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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: An interview with Michael Badnarik [Re: z@z.com]
    #3007636 - 08/16/04 02:13 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Quit trying to be deceptive alex.



I don't think he tries. It just comes naturally.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: An interview with Michael Badnarik [Re: z@z.com]
    #3008295 - 08/16/04 09:15 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

z@z.com said:
I have seen and made many a post saying that some employment is better than none, but no one is claiming that child labor is ok.



Notice that he refuses to provide a link or a quote... typical.

Quote:

Quit trying to be deceptive alex.



You might as well ask a skunk to smell sweet.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: An interview with Michael Badnarik [Re: Phred]
    #3008513 - 08/16/04 12:18 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

pinksharkmark said:
Nice list of Jefferson quotes showing he recognized the value of an informed populace.

Please provide us with one where he advocated the federal government taxing US citizens in order to fund schools. Thank you.

pinky




those quotes show more than his recognition of the value of a well-informed populace, and you know it.

you're asking me to find a quote by jefferson which is worded the exact way you want it to be. I dont think they talked like that back then. Why dont you read the quotes I posted again. All of them. Jefferson may have been cautious and non-commital with his words, but thats politics. Try and read between the lines.


--------------------
Deep in the heart of Central Texas
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SM tool
Native Dallas brick-chopper...


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Anonymous

Re: An interview with Michael Badnarik [Re: Xlea321]
    #3008527 - 08/16/04 12:25 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

You have never heard anyone on this board defending sweatshop labour?

not for 12 year olds. have you?

Use the search engine and find me an example of a far right libertarian attacking sweatshop labour.

you claimed to have heard libertarians defending not sweatshop labor, but sweatshop labor for 12 year olds. would you like me to find examples of libertarians actually opposing child labor? can you find any examples of libertarians supporting child labor (as you claim to have heard)?

nice try at weaseling out of this one. the "12 year old girls" part is there as a part of the public record for all to see. this is what you claimed:

"I've heard an awful lot of far right "libertarians" on the board insisting it is a 12 year old girls "right" to work in a sweatshop."

note the part about "12 year old girls". note that no libertarian has actually ever defended that on this board. note that unless you're delusional, you've never heard them defend it, and unless you're delusional, you knew you had never heard them defend it when you made that claim.

so what is it alex? lying or delusional?


Edited by mushmaster (08/16/04 12:32 PM)


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OfflinePhred
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Re: An interview with Michael Badnarik [Re: DoctorJ]
    #3008781 - 08/16/04 01:46 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

DoctorJ writes:

those quotes show more than his recognition of the value of a well-informed populace, and you know it.

Actually, no they don't. Please choose one which shows more than that.

you're asking me to find a quote by jefferson which is worded the exact way you want it to be.

No, I'm not. I'm trying to get you to provide one which shows he believed one of the functions of the US federal government was to fund schools, or even to find one where he advocates the government set standards by which others must educate children . Your original statement was:

Quote:

Even the quintessential libertarian hero, Thomas Jefferson, recognized the need for public education.



This is quite simply untrue. He recognized the value of an educated public, true, but that is not the same thing as saying he felt "public education" was needed.

Jefferson may have been cautious and non-commital with his words, but thats politics. Try and read between the lines.

LOL! If there was one thing I haven't heard Jefferson accused of before, it's being non-commital with his words. You can rest assured that if he had favored having the federal government in charge of educating children it would not have been necessary to "read between the lines" in order to determine this.

pinky


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: An interview with Michael Badnarik [Re: DoctorJ]
    #3008797 - 08/16/04 01:53 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

did you even read the quotes? specifically, these:

Quote:

"There are two subjects, indeed, which I shall claim a right to further as long as I breathe: the public education, and the sub-division of counties into wards. I consider the continuance of republican government as absolutely hanging on these two hooks." --Thomas Jefferson to Joseph C. Cabell, 1814. ME 14:84





Quote:

"And say, finally, whether peace is best preserved by giving energy to the government or information to the people. This last is the most certain and the most legitimate engine of government. Educate and inform the whole mass of the people.




Quote:

"It is an axiom in my mind that our liberty can never be safe but in the hands of the people themselves, and that, too, of the people with a certain degree of instruction. This is the business of the state to effect, and on a general plan. "




Quote:

"A system of general instruction, which shall reach every description of our citizens from the richest to the poorest, as it was the earliest, so will it be the latest of all the public concerns in which I shall permit myself to take an interest." --Thomas Jefferson to Joseph C. Cabell, 1818. FE 10:102





--------------------
Deep in the heart of Central Texas
lurks a Doktor
SM tool
Native Dallas brick-chopper...


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OfflinePhred
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Re: An interview with Michael Badnarik [Re: DoctorJ]
    #3008820 - 08/16/04 01:59 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Yes, I read them.

I ask again, where does he advocate the US federal government funding public schools? Where does he advocate the US federal government regulating the content of what is taught to US children?

pinky


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: An interview with Michael Badnarik [Re: Phred]
    #3008874 - 08/16/04 02:18 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

all I said was that he recognized the need for public education. I said nothing about his endorsement of federal funding or curricular standards, although I do think that these things follow naturally from what he said, at least according to my interpretation.

I'm not going to argue this with you anymore, but I will say this:

the writings of Jefferson are similar to the writings of Moses, in that both bodies of work can be interpreted in a myriad of ways.


--------------------
Deep in the heart of Central Texas
lurks a Doktor
SM tool
Native Dallas brick-chopper...


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OfflinePhred
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Re: An interview with Michael Badnarik [Re: DoctorJ]
    #3008929 - 08/16/04 02:35 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

DoctorJ writes:

all I said was that he recognized the need for public education.

Context, Doc, context. You ask me to "read between the lines," yet try to evade the context in which your statement (and the even more dubious one following it) were made.

Your reference to Jefferson was part and parcel of an attempted refutation of Badnarik's position on the federal government's involvement in education. It was a textbook example of the "appeal to authority" logical fallacy, and a poor one at that, since Jefferson definitely did not acquiesce "to this socialist contention in his otherwise libertarian philosophy."

pinky


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: An interview with Michael Badnarik [Re: Phred]
    #3009004 - 08/16/04 02:59 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

I wasnt intending to refute badnarik's contentions with the jefferson reference, I was merely pointing out how libertarian ideals have become more rigid and inflexible in the past 200 years. Libertarianism has become less of a science and more of a dogma.

we all know Jefferson professed very libertarian political philosophies. But there were instances in which he compromised these philosophies in order to accomodate situational factors. The Louisiana Purchase is a good example of this. If Jefferson had stuck to his principles, he wouldnt have made the Louisiana Purchase without the consent of congress. But that would have been the wrong decision. One of the things I admire most about Jefferson is his willingness to break his own principles if the situation called for it. My reference to him in my post was merely intended to point out the need for situational ethics, as opposed to rigid moral principles that dont always work in the real world.


--------------------
Deep in the heart of Central Texas
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SM tool
Native Dallas brick-chopper...


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: An interview with Michael Badnarik [Re: ]
    #3009442 - 08/16/04 04:47 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

not for 12 year olds. have you?

What are you talking about? Child labour is a defining feature of third world sweatshop labour. How can you defend sweatshop labour and condemn it's defining feature at the same time? That's insanity.

you claimed to have heard libertarians defending not sweatshop labor, but sweatshop labor for 12 year olds

Once again, child labour is a defining feature of third world sweatshop labour. Always has been. Are you trying to say the far right libertarians have been defending some idea of sweatshop labour that only exists in their mind? Can we try and deal with reality?

note the part about "12 year old girls". note that no libertarian has actually ever defended that on this board.

Try and understand. I know it's difficult for you but here it is again. As simple as I can make it. A major part of third world sweatshop labour involves child labour. By defending sweatshop labour you are by definition defending child labour. If you wish to talk about your own bizarre personal definition of sweatshop labour that doesn't involve child labour and exists only in your own mind you will have to clearly define what it is. I'm afraid I cannot read your "mind".

The sweatshop labour througout the third world that the far right libertarians have defended repeatedly on the board involves child labour. That's reality. Only a liar would say otherwise.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: An interview with Michael Badnarik [Re: silversoul7]
    #3009458 - 08/16/04 04:51 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

I don't think he tries. It just comes naturally.

What happened to you silver? You were so nice for those two weeks after you had that mushroom trip that you claimed "enlightened" you. I was really impressed. Now you're back making pissy comments to complete strangers on the internet. What went wrong? Didn't the enlightenment thing work out?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Anonymous

Re: An interview with Michael Badnarik [Re: Xlea321]
    #3009481 - 08/16/04 04:55 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

delusional it is.

:shrug:


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: An interview with Michael Badnarik [Re: ]
    #3009506 - 08/16/04 05:01 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

You accept sweatshop labour throughout the third world involves child labour? So what were you defending when you were defending sweatshop labour? Some version that only exists in your mind?

I think that's more obviously delusional mush. Sorry if I couldn't work out that by "sweatshop labour" you actually meant "A version of sweatshop labour that exists nowhere but my mind". I'll try and bear that in mind the next time you mention it.  :thumbup:


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OfflinePhred
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Re: An interview with Michael Badnarik [Re: Xlea321]
    #3009542 - 08/16/04 05:06 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Alex123 writes:

Child labour is a defining feature of third world sweatshop labour.

Actually, no it is not. I've lived in a Third World country for the last seventeen years, Alex. There are "sweatshops" here, but there ain't any twelve year olds working in them.

But perhaps it's time for you to lay out for us just what your personal definition of "sweatshop" is. I can't help but note (yet again) that although you have been asked for this definition repeatedly in the past, you have refused to provide it.

Clearly, from the emphatic nature of this latest post of yours, your position is that a factory cannot be defined as a "sweatshop" unless it employs pre-adolescent children. I will therefore categorically state that as a Laissez-faire Capitalist, I oppose any such "Alex123sweatshopsTM" (sorry -- can't find the key which generates the nifty little "trademark" character).

It should be noted, however, that the Dominican Republic has no Alex123sweatshopsTM, therefore my personal knowledge of labor conditions in Third World countries is confined only to the non-sweatshop variety.

pinky


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: An interview with Michael Badnarik [Re: Phred]
    #3009567 - 08/16/04 05:09 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Actually, no it is not. I've lived in a Third World country for the last seventeen years, Alex. There are "sweatshops" here, but there ain't any twelve year olds working in them.

Dominican Republic:

NATIONAL STATISTICS

* For the year 2000, the ILO projects that there will be 122,000 economically active children, 20,000 girls and 102,000 boys between the ages of 10-14, representing 13.22% of this age group. (ILO, International Labour Office - Bureau of Statistics, Economically Active Population 1950-2010, STAT Working Paper, ILO 1997)

* 97,661 children between 10-14 years, and 325,503 between 15-19 years are economically active. (ILO, Yearbook of Labour Statistics, 1999)

* According to the World Bank, 13% of children between the ages of 7-14 do not attend class because they work outside the home or stay home doing house chores. Approximately 11% work and go to school at the same time, which means that for one-fourth of the population of minors it is impossible to continue the education they need to become more skilled. (Inter-American Commission on Human Rights, Country Report: Dominican Republic, 1999)

* The ILO estimated in August 1997 that 169,000 children between the ages of 7-14 held jobs. (US Dept of State, Human Rights Report, 1998)

* In 1995, there were 137,000 economically active children between the ages of 10-14, representing 16.06% of this age group. Of these, 20,000 were girls and 117,000 were boys. (ILO, International Labour Office - Bureau of Statistics, Economically Active Population 1950-2010, STAT Working Paper, ILO 1997)


* According to the National Population Census of 1993, the economically active population between 10-14 years numbered 89,966, which represents 10.73% of this age group. Out of these, 33.5% were involved in agriculture, community, social and personal services, and 21.6% in the commercial sector, hotels and restaurants. (ILO-IPEC, El trabajo infantil en America Latina - CD-ROM, August 1999)

GENERAL NOTES AND OBSERVATIONS

* Tens of thousands of children begin working before the age of 14. Child labour takes place primarily in the informal economy, agriculture, small businesses, clandestine factories, and prostitution. (US Dept of State, Country Reports on Human Rights Practices - 1999, 25 February 2000)

* The county's nine Export Processing Zones are significant employers of underage workers, particularly young girls. (EI, EI Barometer on Human and Trade Union Rights in the Education Sector, 1998)

The Lawyers' Committee for Human Rights stated in 1991 that the Dominican government actively encourages forced labour by children on sugar plantations

http://www.globalmarch.org/worstformsreport/world/dominican-republic.html


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OfflinePhred
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Re: An interview with Michael Badnarik [Re: Xlea321]
    #3009625 - 08/16/04 05:22 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Read what I wrote, Alex.

There is a difference between "economically active" and working your mythical fourteen hour shifts six days a week in a factory. I was "economically active" from age twelve onwards myself.

There are no foreign-owned factories employing twelve year olds in this country. If (and this is a big if) there are any Dominican-owned factories employing twelve year olds, they would probably be relatives of the owners and/or higher-ups given a joe-job (such as running out for food and coffee etc. or maybe sweeping out the parking lot) out of nepotism.

I will admit I have very occasionally seen the son of the owner of our local grocery store bagging groceries in the afternoons and on weekends, and he might be as young as twelve years old. Are grocery stores now also to be considered "sweatshops"?

pinky


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Anonymous

Re: An interview with Michael Badnarik [Re: Xlea321]
    #3009633 - 08/16/04 05:23 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

You accept sweatshop labour throughout the third world involves child labour? So what were you defending when you defending sweatshop labour? Some version that only exists in your mind?

try to follow me here...

"sweatshop labor" in the third world admittedly contains elements such as child labor, violent union-breaking, and a lack of government regulation of wages and hours.

these elements are borne of the same cause, that being a general lack of government enforcement of any standards, due or undue, in the market.

these elements share the same cause; they are not dependent conditions. child labor and violent strike breaking are not caused by low wages and long working hours, and it is therefore not inconsistant to advocate free-market wages and hours while at the same time opposing child labor or forceful anti-union activities.

please construct an argument depicting the causal link between a lack of a minimum wage and child labor. i'd love to see it.


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Invisiblez@z.com
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Re: An interview with Michael Badnarik [Re: Xlea321]
    #3010538 - 08/16/04 09:45 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

I started working at the age of 10. Me and a friend from down the street would do yardwork for the neighbors. I suppose that made me "economically active". I also got my first real job at 14. I wonder how many of those "economically active" children were simply doing the same thing that I did?

EDIT: I just saw pink's post so I guess mine is a little redundant.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


Edited by z@z.com (08/16/04 09:46 PM)


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: An interview with Michael Badnarik [Re: Xlea321]
    #3010614 - 08/16/04 10:01 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
I don't think he tries. It just comes naturally.

What happened to you silver? You were so nice for those two weeks after you had that mushroom trip that you claimed "enlightened" you. I was really impressed. Now you're back making pissy comments to complete strangers on the internet. What went wrong? Didn't the enlightenment thing work out?



I'm not falling for that one again, Alex. I'm simply making an observation of your posting style. And if I were you, I wouldn't be one to talk about pissy comments.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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