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OfflineTao
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Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 7,935
Loc: San Diego
Last seen: 5 years, 30 days
Re: An interview with Michael Badnarik [Re: ]
    #3017655 - 08/18/04 12:07 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

60-80 hr weeks vs. 2 hr weeks.---that's another one.


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: An interview with Michael Badnarik [Re: Tao]
    #3019040 - 08/18/04 05:23 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

?Everyone has the right to work, to free choice of
employment, to just and favourable conditions of work. . .Everyone
has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and
well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing,
housing and medical care and necessary social service.? - UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights, 1948.


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Anonymous

Re: An interview with Michael Badnarik [Re: Xlea321]
    #3019568 - 08/18/04 07:19 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

So why isn't it doing so right now throughout the third world?

are you suggesting that the reason the third world is so poor is because they lack powerful unions and minimum wage laws?

more colored paper would lift them out of poverty?

please alex. they are poor because there aren't enough goods and services produced. the reason for this is lack of capital accumulation.

Are you saying we will need to give the governments even more power than they have now? I've never heard a libertarian say that before.

well, we're talking about the third world, where many governments are unable or unwilling to do what is required of them; that is, keep the peace... therefore even a libertarian would suggest that they need to amplify and probably realign their enforcement efforts so that unions may organize, young children aren't used as laborers, etc.

Where are you getting your definition of the free market from? The defintion of a free market is an economic system that operates according to the laws of supply and demand without government interference.

a free market is an environment where people may enter into voluntary exchanges, and only voluntary exchanges. it is not a market free of "government influence" but force. a system in which the government has absolutely nothing to do with the market, and theives run unfettered, is not free. a system where the government enforces contracts and prevents violence or fraud is a free market, and this is the system that you are well aware that libertarians call for.

a situation where young girls are forcibly held to work as prostitutes, young boys are made to work in the cane fields, unionizing efforts are violently suppressed, dumping is rampant, extortion commonplace, and "business" killings frequent is not a free market, and no libertarian has ever called for such an arrangement. the government must prevent the initiation of force and maintain an environment where people may make voluntary exchanges. THAT is a free market.


Edited by mushmaster (08/18/04 08:33 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: An interview with Michael Badnarik [Re: Xlea321]
    #3019600 - 08/18/04 07:29 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

so let's see where we are here...

you claimed to have heard "many" instances of libertarians supporting child labor on this board.

when you were asked to provide an example, you did not, but instead tried to dodge the issue by aparently suggesting that libertarians, by supporting the removal of minimum wage laws and the like, must also support child labor. (correct me if i'm wrong here... was that the argument?)

do you believe that it is possible to support the removal of price controls, excessive licensing regulations, and controls on working hours, without supporting child labor? if not....

why not?

now this thread has gone on for quite a while and you've scarcely made any attempt at all to show the causal relationship between supporting the removal of things like price controls and subsidies, and actually supporting the use of children as factory workers.

i ask again...

do you believe that it is possible to support the removal of price controls, excessive licensing regulations, and controls on working hours, without supporting child labor? if not....

why?


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Invisibleretread
-=HasH=-
Registered: 07/14/04
Posts: 851
Re: An interview with Michael Badnarik [Re: Xlea321]
    #3020240 - 08/18/04 10:03 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
So you don't believe it is a persons "right" to choose to work in a sweatshop if they want to? That certainly isn't the view expressed by the far right libertarians on the board.




Sure, if they so choose, then they can. You keep juxtaposing the words "sweat shop" and "child labor" when in fact they are two different things. Children around where I live, especially those of the Mennonite faith, work harder on their farms than most people will work in their entire lives. They aren't, to loosely quote pinksharkmark, being tied to a sewing machine for 18 hours a day, they are working a job which they receive benefit from. I think that people have asked you to post a link where people said that they do think that children should be working in "sweatshops" and I haven't seen a link yet, so I can't be sure that you aren't mix-n-matching the terms "child labor" and "sweat shop".  If a child in some third world nation can go to work, voluntarily, for a salary that seems meager and sad to us, but can help support her family with it, then thats fine. I think that the limited governmental regulation would be to ensure that the working conditions are safe.  For example, a 10 year old child wouldn't be put to work breaking rocks, or working in an unsafe factory.
Quote:


So why do american corporations employ children and non-unionised labour all around the world?




Employing children isn't necessarily sweat shop labor. Even though you seem to have a different political standpoing from pinksharkmark, and it seems some personal issues as well, I think he is in an excellent position to give information about the state of child labor in third world nations.  From his first-person account, and nothing that you've posted shows different, these children aren't being snapped off of the streets and chained to their sewing machine. They work to provide for their families.  If someone can get labor cheaper somewhere else, I don't see that a true libertarian would institute force to make them not do so.
Quote:


Er..because workers struggled, fought and died for a hundred years to get some rights? Read up on the history of american labour in the 19th century. You'll find it all there - child labour, breaking unions etc.




I think that most American corporations now realize that it's much more efficient to have a workforce that is happy and enjoys their jobs than having a cadre of slaves in their dynamite shops.  With the changing of times, people aren't forced to work in the single steel mill or coal mine in their town.  They can easily drive two towns over, or two hours away, and work in a nice office at a place that does give great benefits and cares about their employee.  A book that I've read that helps me in dealing with my employees (even though I'm sure that they'd tell you I'm a slave driver! :wink: ) is "The Employee Comes First" (or maybe it's called "Putting the customer second").  The basic premise, and one that I wholeheartedly with, is that when you focus on your employees and make the work environment as positive as possible, the effects trickle down.
Quote:


So why do you think american corporations relocate to third world countries and use child labour? 




Because it's much cheaper, of course. I just don't see anything wrong with a voluntary transaction. If these people don't want to work at Plant X, they can start their own company.

The basic premise of libertarianism is that force not be initated against people unless necessary, usually in response to force.  How can you say, or imply, that your views are libertarianistic while at the same time wanting to force people to partake in voluntary agreements the way that you want them to?
Quote:


Check out the definition in any dictionary. That will be fine by me. What is your definition of one?




sweat?shop    ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (swtshp)
n.
A shop or factory in which employees work long hours at low wages under poor conditions.

Most of these terms are somewhat subjective. "long hours" is laughable when I spend more than half of my time working, "low wages" is what every worker that you question will tell you that they are making. however, the poor conditions, thats where the government steps in. If the conditions are safe, then it's the decision of the people to work there or not. If noone is being forced to do anything, it's libertarianism at it's heart.
Quote:


But somehow, by accident, they do?




Show me that they use "sweat shop" labor, rather than "child labor".
Quote:


But not enough repugnancy to say to the subcontractors, "stop employing the kids, give them union rights, spend money giving them safe working conditions, make their hours reasonable, pay them a living wage. We'll foot the bill"?




Er, no. Why would a company do that? If they were saying to the sub contractors "go out, kidnap a gaggle of strong looking lads, and force them to work until their fingers bleed", I'd say it's time for intervention. If they post job openings that are filled with youth acting on a volunteer basis, whats the big deal?
Quote:


That's not what mushmaster has been saying - he says child labour would be banned in a free market.



I thought I rememberd him saying something about having a job when he was 14? "child labor" is such a vast subjective word that it's hard to tell what you mean. Should children not have to work on thei rparents farms? I'd say that they should, thought to a limit of course. should children be forced to work in gulags day in and day out? No. If it involves the word "force", a true libertarian woudl say "no". If it doesn't involve that concept of making an individual or group do something against their will, then I'd say that a libertarian would be for it.


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Anonymous

Re: An interview with Michael Badnarik [Re: retread]
    #3020297 - 08/18/04 10:13 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

however, the poor conditions, thats where the government steps in. If the conditions are safe, then it's the decision of the people to work there or not.

i've got to point out that this isn't entirely true. people may work in dangerous conditions, so long as they are aware of the risks and freely decide to accept them.

some people choose to work as roofers or in construction. some cut timber. some choose to be crab fishermen off the coast of alaska. some work in mines. some work in steel mills.

there will always be dangerous occupations. i've never heard of a libertarian suggesting that the government enforce a law mandating that conditions at all workplaces be made safe. this isn't something that the government can or should do.


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Invisibleretread
-=HasH=-
Registered: 07/14/04
Posts: 851
Re: An interview with Michael Badnarik [Re: ]
    #3020312 - 08/18/04 10:17 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
i've got to point out that this isn't entirely true. people may work in dangerous conditions, so long as they are aware of the risks and freely decide to accept them.




Good point. I think that their should remain some regulation as to where children can and can't work. When I was 12 I was working on my uncles golf course making 2$/hour. Hot hot work, lots of physical labor, but I still wasn't allowed to use certain things.
Quote:


there will always be dangerous occupations. i've never heard of a libertarian suggesting that the government enforce a law mandating that conditions at all workplaces be made safe. this isn't something that the government can or should do.



Do you think that a law requiring, say, inspections of forklifts and adherence to saftey practise with them would be a goodidea?


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Anonymous

Re: An interview with Michael Badnarik [Re: retread]
    #3020382 - 08/18/04 10:29 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Do you think that a law requiring, say, inspections of forklifts and adherence to saftey practise with them would be a goodidea?

what sort of inspections and safety regulations?


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: An interview with Michael Badnarik [Re: ]
    #3021417 - 08/19/04 01:56 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

are you suggesting that the reason the third world is so poor is because they lack powerful unions and minimum wage laws?

No, read it again. I'm saying if corporations can do without child labour and banning unions why arn't they doing it right now?

they are poor because there aren't enough goods and services produced

Are you trying to say they are poor because they don't have enough sweatshops? Please.

therefore even a libertarian would suggest that they need to amplify and probably realign

Try to stick to something that vaguely resembles reality. A government introduces the right to form unions, the corporations shift production to a country that has banned unions. How do you stop this?

a system where the government enforces contracts and prevents violence or fraud is a free market, and this is the system that you are well aware that libertarians call for.

Calling for it is very nice. You can call for eternal peace and love too if you like. Try and give me an example in reality where a government can enforces the right to a union without the corporation simply moving production to another country.

and no libertarian has ever called for such an arrangement

Then you and every far right libertarian are utterly and totally against any sweatshop labour where unions are intimidated? Good. You agree with any campaign to get rid of sweatshop labour throughout the third world where unions are banned?

THAT is a free market.

Well, it's your version of a free market. I'm sure the heads of corporations using sweatshop labour would say they are operating in a free market fashion too.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: An interview with Michael Badnarik [Re: ]
    #3021473 - 08/19/04 02:08 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

so let's see where we are here...

You mean where you are. You are in a very different place to the rest of us.

you claimed to have heard "many" instances of libertarians supporting child labor on this board.

I'll try and explain this slowly once more for the gipper...You are claiming you have never heard an example of anyone on this board defending sweatshop labour in the third world. You claim that when anyone has ever defended sweatshop labour they actually meant only sweatshop labour that is carried out without child labour, with full union rights, full workers rights, with excellent safety conditions and working conditions.

That is your position? Can you tell me a sweatshop where those conditions exist? Otherwise your "point" is utterly ridiculous.

when you were asked to provide an example, you did not, but instead tried to dodge the issue by aparently suggesting that libertarians, by supporting the removal of minimum wage laws and the like, must also support child labor.

Where did I do this? Where have I mentioned the minimum wage? Are you thinking of another thread?

You appear to be saying that in your free market fantasy the "government" will enforce rules against child labour and unions. You have so far dodged all attempts to explain why the corporations wouldn't simply move production to a country where they can make larger profits using child labour and banning unions. Please do so.


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Anonymous

Re: An interview with Michael Badnarik [Re: Xlea321]
    #3022242 - 08/19/04 07:42 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

You are claiming you have never heard an example of anyone on this board defending sweatshop labour in the third world.

i've heard people defend free market wages, even if they are very low. i've never heard of anyone defending child labor.

Where did I do this? Where have I mentioned the minimum wage? Are you thinking of another thread?

no, i'm just trying to figure out what your argument is. it's quite a task. if child labor is a required feature of "sweatshop" labor, (the dictionary doesn't say that it is) then no libertarian has defended sweatshop labor. it's that simple.

You appear to be saying that in your free market fantasy the "government" will enforce rules against child labour and unions.

why is that a fantasy? why can't the government enforce such rules while refraining from enacting price controls, tariffs, and the like?

You have so far dodged all attempts to explain why the corporations wouldn't simply move production to a country where they can make larger profits using child labour and banning unions. Please do so.

please explain how your solution would address this problem. please explain how enforcing not only protection for unions, and prohibition of child labor, but also minimum wage laws and regulations on working hours wouldn't drive capital away even faster.

did you miss my question. i asked it twice because i figured you might. for the third time:

do you believe that it is possible to support the removal of price controls, excessive licensing regulations, and controls on working hours, without supporting child labor? if not....

why?


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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/26/01
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Re: An interview with Michael Badnarik [Re: ]
    #3022670 - 08/19/04 11:48 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

it's quite a task.

The lets simplify it. You come to power in your libertarian paradise. You tell the corporations you are banning all child labour, introducing union rights, working rights, decent working conditions and safety procedures. The corporations reply that you are making things "uncompetitive" and that you can go fuck yourself. They are moving production to a more "competitive" country where they can use child labour and dispense with unions.

What do you do?

please explain how enforcing not only protection for unions, and prohibition of child labor, but also minimum wage laws and regulations on working hours wouldn't drive capital away even faster.

Eh? Banning child labour is going to drive "capital" away to a country where they can exploit children. That is what I have been telling you for the last 5 pages. Your first argument in this thread was that capital will cope perfectly well without child labour and with powerful unions. Have you abandoned that idea?

why is that a fantasy?

Because greater profits can be made using child labour and banning unions than without.

why can't the government enforce such rules while refraining from enacting price controls, tariffs, and the like?

Because the corporations will simply shift production to another country.


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OfflineAncalagon
AgnosticLibertarian

Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
Last seen: 11 years, 4 months
Re: An interview with Michael Badnarik [Re: Xlea321]
    #3022752 - 08/19/04 12:12 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Alex, why is there more American investment in Canada(with minimum wage laws, child protection, strong unions, etc.) than in ALL of Sub-Saharan Africa(poverty stricken area with a multitude of child labor and a lack of union strength)? There are other factors at work in the economic world than wages. Output per person in developing nations is often a small fraction of what it is in more developed western nations. If there were NO draw factors for a corporation to maintain manufacturing centers in the United States and other 1st world nations, clearly our manufacturing sector would be non-existant.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: An interview with Michael Badnarik [Re: Ancalagon]
    #3022757 - 08/19/04 12:14 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

There are other factors at work in the economic world than wages.

I agree with you.

If there were NO draw factors for a corporation to maintain manufacturing centers in the United States and other 1st world nations, clearly our manufacturing sector would be non-existant.

Not sure what this has to do with the topic of corporations using non-unionised sweatshop labour throughout the third world.


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Anonymous

Re: An interview with Michael Badnarik [Re: Xlea321]
    #3022769 - 08/19/04 12:18 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

alex, we're not talking about how to solve the problem of capital flight when worker's rights start to be enforced. (how would you solve that problem?)

i'm asking you why you apparently feel that libertarians support child labor. could you please explain what led you to believe that libertarians support child labor?


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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/26/01
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Re: An interview with Michael Badnarik [Re: ]
    #3022794 - 08/19/04 12:27 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

alex, we're not talking about how to solve the problem of capital flight when worker's rights start to be enforced

We were until I demolished your theory that you could introduce controls on "free market" capitalism.

i'm asking you why you apparently feel that libertarians support child labor.

Because the kind of free market capitalism you worship makes such heavy use of it throughout the third world? Or are you talking about a version of free market capitalism that only exists in your mind?


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Anonymous

Re: An interview with Michael Badnarik [Re: Xlea321]
    #3022803 - 08/19/04 12:29 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

We were until I demolished your theory that you could introduce controls on "free market" capitalism.

:rotfl:

Because the kind of free market capitalism you worship makes such heavy use of it throughout the third world?

huh? free market capitalism is not what they have in the third world.

Or are you talking about a version of free market capitalism that only exists in your mind? If you are, you'll have to explain a little more about what's going on in your mind.

does the exact version of socialism you propose exist anywhere in the world?


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Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: An interview with Michael Badnarik [Re: ]
    #3022807 - 08/19/04 12:30 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
We were until I demolished your theory that you could introduce controls on "free market" capitalism.

:rotfl:



My thoughts exactly.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: An interview with Michael Badnarik [Re: ]
    #3022847 - 08/19/04 12:37 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Come on mush, quit chuckling and give us the answer to how you introduce workers rights in free market capitalism.

huh? free market capitalism is not what they have in the third world.

Really? So all the talk we here about free markets is just hot air?

does the exact version of socialism you propose exist anywhere in the world?

Come on, we're not talking about the "exact version", we're talking about stopping kids being brutalised and intimidated in sweatshops. If your free market can't even begin to address that right now then it belongs in the toilet.


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: An interview with Michael Badnarik [Re: silversoul7]
    #3022857 - 08/19/04 12:39 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

My thoughts exactly.

We'd all love an on-topic thought from you silver. Anything rather than following me around the threads hoping to get a pissy remark in  :thumbup:


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