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OfflineJesusChrist
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Badnarik and Libertarians "Sickos"?
    #3114008 - 09/09/04 04:06 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

This comes from my daily email from the Wall Street Journal "Best of the Web Today"

Quote:

Best of the Web Today - September 8, 2004
By JAMES TARANTO

A Party Against America
This Saturday is Sept. 11, the third anniversary of, well, Sept. 11. A political organization holding a meeting that day urges its members to show up "wearing some clothing article colored black to mourn the deaths of the thousands of people who have died as a result of U.S. government policies."

That's right, this outfit thinks the anniversary of an attack on America is an appropriate day for a Blame America First-fest. Ah well, we've come to expect such things from moonbat Muslims and commie peaceniks. There's no point in getting upset.

Only this group of ideological extremists consists neither of Islamists nor commies. It's the Libertarian Party and its "presidential candidate," Michael Badnarik. They are, of course, perfectly entitled to exercise their right to freedom of speech. But really, what a bunch of sickos.

I have to say I agree this is in bad taste. Perhaps the lack of attention Mr. Badnarik gets contributed to him doing something extreme. I don't think that 9-11 is a fit day to do something like this. That is not a way to get into the hearts of the mainstream. And that is the polite way to put it.


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Tastes just like chicken


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Badnarik and Libertarians "Sickos"? [Re: JesusChrist]
    #3114036 - 09/09/04 04:09 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I'm liking Badnarik more and more every day.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineJesusChrist
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Re: Badnarik and Libertarians "Sickos"? [Re: silversoul7]
    #3114122 - 09/09/04 04:31 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

That was yesterday's email. I am cleaning out my box. Here is the followup from the WSJ Best of the Web today:
Quote:


The Libertarians Strike Back!

Predictably enough, yesterday's item on the Libertarian Party's tasteless anti-U.S. rally set for Sept. 11 brought quite a few responses, such as this one from Tom Howe, a self-described "Libertarian in NC":

In the spirit of "spell my name right," I thank you for leading Wednesday's rant with the story of Libertarians and their "presidential candidate." And more thanks for not disputing that U.S. policies are responsible for the deaths of thousands.

Oh, by the way, you can't credibly complain about Reuters' misuse of scare quotes, any more, since you use them with a person's official and legal status. Bummer!

Sure we can. We fault Reuters, a "news" service, for using scare quotes to editorialize. Editorializing is what we get paid to do.

Reader Randal Morgan defends the party:

The Libertarian Party is the only party that bases its platform strictly on the Constitution of the United States. Pretty sicko, right? And all the rest of you, from "conservatives" through "socialists," all believe that you can tax some people to give benefits to other people, in more or less greater degree of violation to that Constitution. The Democrats have become the Big Socialists, and you Republican "conservatives" have become the Little Socialists. All of you are to the "left" of the Constitution, and to whatever degree you are to the left of the Constitution, to that degree you are un-American. That's right. I'll say it again: You are un-American!

How's that for "sicko"?

The problem here is that we were not criticizing the Libertarian Party for its views on domestic policy. For our taste, both the Democrats and the Republicans are too favorably disposed to big government. It would be nice if there were a credible party that stood for smaller government. But a party that uses Sept. 11 as an occasion to bash America cannot be taken seriously. Reader Jeff Wilson makes the point:

Libertarian candidates generally provide the best match for my political goals, but I will not be voting Libertarian this year. Between the party's head-in-the-sand foreign policy (or absence of policy), and the readiness of the words "Legalize pot!" to spring from the lips of any Libertarian who finds himself in front of a camera--as if it were an attractive way to get people to listen to more of what he wants to say--I am afraid the party has gone up in smoke. It's not the environmental Angry Left, but there is a certain tinge of "green" to it.

I am more or less an Objectivist, philosophically, and a political independent. President Bush can alleviate a lot of the reservations I have about him by being more aggressive with the U.S. military in the war on terror, and by initiating tax reform that moves us toward a consumption-based tax system, as in the "Fair Tax" plan. I would count those as two signal accomplishments for which I was proud to vote. I think the chances are good for each.

Add one vote for Bush in California.

Stephen Gordon responds to us on the Libertarian campaign blog, and he is indistinguishable from the Angry Left:

I love America while I simultaneously despise the acts of those who govern us.

To be sure, the terrorists themselves are the ones to blame. They are clearly the ones who "pulled the trigger"--but our government has some share in the blame. If one stands around a hornet nest, he or she might expect to be stung once or twice. But if one beats the hornet nest with a baseball bat, just how many stings might he or she expect?

Our interventionist foreign policy is that bat--and we are still swinging it wildly in the middle east, where we just took our 1000th sting yesterday.

Later, Gordon refers to "the disconnect between our tyrannical government and the American people." Of course, if you're free to call your government "tyrannical," it's a safe bet that it isn't.

The Libertarian Party might once have had some appealing ideas about shrinking government--and for all we know, it still does. But in the middle of a war, the party is indulging in lurid fantasies about America's "tyrannical" government while explaining away the murderous actions of real tyrants. We can all be grateful that the party is too much of a joke to do any real harm.




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Tastes just like chicken


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OfflineJesusChrist
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Re: Badnarik and Libertarians "Sickos"? [Re: JesusChrist]
    #3114146 - 09/09/04 04:39 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

In my first post, the very end part that said this was mine and not included in the WSJ:

"I have to say I agree this is in bad taste. Perhaps the lack of attention Mr. Badnarik gets contributed to him doing something extreme. I don't think that 9-11 is a fit day to do something like this. That is not a way to get into the hearts of the mainstream. And that is the polite way to put it. "

I fucked up the quote thing and made it look like the email said that. Sorry.


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Tastes just like chicken


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OfflineAncalagon
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Re: Badnarik and Libertarians "Sickos"? [Re: JesusChrist]
    #3114155 - 09/09/04 04:42 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Response to Wall Street Journal Idiocy by Stephen Gordon of the Badnarik Campaign:

Quote:

This Saturday is Sept. 11, the third anniversary of, well, Sept. 11. A political organization holding a meeting that day urges its members to show up "wearing some clothing article colored black to mourn the deaths of the thousands of people who have died as a result of U.S. government policies."

That's right, this outfit thinks the anniversary of an attack on America is an appropriate day for a Blame America First-fest. Ah well, we've come to expect such things from moonbat Muslims and commie peaceniks. There's no point in getting upset.

Only this group of ideological extremists consists neither of Islamists nor commies. It's the Libertarian Party and its "presidential candidate," Michael Badnarik. They are, of course, perfectly entitled to exercise their right to freedom of speech. But really, what a bunch of sickos.





Should Mr. Taranto choose to read what I wrote, he might note that I blamed our elected officials and government authorities for creating the environment where such attacks might be more likely to occur. Americans, as a whole, were never blamed. I will make this very clear for him: I love America while I simultaneously despise the acts of those who govern us.

To be sure, the terrorists themselves are the ones to blame. They are clearly the ones who "pulled the trigger" - but our government has some share in the blame. If one stands around a hornet nest, he or she might expect to be stung once or twice. But if one beats the hornet nest with a baseball bat, just how many stings might he or she expect?

Our interventionist foreign policy is that bat - and we are still swinging it wildly in the middle east, where we just took our 1000th sting yesterday.

I received an e-mail from one of Taranto's comrades. The writer, identified as Jeremy Brown, provides:
Quote:

On the anniversary of attacks killing 3,000+ Americans by cave-dwelling goat-[expletive which starts with the letter 'f' deleted] who want to savagely beat the rest of the world into Burqa-wearing submission, Badnarik wants to focus on deaths at American hands??? Aren't there 364 other days to do this?




Americans are not to blame for 9/11. I know of no one in the Libertarian Party suggesting this to be the case. However, our government - which clearly does not concern itself with representing its constituency, shares this blame.

Some folks understand the disconnect between our tyrannical government and the American people. Jim Lesczynski, who refuses to be subjected to our government, writes:
Quote:

-I agree that if the US had not been meddling in the mid-east for the past 40 some years, the US most likely would not be their terrorist's target.

-I agree with Steve and I am glad that the Badnarik Campaign has the guts to say it like it is. 1. when the US supports and installs dictaorship after dictatorship over decades the US has naturally made enimies. These people have long memories. US activities haven't slowed down or ceased either. While the terrorist who killed people on 9/11 should be punished, and I agree with going into Afganistan to fight back, the US needs to understand *why* we are targets. The US is not justified in policing the world, neither is the UN or anyone else.

-Thanks Stephen for the direct manner in which you addressed this issue.

-Yes, Stephen, I made a $799.11 donation today, bringing me to 1999.11



Justice clearly needs to be administered on the Al Qaeda operatives involved in 9/11 attacks. Additionally, I love Americans, and work very hard to protect their civil liberties.

But we also have got to be brave enough to face reality - that our interventionist policies fostered the environment which made the 9/11 attacks more likely to occur.

They first try to shut us up with the creation of "free speech zones", now they call us names like "America hater" - but it is up to us to stand bold against such unsupported and vile accusations. We are calling for an end to an evil regime, so don't be surprised when the regime resorts to such tactics to ensure its survival.


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?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Badnarik and Libertarians "Sickos"? [Re: Ancalagon]
    #3114227 - 09/09/04 05:01 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

:thumbup:


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Badnarik and Libertarians "Sickos"? [Re: JesusChrist]
    #3114328 - 09/09/04 05:19 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

JAMES TARANTO seems like a complete fuck nut.


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America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineAncalagon
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Re: Badnarik and Libertarians "Sickos"? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3114368 - 09/09/04 05:26 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Innvertigo said:
JAMES TARANTO seems like a complete fuck nut.



Couldn't agree more.

"Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger."

-- Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials


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?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Badnarik and Libertarians "Sickos"? [Re: JesusChrist]
    #3114449 - 09/09/04 05:43 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I have to agree with Taranto on this one.

It was politically an incredibly stupid (not to mention insensitive) stunt. While I agree with the underlying principles of the Libertarian Party (which is why I personally would still vote Badnarik if I were an American), their strategy of getting the message across is extremely inept -- more so this year than ever.

Badnarik certainly lost some votes with this move. That's unfortunate (I mean that sincerely -- no sarcasm).

pinky


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OfflineAncalagon
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Re: Badnarik and Libertarians "Sickos"? [Re: Phred]
    #3114495 - 09/09/04 05:54 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Taranto is not criticizing the political ineptness of the move. Rather, he is attempting(and failing to) portray the Libertarian Party as one that 'blames America first.' As should be clear to anyone with any shred of reason, the Libertarian Party has not at all blamed America for the September 11th attacks, but rather has lamented that the military adventurism of the American Government has stirred up an immense amount of animosity towards the United States which created an atmosphere conducive for attacks like 9-11 to occur.


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?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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OfflineJesusChrist
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Re: Badnarik and Libertarians "Sickos"? [Re: Ancalagon]
    #3115026 - 09/09/04 07:48 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I think you can make that point without doing a stunt on 9-11. And that is just what it is, a stunt or a gimmick intended to draw a reaction. 9-11 is sacred ground. People will be mourning the fallen, and Mr. Badnarik will indeed look like he is blaming America. I like Libertarians. I feel very close to being one. This is no way to grow the party or win the battle of ideas. I have been talking up libertarians with my buddies, and now I have to deal with this. I totally reject it.

On the real issue, I do believe we need a new foriegn policy. I think we should cut off aid to virtually every single nation so as not to play favorites. I think we should open up our market to all as a shining example of freedom to the world. Those are great ideas. Dressing up in black on 9-11 and making Uncle Sam out a butcher is not.

Non-intervention policies wouldn't have defeated Hitler. They wouldn't have rebuilt Europe. They wouldn't have contained Communism, and they wouldn't have won the Cold War. Not every answer lies with freedom and the market. The freedoms that we do have were paid for with blood by the barrel.


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Tastes just like chicken


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: Badnarik and Libertarians "Sickos"? [Re: JesusChrist]
    #3115241 - 09/09/04 08:32 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

JesusChrist said:
Non-intervention policies wouldn't have defeated Hitler.



Non-interventionist policies would have resulted in different outcomes from WWI, thereby changing the dynamics which led to the rise of Hitler. Our interventionist policies have been explicitly cited by OBL and the dude who was convicted as the leader in the first WTC attack as a reason that they target us.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OfflineTao
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Re: Badnarik and Libertarians "Sickos"? [Re: Evolving]
    #3115298 - 09/09/04 08:40 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Non-interventionist policies would have resulted in different outcomes from WWI, thereby changing the dynamics which led to the rise of Hitler.




thats a good point. :thumbup:

Out of curiosity, what do you think about Hitler's annexation of Sudetenland?


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: Badnarik and Libertarians "Sickos"? [Re: Tao]
    #3115369 - 09/09/04 08:52 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Hmmm, wasn't that area given to Czechoslovakia after World War I? This is the kind of rubbing the salt in the wounds that helped to gain popular support for Hitler later on (I think) and increased nationalistic impulses.

** Edit ** I don't know what the popular sentiment was among the people of the Sudetenland, but as a general rule I am against large states.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


Edited by Evolving (09/09/04 08:54 PM)


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OfflineAncalagon
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Re: Badnarik and Libertarians "Sickos"? [Re: JesusChrist]
    #3118673 - 09/10/04 03:20 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

The battle between James Taranto of the Wall Street Journal and me continues. In today's column, Mr. Taranto continues to prove that he just doesn't get it. It now seems necessary to go though his responses point-by-point in the hope of enlightening him.

Taranto: "Predictably enough, yesterday's item on the Libertarian Party's tasteless anti-U.S. rally set for Sept. 11 brought quite a few responses..."

Gordon: To begin, the correct entity involved is the Badnarik/Campagna 2004 campaign, not the Libertarian Party. Second of all, there is no rally scheduled for September 11, but a regular Badnarik2004 Meetup. If Mr. Taranto is not familiar with Meetups, I suggest that he visit Meetup.com to learn more.

Taranto: "But a party that uses Sept. 11 as an occasion to bash America cannot be taken seriously."

Gordon: I have, and will continue to criticize the U.S. government. However, I am not bashing, nor have I bashed the American population. Those being bashed have last names like Bush and Kerry - not to mention the several hundred congress-critters scurrying about D.C.

Taranto: "Reader Jeff Wilson makes the point: Libertarian candidates generally provide the best match for my political goals, but I will not be voting Libertarian this year. Between the party's head-in-the-sand foreign policy (or absence of policy), and the readiness of the words "Legalize pot!" to spring from the lips of any Libertarian who finds himself in front of a camera..."

Gordon: The concept of non-interventionism is really quite simple. Keep our noses out of the business of other people. We are not the policeman to the world. Jefferson may have said it best with, "Peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations - entangling alliances with none."

And on the marijuana line, 61% of Americans oppose arresting and jailing nonviolent marijuana smokers, according to Zogby. It is clear that Jeff Wilson does not get it, either. But America does.

Taranto: "Stephen Gordon responds to us on the Libertarian campaign blog, and he is indistinguishable from the Angry Left:"

Gordon: To be clear, I am angry. As a veteran of over a decade in the Army, nothing angers me more than to see young men and women needlessly coming back in flag-draped coffins.

I am a bit perplexed about how I might be identified with the left, however. Is it my history of defeating Republican tax hikes, or my criticism of Bush as being a traitor to the Second Amendment? Or perhaps it is because I am critical of Republicans for being hypocrites.

Taranto: "Later, Gordon refers to 'the disconnect between our tyrannical government and the American people.' Of course, if you're free to call your government "tyrannical," it's a safe bet that it isn't."

Gordon: Webster's defines tyranny as such:

n. 1. The government or authority of a tyrant; a country governed by an absolute ruler; hence, arbitrary or despotic exercise of power; exercise of power over subjects and others with a rigor not authorized by law or justice, or not requisite for the purposes of government.
"Sir," would he [Seneca] say, "an emperor mote need Be virtuous and hate tyranny." - Chaucer.
2. Cruel government or discipline; as, the tyranny of a schoolmaster.
3. Severity; rigor; inclemency.
The tyranny of the open night's too rough For nature to endure. - Shak.

When we consider (just to name a few) the Patriot Act, the plight of prisoners at Guantanamo Bay, the unconstitutional war in Iraq, illegal search and seizure practices, the infringement of our right to keep and bear arms, dead Americans as a result of the denial of their right to use the medications they need to survive, unconstitutional use of executive orders, the attempt to deny people the right to marry whom they choose, and torture at Abu Ghraib - it is astounding to me how anyone might not understand the tyranny imposed on us.

Our right to freedom of speech decreases on a daily basis - just ask Howard Stern. Not only is Bush surrounded by "Free Speech Zones", they are now implemented on college campuses across this country. The bi-partisan Commission on Presidential Debates excludes the voice of its competition - despite the recent court decision.

Taranto: "But in the middle of a war, the party is indulging in lurid fantasies about America's 'tyrannical' government while explaining away the murderous actions of real tyrants. We can all be grateful that the party is too much of a joke to do any real harm."

Gordon: To which "real tyrant" do you refer? Osama bin Laden clearly needs to feel the swift arm of justice - but he is not the ruler of any nation, so it is unlikey it is him to which you refer. Saddam Hussein was indeed a tyrant - but he did not crash planes into our cities.

With George Bush in office, over 1,000 Americans have died in a land far from home - while our civil rights are quickly eroding away. In the view of most, these are the "murderous actions" of a "real tyrant."

Considering the closeness of the Bush-Kerry race, the fact that Nader has not really picked up significant traction or reasonable ballot access stats, and the growing momentum of the Badnarik race, I expect the final "joke" to which Taranto refers to be on Election Day - when libertarians will be the ones who determine who will be the next President of the United States.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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