quo, then vote democrat.

Ah the status quo. What a great vision to strive for. Ironically, I believe it's the conservatives who are supposed to be keeping the status quo, but I guess they gave up on that.

Bush has got his religion mixed into politics and Kerry has his liberal fiscal policy, so I'm voting for neither of them. Btw the argument about 'throwing away' votes has been done to death. See here.


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Are any of you voting for Badnarik? [Re: ]
    #3077333 - 09/01/04 10:17 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

>liberal fiscal policy<

I think paying for three wars with a tax cut for the rich is pretty radical policy.

What's so liberal about Kerry or conservative about Bush... Nothing!

I guess it's liberal to raise the minimum wage... Wrong! The status quo is that it gets raised occasionaly to keep up with inflation and whatnot. Freezing it is *radical*.

Faith based initiatave... Conservative or radical? That one should be obvious.

Tax cuts for the rich? Radical...

So on and so forth.... Bush is probably the most radical candidate since WWII.

They may try to paint Kerry as a liberal... But what he's trying to do is a lot closer to the status quo than Bush will ever be.


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OfflineAncalagon
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Re: Are any of you voting for Badnarik? [Re: fastfred]
    #3077379 - 09/01/04 10:39 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Oh... You must be one of those conspiracy theory crackpots... That explains a lot.



Not sure why you would even venture such a moronic guess. Wrong.

Quote:


Let's review what the "aforementioned things" are. Faith based initiave... Kerry isn't for that. Only radical republicans are for that.




I'm not talking about relatively unimportant faith based initiatives. I'm talking about things I mentioned(hence, aformentioned things): the War in Iraq which Kerry supports fully and plans to throw 40,000 more troops to, the Patriot Act which Kerry voted for WITHOUT FUCKING READING IT(see: dereliction of duty, violation of the supreme law of the land, TREASON), and economic policies which are systemically destroying the capitalist system that made America the greatest economic power the world had ever seen and a beacon of freedom and opportunity to the rest of the world. Those are the aforementioned things I was referring to. All three of those things both Bush and Kerry support. Kerry, in general Kerry fashion, says he would simply do those things better.

Quote:


And yes I do think that most Badnarik voters would vote democrat.



I wonder why...

Quote:

There are no "fiscal conservatives" running on the republican ticket.



I'm speechless. So the train of logic now is: Fiscal conservatives would generally vote Republican. Bush is not a fiscal conservative. So they would now betray their principles ENTIRELY and vote for the most liberal member of the US Senate. Badnarik and the Libertarians come along and steal these hard earned Kerry votes. You can't seriously believe that, can you?

Quote:

Using the term conservative to describe the republican party is absurd.



I agree. I think both George Bush and John Kerry would fall into the Authoritarian section of the Nolan Chart.

Quote:

If you want radical politics to dominate for the next four years then vote republican, green, or libertarian. If you'd rather mantain some semblance of the status quo, then vote democrat. It's as simple as that.



Do you feel that the Democrats actually move this country in the right direction or are they simply the lesser of two evils? I'd try switching my argument if I was you; the reason us 'radicals' are voting third party is because continuing the status quo(which, it has been said, is not actually static...it is the exponential increase in the size and scope of government with each new administration) is and will be cataclysmic for this country.

Quote:


You admit that Badnarik's chances are slim... Well that's being generous. They're actually zero.



How about taking a basic statistics class? They're not zero.

Quote:

It's sad... And Yes I'm a libertairian at heart, but voting that way is voting for Bush. The same thing happened last time with Nader.




Are you aware that more Democrats voted for Bush in Florida than Democrats voted for Nader? Again, you need to open your eyes. Both the Republicans and Democrats are taking this country right off the cliff, one happens to be getting there on the left side of the road and the other on the right. Neither party stands for anything close to what this country was supposed to represent; Individual Liberty, Free Markets, Limited Government, and Non-Intervention. I will continue to vote my conscience and I hope the rest of America wakes up and does the same.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Are any of you voting for Badnarik? [Re: Ancalagon]
    #3077410 - 09/01/04 10:52 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

>How about taking a basic statistics class? They're not zero.

Under what scenario do you see Badnarik winning? As I mentioned before, even the deaths of all involved except Badnarik would not result in him winning...


Putting aside the idea of using imaginary or irrational numbers as a result of your calculations... The chance is zero.


-FF


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Anonymous

Re: Are any of you voting for Badnarik? [Re: fastfred]
    #3077431 - 09/01/04 11:06 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Statistically, all candidates have an equal chance of winning.


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InvisibleKingOftheThing
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Re: Are any of you voting for Badnarik? [Re: ]
    #3077455 - 09/01/04 11:18 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Max Headroom said:
Statistically, all candidates have an equal chance of winning.




i doubt badarnick is on all the ballots, nader isnt either... dems should be trying to get badarnick on more ballots as repubs are helping nader


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Are any of you voting for Badnarik? [Re: fastfred]
    #3077505 - 09/01/04 11:44 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Voting for Badnarik is not simply throwing your vote away, it's the same as voting for Bush.




If lets say Hitler and Stalin (or pick any one person that you despise) were running for president and you hate the two people running and there was a third option in Badnarick. Lets say the chance of Badarick winning is pretty slim who would you vote for? A vote for the two major candidates is a vote for your rights to be minimized.

I'm voting for Badnarick because we need a change but i'm realistic enough to know it's just a protest vote.


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"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Anonymous

Re: Are any of you voting for Badnarik? [Re: fastfred]
    #3077507 - 09/01/04 11:45 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

your vote alone isn't going to elect a libertarian or green, but your vote alone isn't going to elect a republican or democrat either.

i cannot vote for a politician i do not support. that's really the bottom line. if i could only choose between either bush or kerry, i simply wouldn't vote.


Edited by Anonymous (09/01/04 11:53 AM)


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