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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: An interview with Michael Badnarik [Re: DoctorJ]
    #3004406 - 08/14/04 03:19 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

One reason why so many European countries are ahead of us in education is not because it's funded by the government, but because they separate the college-bound kids from those who go into apprenticeships. This way, those who desire to go further with their education can be in a productive environment, while those who would rather be a mechanic, carpenter, etc. go on a separate track and can go to trade school to learn those skills instead.

As for public education, it is one of many issues on which I have not made up my mind entirely. I am highly skeptical of those who say the economy would collapse without it. However, I do believe that poor children should get a chance to advance themselves through education. I have yet to be convinced that public education is the only means to achieve this, but I'm open to the possiblity.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflinePhred
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Re: An interview with Michael Badnarik [Re: DoctorJ]
    #3004410 - 08/14/04 03:20 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

DoctorJ writes:

Even the quintessential libertarian hero, Thomas Jefferson, recognized the need for public education.

Hmmm. I thought I was pretty familiar with Jefferson's writings, but he was a prolific writer indeed, so I guess it's possible I missed the part where he advocated the federal government taxing US citizens in order to fund schools. I'm sure you could provide me the reference, though.

pinky


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OfflineJesusChrist
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Re: An interview with Michael Badnarik [Re: silversoul7]
    #3004428 - 08/14/04 03:28 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

School vouchers give the poor an opportunity for education while giving an option outside the government monopoly. Where the government fails we need to give the free market a chance.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: An interview with Michael Badnarik [Re: JesusChrist]
    #3004444 - 08/14/04 03:34 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

I'd be ok with vouchers except that the money for those still comes from taxpayers. I'd prefer a solution that didn't involve forcing people to pay for other people's education.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineAncalagon
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Re: An interview with Michael Badnarik [Re: DoctorJ]
    #3004509 - 08/14/04 03:53 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

place, eh? Who is that behind? Japan, and most of Europe, right? Do those countries have capitalist education systems?

I would hate to see an America in which education was controlled by private interests. For one, no one would be able to afford it, and for two, I distrust the motives of the businesses who would be teaching our children.

While I agree that the education system in the US is fucked up, I think it has more to do with curriculum and teaching methods than the source of funding.

Even the quintessential libertarian hero, Thomas Jefferson, recognized the need for public education. His accquiesence to this socialist contention in his otherwise libertarian philosophy is a sign of great wisdom and ideological flexibility. If only all libertarians were as openminded, instead of advocating across-the-board ideologies based in moral convictions which hold no objective validity in reality.



Michael is responding here to a question about No Child Left Behind. His answer is specifically with regard to FEDERAL government involvement in education. I would not bet on a Libertarian President(with a supportive congress) doing any more in a first administration than eliminating the DoE and returning the job of public education soley to the states. The more centralized education becomes, the more emphasis seems to be put on teaching to tests(for obvious monetary reasons) as opposed to teaching to learn. I think a great discussion could be had over public vs. private education but for the purposes of this thread, the platform of Michael Badnarik is that the 10th Amendment is applicable in this situation and the states should run their public education systems as they see fit.


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?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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OfflineJesusChrist
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Re: An interview with Michael Badnarik [Re: Ancalagon]
    #3004683 - 08/14/04 05:00 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Eliminating the DOE would be a good move.

How do you go about doing that? Do you need an act of Congress, or can the President do it himself? I was wondering who has the power to hire and fire the people that work at the Department of Education. If the President appoints the Head of the DOE, can that person simply just fire everyone below them and refuse to hire anyone?

Just curious. Lord knows that getting rid of government programs is a lot harder than creating them.


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: An interview with Michael Badnarik [Re: Phred]
    #3004702 - 08/14/04 05:09 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

pinksharkmark said:
DoctorJ writes:

Even the quintessential libertarian hero, Thomas Jefferson, recognized the need for public education.

Hmmm. I thought I was pretty familiar with Jefferson's writings, but he was a prolific writer indeed, so I guess it's possible I missed the part where he advocated the federal government taxing US citizens in order to fund schools. I'm sure you could provide me the reference, though.

pinky




"I know no safe depositary of the ultimate powers of the society but the people themselves; and if we think them not enlightened enough to exercise their control with a wholesome discretion, the remedy is not to take it from them, but to inform their discretion by education. This is the true corrective of abuses of constitutional power." --Thomas Jefferson to William C. Jarvis, 1820. ME 15:278

"Every government degenerates when trusted to the rulers of the people alone. The people themselves, therefore, are its only safe depositories. And to render even them safe, their minds must be improved to a certain degree." --Thomas Jefferson: Notes on Virginia Q.XIV, 1782. ME 2:207

"The most effectual means of preventing [the perversion of power into tyranny are] to illuminate, as far as practicable, the minds of the people at large, and more especially to give them knowledge of those facts which history exhibits, that possessed thereby of the experience of other ages and countries, they may be enabled to know ambition under all its shapes, and prompt to exert their natural powers to defeat its purposes." --Thomas Jefferson: Diffusion of Knowledge Bill, 1779. FE 2:221, Papers 2:526

"The information of the people at large can alone make them the safe as they are the sole depositary of our political and religious freedom." --Thomas Jefferson to William Duane, 1810. ME 12:417

"The diffusion of information and the arraignment of all abuses at the bar of public reason, I deem [one of] the essential principles of our government, and consequently [one of] those which ought to shape its administration." --Thomas Jefferson: 1st Inaugural Address, 1801. ME 3:322

"Though [the people] may acquiesce, they cannot approve what they do not understand." --Thomas Jefferson: Opinion on Apportionment Bill, 1792. ME 3:211


No Freedom Without Education

"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be." --Thomas Jefferson to Charles Yancey, 1816. ME 14:384

"Convinced that the people are the only safe depositories of their own liberty, and that they are not safe unless enlightened to a certain degree, I have looked on our present state of liberty as a short-lived possession unless the mass of the people could be informed to a certain degree." --Thomas Jefferson to Littleton Waller Tazewell, 1805.

"No nation is permitted to live in ignorance with impunity." --Thomas Jefferson: Virginia Board of Visitors Minutes, 1821. ME 19:408

"Freedom [is] the first-born daughter of science." --Thomas Jefferson to Francois D'Ivernois, 1795. ME 9:297

"Light and liberty go together." --Thomas Jefferson to Tench Coxe, 1795.

"Above all things I hope the education of the common people will be attended to, convinced that on their good sense we may rely with the most security for the preservation of a due degree of liberty." --Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, 1787. Madison Version FE 4:480


Education and Republican Government

"[I have] a conviction that science is important to the preservation of our republican government, and that it is also essential to its protection against foreign power." --Thomas Jefferson to -----, 1821. ME 15:340

"There are two subjects, indeed, which I shall claim a right to further as long as I breathe: the public education, and the sub-division of counties into wards. I consider the continuance of republican government as absolutely hanging on these two hooks." --Thomas Jefferson to Joseph C. Cabell, 1814. ME 14:84

"The value of science to a republican people, the security it gives to liberty by enlightening the minds of its citizens, the protection it affords against foreign power, the virtue it inculcates, the just emulation of the distinction it confers on nations foremost in it; in short, its identification with power, morals, order and happiness (which merits to it premiums of encouragement rather than repressive taxes), are considerations [that should] always [be] present and [bear] with their just weight." --Thomas Jefferson: On the Book Duty, 1821.

"Whenever the people are well-informed, they can be trusted with their own government;... whenever things get so far wrong as to attract their notice, they may be relied on to set them to rights." --Thomas Jefferson to Richard Price, 1789. ME 7:253

"[In a republic, according to Montesquieu in Spirit of the Laws, IV,ch.5,] 'virtue may be defined as the love of the laws and of our country. As such love requires a constant preference of public to private interest, it is the source of all private virtue; for they are nothing more than this very preference itself... Now a government is like everything else: to preserve it we must love it... Everything, therefore, depends on establishing this love in a republic; and to inspire it ought to be the principal business of education; but the surest way of instilling it into children is for parents to set them an example.'" --Thomas Jefferson: copied into his Commonplace Book.

"In the constitution of Spain as proposed by the late Cortes, there was a principle entirely new to me:... that no person born after that day should ever acquire the rights of citizenship until he could read and write. It is impossible sufficiently to estimate the wisdom of this provision. Of all those which have been thought of for securing fidelity in the administration of the government, constant reliance to the principles of the constitution, and progressive amendments with the progressive advances of the human mind or changes in human affairs, it is the most effectual." --Thomas Jefferson to Pierre Samuel Dupont de Nemours, 1816. ME 14:491

"[The] provision [in the new constitution of Spain] which, after a certain epoch, disfranchises every citizen who cannot read and write... is the fruitful germ of the improvement of everything good and the correction of everything imperfect in the present constitution. This will give you an enlightened people and an energetic public opinion which will control and enchain the aristocratic spirit of the government." --Thomas Jefferson to Chevalier de Ouis, 1814. ME 14:130


Government's Responsibility to Educate

"And say, finally, whether peace is best preserved by giving energy to the government or information to the people. This last is the most certain and the most legitimate engine of government. Educate and inform the whole mass of the people. Enable them to see that it is their interest to preserve peace and order, and they will preserve them. And it requires no very high degree of education to convince them of this. They are the only sure reliance for the preservation of our liberty." --Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, 1787. (Forrest version) ME 6:392

"It is an axiom in my mind that our liberty can never be safe but in the hands of the people themselves, and that, too, of the people with a certain degree of instruction. This is the business of the state to effect, and on a general plan." --Thomas Jefferson to George Washington, 1786. ME 19:24


Educate Every Citizen

"A system of general instruction, which shall reach every description of our citizens from the richest to the poorest, as it was the earliest, so will it be the latest of all the public concerns in which I shall permit myself to take an interest." --Thomas Jefferson to Joseph C. Cabell, 1818. FE 10:102

"It is highly interesting to our country, and it is the duty of its functionaries, to provide that every citizen in it should receive an education proportioned to the condition and pursuits of his life." --Thomas Jefferson to Peter Carr, 1814. ME 19:213

"The mass of our citizens may be divided into two classes -- the laboring and the learned. The laboring will need the first grade of education to qualify them for their pursuits and duties; the learned will need it as a foundation for further acquirements." --Thomas Jefferson to Peter Carr, 1814. ME 19:213

"By... [selecting] the youths of genius from among the classes of the poor, we hope to avail the State of those talents which nature has sown as liberally among the poor as the rich, but which perish without use if not sought for and cultivated." --Thomas Jefferson: Notes on Virginia Q.XIV, 1782. ME 2:206

"Instead of an aristocracy of wealth, of more harm and danger than benefit to society, to make an opening for the aristocracy of virtue and talent, which nature has wisely provided for the direction of the interests of society and scattered with equal hand through all its conditions, was deemed essential to a well-ordered republic." --Thomas Jefferson: Autobiography, 1821. MW 1:54

"I do most anxiously wish to see the highest degrees of education given to the higher degrees of genius and to all degrees of it, so much as may enable them to read and understand what is going on in the world and to keep their part of it going on right; for nothing can keep it right but their own vigilant and distrustful superintendence." --Thomas Jefferson to Mann Page, 1795. ME 9:30

source: http://etext.virginia.edu/etcbin/ot2www?...8&textreg=0


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: An interview with Michael Badnarik [Re: JesusChrist]
    #3004721 - 08/14/04 05:16 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

JesusChrist said:
School vouchers give the poor an opportunity for education while giving an option outside the government monopoly. Where the government fails we need to give the free market a chance.




the only private schools I am aware of are controlled by organized religion. Is that better than government? Who do I want to brainwash my children? The government or the church? Doesnt seem like much of a choice to me. At least the government teaches evolution.

Has there ever been a secular private school established? If so, why hasnt it dominated the marketplace with its 'superior capitalist methodology'?

Can you imagine if education were completely under the control of big business? What if Coca-Cola and Marlboro taught your kids' Health class?


--------------------
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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: An interview with Michael Badnarik [Re: Ancalagon]
    #3004728 - 08/14/04 05:19 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Ancalagon said:

Michael is responding here to a question about No Child Left Behind. His answer is specifically with regard to FEDERAL government involvement in education. I would not bet on a Libertarian President(with a supportive congress) doing any more in a first administration than eliminating the DoE and returning the job of public education soley to the states. The more centralized education becomes, the more emphasis seems to be put on teaching to tests(for obvious monetary reasons) as opposed to teaching to learn. I think a great discussion could be had over public vs. private education but for the purposes of this thread, the platform of Michael Badnarik is that the 10th Amendment is applicable in this situation and the states should run their public education systems as they see fit.




So do you think the State of Alabama should be able to teach racism and religious dogma as fact? Because the good ol boys that run the state probably would if it werent for a dependance on Federal funds, and a restriction to only operate under federal standards, which doesnt allow them to do so.


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Anonymous

Re: An interview with Michael Badnarik [Re: DoctorJ]
    #3004740 - 08/14/04 05:22 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

have you ever been to alabama?


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: An interview with Michael Badnarik [Re: ]
    #3004743 - 08/14/04 05:24 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

many, many times

I've seen crosses burning on the sides of the fucking highways there.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: An interview with Michael Badnarik [Re: DoctorJ]
    #3004931 - 08/14/04 06:48 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:

Has there ever been a secular private school established?





http://www.MPH.net. Not that expensive either


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Edited by zappaisgod (08/14/04 06:53 PM)


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: An interview with Michael Badnarik [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3004948 - 08/14/04 06:55 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

It's http://www.mph.net the edit didn't work for the URL


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OfflineTao
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Re: An interview with Michael Badnarik [Re: DoctorJ]
    #3004982 - 08/14/04 07:07 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Has there ever been a secular private school established?




Sure, I went to one.


Quote:

If so, why hasnt it dominated the marketplace with its 'superior capitalist methodology'?




it did, it just had to reject loads of people to keep its small class sizes. same way that harvard and other ivies dominate colleges for the most part.


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Magash's Grain Tek  + Tub-in-Tub Incubator + Magash's PMP + SBP Tek + Dunking = Practically all a newbie grower needs :thumbup:


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: An interview with Michael Badnarik [Re: Tao]
    #3004990 - 08/14/04 07:10 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Where'd you go? I posted mine.


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OfflineTao
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Re: An interview with Michael Badnarik [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3005035 - 08/14/04 07:28 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

sorry, id rather not


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OfflinePhred
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Re: An interview with Michael Badnarik [Re: DoctorJ]
    #3007403 - 08/16/04 01:08 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Nice list of Jefferson quotes showing he recognized the value of an informed populace.

Please provide us with one where he advocated the federal government taxing US citizens in order to fund schools. Thank you.

pinky


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: An interview with Michael Badnarik [Re: ]
    #3007586 - 08/16/04 01:59 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

now you're claiming to have heard libertarians defending it,

You have never heard anyone on this board defending sweatshop labour?

Please  :rolleyes:

when you've actually seen them oppose it on numerous occasions.

Use the search engine and find me an example of a far right libertarian attacking sweatshop labour. Give me an example of a far right libertarian saying Nike should be fined and bankrupt for their abuse of sweatshop labour.

Remember, the bulk of sweatshop labour involves children as they are the easiest to intimidate and you can make more profit from them.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: An interview with Michael Badnarik [Re: silversoul7]
    #3007597 - 08/16/04 02:02 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

One reason why so many European countries are ahead of us in education is not because it's funded by the government, but because they separate the college-bound kids from those who go into apprenticeships.

This certainly isn't the case in the UK.


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Invisiblez@z.com
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Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: An interview with Michael Badnarik [Re: Xlea321]
    #3007620 - 08/16/04 02:09 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
now you're claiming to have heard libertarians defending it,

You have never heard anyone on this board defending sweatshop labour?

Please  :rolleyes:

when you've actually seen them oppose it on numerous occasions.

Use the search engine and find me an example of a far right libertarian attacking sweatshop labour. Give me an example of a far right libertarian saying Nike should be fined and bankrupt for their abuse of sweatshop labour.

Remember, the bulk of sweatshop labour involves children as they are the easiest to intimidate and you can make more profit from them. 



You claim that libertarians on this board support "12 year old girls "right" to work in a sweatshop."

I have seen and made many a post saying that some employment is better than none, but no one is claiming that child labor is ok. Quit trying to be deceptive alex.


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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


Edited by z@z.com (08/16/04 02:10 AM)


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