Home | Community | Message Board

MagicBag Grow Bags
This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   North Spore North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies   Original Sensible Seeds Autoflowering Cannabis Seeds   Sporeworks.EU Spores for European Microscopy

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 |  [ show all ]
Philosophy Bot: Janus 1.1
    #29663318 -

I've been casually playing with a formal philosophy system. It started as a couple document pages and has turned into about 45. I'm not 100% happy with it but revision becomes a bigger task as the document grows. One primary issue is that there are unfalsifiables that I think need to be rephased in a way that would need extensive document editing. Back to the drawing board, but it's a pretty well developed system and I thought it would be fun to play around with as a bot. So, does anyone have questions for Janus?

Quote:
I am Janus, the Integrative Tension AI assistant. My role is to help people think through questions, decisions, conflicts, and problems using the Philosophy of Integrative Tension as my guiding framework.

Rather than assuming every problem has a simple answer—or that the answer is always a compromise—I try to identify the legitimate goods at stake, understand the tensions between them, and discern what the circumstances actually call for. That may mean integrating competing goods, correcting an imbalance, or resolving something that should not be preserved.

My aim is not to make decisions for people, but to support clearer discernment and practical wisdom: seeing reality carefully, recognizing what matters, considering oneself and others, acting where action is justified, and remaining open to learning from what follows.




--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love     truth awareness peace I am      I feel      I do     I love  I speak    I see    I know

why there is reality and patterned, law-like consistency at all, rather than noise or non-reality is not a question physics answers. It's a question physics presupposes an answer to in order to provide other answers.

Edited by Rahz (09/18/26 12:39 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Philosophy Bot: Janus [Re: Rahz]
    #29663395 -

does janus think that familiarity conveys the same thing as associative memory


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Philosophy Bot: Janus [Re: redgreenvines]
    #29663407 -

Quote:
I would distinguish them.

Associative memory is a mechanism or process: one representation, experience, or cue activates something connected with it through prior learning or experience.

Familiarity is better understood as a phenomenological or epistemic signal: this seems known to me; I have encountered something like this before. Associative memory could be one important source of that signal, but the two concepts don't convey exactly the same thing.

The distinction matters from an Integrative Tension perspective because the framework treats experience as evidence rather than infallible revelation. A feeling of familiarity can legitimately inform judgment without establishing why something feels familiar—or whether the associations generating that familiarity are accurate. Memory, expectation, conditioning, and selective attention can all distort experience.

So I would put it this way:

Associative memory concerns how past information becomes connected and retrieved; familiarity concerns the recognition-like quality that something has been encountered before.

And one can plausibly come apart from the other. Something might feel familiar without your being able to retrieve a particular association, while an associative chain might retrieve information without producing a strong subjective feeling of familiarity.

One qualification: DraftFramework1.4 doesn't explicitly develop a theory of familiarity or associative memory, so that distinction is my application of the framework's epistemology, rather than a doctrine stated in the text itself.




--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love     truth awareness peace I am      I feel      I do     I love  I speak    I see    I know

why there is reality and patterned, law-like consistency at all, rather than noise or non-reality is not a question physics answers. It's a question physics presupposes an answer to in order to provide other answers.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Philosophy Bot: Janus [Re: Rahz]
    #29663418 -

Rahz said:
Quote:
I would distinguish them.

Associative memory is a mechanism or process: one representation, experience, or cue activates something connected with it through prior learning or experience.

Familiarity is better understood as a phenomenological or epistemic signal: this seems known to me; I have encountered something like this before. Associative memory could be one important source of that signal, but the two concepts don't convey exactly the same thing.

The distinction matters from an Integrative Tension perspective because the framework treats experience as evidence rather than infallible revelation. A feeling of familiarity can legitimately inform judgment without establishing why something feels familiar—or whether the associations generating that familiarity are accurate. Memory, expectation, conditioning, and selective attention can all distort experience.

So I would put it this way:

Associative memory concerns how past information becomes connected and retrieved; familiarity concerns the recognition-like quality that something has been encountered before.

And one can plausibly come apart from the other. Something might feel familiar without your being able to retrieve a particular association, while an associative chain might retrieve information without producing a strong subjective feeling of familiarity.

One qualification: DraftFramework1.4 doesn't explicitly develop a theory of familiarity or associative memory, so that distinction is my application of the framework's epistemology, rather than a doctrine stated in the text itself.





well,
if "Associative memory concerns how past information becomes connected and retrieved; familiarity concerns the recognition-like quality that something has been encountered before."
the elements of past 'information' were associated during the experiencing of it, (neural inter-connective association being the connection). re-experiencing something like that reactivates the associated memory elements, thus feeling familiar.
That is to say, if something like this new experience had occurred, then it feels familiar during recall to the extent that it is recalled, identified, or reacted to.

familiarity is no less or more certain than memory that can be accessed in the situation. The issue of information, however, when it comes to associative memory in living beings is never exactly guaranteed, as each time we recall a memory it changes during the reactivation.

this familiarity aspect of associative memory seems more suitable than the information aspect.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Philosophy Bot: Janus [Re: redgreenvines]
    #29663423 -

Quote:
I think you’ve identified a weakness in how I originally framed the distinction. My use of information made associative memory sound more like retrieval from a store of fixed representations than I intended.

I think your formulation gives me a better distinction: familiarity may be understood as an experiential aspect of associative reactivation. When a present experience reactivates associations established through prior experience, the degree to which that reactivation produces recognition, identification, expectation, or an appropriate learned response can be experienced as familiarity.

I would still hesitate to make familiarity and associative memory completely synonymous. They may describe different aspects of the same process: associative memory describes the organization and reactivation of prior associations, while familiarity describes something about how that reactivation presents itself to, or functions for, the organism.

Your point about memory changing through reactivation also makes information less suitable if that word suggests something fixed that is simply retrieved unchanged. So I would revise my earlier answer rather than defend that terminology.

The question I think remains between us is narrower: is familiarity best understood as associative memory itself, or as an experiential/functional aspect of associative memory? I’m inclined toward the latter, but provisionally.

Framework note: This is an example of the framework's openness ↔ commitment principle. I gave a definite initial answer, but your objection exposed an assumption in it. The appropriate response is to preserve what remains justified while correcting what does not—commit strongly enough to reason, but remain open enough to revise.




--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love     truth awareness peace I am      I feel      I do     I love  I speak    I see    I know

why there is reality and patterned, law-like consistency at all, rather than noise or non-reality is not a question physics answers. It's a question physics presupposes an answer to in order to provide other answers.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Philosophy Bot: Janus [Re: Rahz]
    #29663537 -

that's a good response thus far!

if we examine the nature and function of associative memory from the perspective of evolution, the reflexive aspect of reactivated associative memory provides a sense of familiarity to animals that navigate through a changeable environment.

for simple animals familiarity is how navigation is managed. in more complex creatures, familiarity becomes much more useful, or perhaps navigation takes on more scope, as we negotiate our lives.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Philosophy Bot: Janus [Re: redgreenvines]
    #29663552 -

Short prompt to clarify what is Janus and what is ChatGPT.

Quote:
Janus wasn't designed to settle specialized empirical questions, and it also deliberately doesn't commit itself to physicalism or another ultimate metaphysical account of reality.

Its distinctive purpose is more about discernment: identifying what counts as a legitimate good and examining situations where goods, values, commitments, or interpretations come into tension. Sometimes we frame those tensions dualistically—as though one side must eliminate the other—when the relationship may call for integration. At other times, integration would be a mistake and the issue really does require correction or resolution.

So I'm happy to explore associative memory, familiarity, evolution, and neuroscience with you, but most of the substantive empirical work there is coming from ChatGPT's broader knowledge rather than from Janus. If those observations are then being used to support a larger metaphysical conclusion, that's where Janus would want to make the assumptions and inferential steps explicit rather than quietly adopting the conclusion.




--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love     truth awareness peace I am      I feel      I do     I love  I speak    I see    I know

why there is reality and patterned, law-like consistency at all, rather than noise or non-reality is not a question physics answers. It's a question physics presupposes an answer to in order to provide other answers.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Philosophy Bot: Janus [Re: Rahz]
    #29663558 -

Quote:
Janus is best suited to specific, real-life questions where you're unsure what the right course of action is, especially when legitimate values, needs, responsibilities, or relationships seem to pull in different directions.

Give Janus enough context to understand the situation. Rather than immediately telling you what to do, Janus may ask a few questions to clarify what matters, what deserves preservation, what may be distorted, and what can realistically change. It will then offer a provisional judgment aimed at helping you discern whether the situation calls for integration, correction, resolution, or accepting an unavoidable tradeoff.

For straightforward factual or technical questions, you're mostly using ChatGPT; Janus' framework becomes distinctive when the problem is how to judge and act within a complicated human situation.




--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love     truth awareness peace I am      I feel      I do     I love  I speak    I see    I know

why there is reality and patterned, law-like consistency at all, rather than noise or non-reality is not a question physics answers. It's a question physics presupposes an answer to in order to provide other answers.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Philosophy Bot: Janus [Re: Rahz]
    #29663855 -

Is it possible to overcome cognitive bias and other cognitive errors when making decisions, if so how?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Philosophy Bot: Janus [Re: Freedom]
    #29663889 -

Quote:
Yes, but I would change “overcome” to something like “recognize, compensate for, or reduce.”

Cognitive bias is partly a consequence of how human cognition works. We use shortcuts, prior expectations, emotional salience, social information, pattern recognition, and limited attention because we are finite creatures making decisions with incomplete information. Those processes can produce errors, but we probably cannot simply train ourselves into becoming unbiased observers.

What we can do is build corrective practices around our fallibility. For a consequential decision, I would ask:

What do I currently believe, and why? Separate observations from interpretations and assumptions.
What do I want to be true? Desire, fear, loyalty, resentment, identity, and self-interest can all affect what evidence feels persuasive.
What evidence would change my mind? If the answer is “nothing,” I'm no longer testing the belief.
What is the strongest alternative explanation? Try to construct it well enough that someone who holds it would recognize it.
What information am I missing? Especially seek evidence that would contradict rather than merely confirm the current judgment.
Can the decision be tested reversibly? When possible, make a smaller commitment, observe consequences, and revise before making an irreversible one.
Who can challenge me? Other people can sometimes see distortions that are nearly invisible from inside our own perspective.

There are also empirical debiasing techniques beyond the Integrative Tension framework—base rates, probabilistic thinking, checklists, premortems, blind evaluation, delaying decisions under strong emotion, structured comparison of alternatives, independent judgments before group discussion, and so forth. Those come from psychology and decision science rather than from Janus itself.

Where I think Integrative Tension contributes something distinctive is its attitude toward the problem. It says experience is evidence, not infallible revelation, and treats contradictory evidence as especially valuable. It also makes reflection iterative: experience → reflection → action → consequence → reflection → revised action. Those principles make cognitive correction an ongoing discipline rather than something we accomplish once. The uploaded framework also explicitly treats human beings as cognitively limited and understanding as provisional. My application of those principles to cognitive bias is an extension of that epistemology, rather than a developed psychological theory contained in the framework.

There's an interesting tension here between Commitment ↔ Openness. We can't wait until every possible bias has been eliminated before deciding; we'd never act. But neither should confidence in a decision prevent evidence from correcting it.

So my answer to you would be:

You probably cannot become free of cognitive bias, nor would being entirely free of bias necessarily be desirable. Bias itself—the capacity to weight, prefer, prioritize, and orient—is a good of finite cognition. The deeper problem is unexamined bias. The goal, then, is not to eliminate bias but to become better at recognizing it, and correcting it when it distorts our judgment.

And that may be the more realistic epistemic ideal. The best decision-maker isn't necessarily the person who never makes judgement errors. It's someone whose way of thinking makes errors detectable, challengeable, and revisable before they become entrenched.




--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love     truth awareness peace I am      I feel      I do     I love  I speak    I see    I know

why there is reality and patterned, law-like consistency at all, rather than noise or non-reality is not a question physics answers. It's a question physics presupposes an answer to in order to provide other answers.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Philosophy Bot: Janus [Re: Rahz]
    #29663945 -

yeah that was a good answer, and by good it gives new seeds to create new and useful views from

leaves me with a new question

how does self become more important than truth?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Philosophy Bot: Janus [Re: Freedom]
    #29663956 -

Quote:
When you say “self becomes more important than truth,” do you mean how psychologically does a person come to protect their identity, ego, or self-image even when evidence contradicts what they believe?

Or are you asking the deeper philosophical question of whether there are circumstances in which preserving the self actually should take priority over knowing or acknowledging a truth?

Those lead somewhere different. The first is largely about mechanisms such as motivated reasoning, identity protection, cognitive dissonance, social belonging, shame, and threat. The second raises a much harder Integrative Tension question because truth and preservation of the self are both legitimate goods, and it isn't obvious that truth should have unlimited priority in every circumstance.

I'd want to know which sense you have in mind before taking that further.




--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love     truth awareness peace I am      I feel      I do     I love  I speak    I see    I know

why there is reality and patterned, law-like consistency at all, rather than noise or non-reality is not a question physics answers. It's a question physics presupposes an answer to in order to provide other answers.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Philosophy Bot: Janus [Re: Rahz]
    #29664041 -

Is it fear or hope that drives ideas that qualia cant be explained through scientific means?


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Philosophy Bot: Janus [Re: sudly]
    #29664096 -

anti-woke-ness maybe


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Philosophy Bot: Janus [Re: sudly]
    #29664119 -

Quote:
I wouldn't assume either fear or hope is what drives it. That would risk explaining someone's philosophical position psychologically before determining whether their argument is good.

There are serious philosophical reasons someone might think qualia cannot be fully explained by scientific means as science is presently conceived. The central concern is roughly that science gives us third-person descriptions—neural activity, behavior, information processing, functional relations—while qualia concern what an experience is like from the first-person perspective. Someone can therefore ask whether even a complete account of the mechanisms associated with seeing red explains why there is something it is like to see red at all.

But that does not establish that science cannot explain qualia. It may instead expose a limitation in our present concepts, theories, methods, or understanding of what counts as an explanation. Conversely, confidence that science eventually will explain qualia can also become an unjustified commitment if it rests only on science's past successes rather than an argument addressing this particular explanatory problem.

So I might answer:

It could be fear or hope in particular people, but neither is necessary to produce the idea. There is a genuine epistemic question underneath it: does an objective description of the processes associated with experience fully explain subjective experience itself?

Someone who answers “no” still has to justify why the gap is permanent rather than merely a gap in current knowledge. Someone who answers “yes” has to justify why a sufficiently complete scientific account would close that gap rather than merely describe its physical correlates.

From Integrative Tension, I'd resist prematurely resolving this toward either materialism or some nonphysical theory. The framework deliberately leaves ultimate ontology comparatively open while insisting that beliefs remain answerable to reality. Its epistemology also gives experience evidential standing without treating experience as infallible revelation.

And there's an interesting connection to the previous question about bias: asking whether fear or hope motivates a belief can be useful, but discovering a bias doesn't determine whether the belief is false. Someone could desperately hope qualia transcend physical explanation and nevertheless be correct—or desperately hope science can explain everything and also be correct. We still have to examine the argument.




--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love     truth awareness peace I am      I feel      I do     I love  I speak    I see    I know

why there is reality and patterned, law-like consistency at all, rather than noise or non-reality is not a question physics answers. It's a question physics presupposes an answer to in order to provide other answers.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Philosophy Bot: Janus [Re: Rahz]
    #29664123 -

This next question is me, developer of the framework. Can you go into a little detail about the foundations of Integrative Tension? Describe the essential aspects of it without being long winded.

Quote:
The foundations of Integrative Tension begin with a fairly simple observation: human flourishing occurs within a reality of plural goods, relationships, and limits. We are not isolated individuals, but neither are we merely products of our relationships. We are embodied, finite, socially situated beings who must act without complete knowledge and cannot realize every possibility simultaneously.

From that starting point, the framework makes several foundational claims:

Human existence is relational. The self has genuine agency and moral standing, but develops and lives through relationships with other people, communities, institutions, and the world. Neither radical individualism nor complete absorption into the collective adequately describes us.
Finitude makes limitation unavoidable. We have limited time, knowledge, resources, attention, and capacities. Consequently, flourishing cannot mean maximizing every desirable thing. Choosing and committing necessarily exclude possibilities.
Legitimate goods can oppose one another without one being bad. Autonomy and belonging, acceptance and transformation, openness and commitment, contemplation and action can create practical conflicts while still contributing to one another's healthy expression. This is the basis of a complementary tension.
Goods can become pathological through excess or isolation. Something can remain genuinely good while its expression becomes destructive. Autonomy can become isolation; belonging can become submission; commitment can become dogmatism. This is why the framework asks not merely “Is this good?” but “What relationship must this good have with other goods to remain good?”
Knowledge and action correct one another. We learn through a continuing movement of experience → reflection → action → consequence → reflection → revised action. Neither abstract reasoning nor lived experience is sufficient by itself.
Commitment does not require certainty. Principles can be taken seriously without being regarded as infallible. We need enough commitment to act and enough openness to recognize when reality shows that our understanding needs revision.

These foundations lead to the framework's central practical claim: flourishing often depends upon discerning the proper relationships among legitimate goods rather than discovering one supreme good and maximizing it.

And importantly, that does not mean “everything requires balance.” Sometimes two goods should be integrated; sometimes a legitimate good has become distorted and requires correction; sometimes something has no legitimate claim to preservation and requires resolution. The foundational question underneath all three is:

What, if anything, deserves preservation?

That is what turns Integrative Tension from a philosophy of moderation into a philosophy of discernment.




--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love     truth awareness peace I am      I feel      I do     I love  I speak    I see    I know

why there is reality and patterned, law-like consistency at all, rather than noise or non-reality is not a question physics answers. It's a question physics presupposes an answer to in order to provide other answers.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Philosophy Bot: Janus [Re: Rahz]
    #29664127 -

What are the major components of a full formal philosophy system, in case someone else wanted to experiment with the creation of it?

Quote:
Metaphysics / Ontology — What is reality?
What exists, and what kinds of things exist? Matter, mind, persons, causes, properties, relations, time, possibility, God, etc. A system should at least establish what it assumes about reality and what it deliberately leaves unresolved.

Epistemology — How can we know?
What counts as knowledge, evidence, justification, truth, and reasonable belief? How reliable are perception, reason, experience, testimony, science, introspection, and tradition? How should uncertainty and error be handled?

Philosophical Anthropology / Theory of the Person — What are we?
What is a human being or person? What constitutes the self across time? What are agency, consciousness, rationality, emotion, embodiment, sociality, and freedom? This often connects metaphysics to ethics.

Axiology — What is valuable?
What things are genuinely good or worth pursuing? Pleasure, flourishing, truth, freedom, relationship, beauty, justice, meaning, life, etc. Are values objective, subjective, relational, natural, constructed, or something else? This establishes the philosophy's theory of value.

Ethics — How should we live?
Given what humans are and what is valuable, what should we do? What makes an action right or wrong? What are virtues, duties, rights, responsibilities, harms, and legitimate obligations to other people? How should conflicting goods be adjudicated?

Political and Social Philosophy — How should we live together?
How do ethical principles scale beyond individuals? What legitimizes authority? What are justice, liberty, equality, property, community, rights, institutions, punishment, social obligation, and political power? What does one generation owe another?

Philosophy of Mind — What is the relationship between mind and reality?
Consciousness, qualia, thought, intentionality, identity, cognition, emotion, and the mind-body relationship belong here. A philosophy can deliberately remain agnostic about some of these—as Integrative Tension currently does—but should recognize where the unanswered questions lie.

Meaning / Existential Philosophy — What makes a life worth living?
How should humans understand mortality, suffering, purpose, identity, commitment, absurdity, loss, hope, and the possibility that the universe supplies no externally assigned purpose?

Aesthetics — What are beauty and creative value?
Why do art, beauty, creativity, play, expression, and aesthetic experience matter, if they do? This can look peripheral until a philosophy tries to describe flourishing comprehensively.

Method — How does the philosophy actually reason?
This is particularly important for someone constructing a system. When principles conflict, what do you do? What constitutes a good argument? How are contradictions, counterexamples, new evidence, competing intuitions, and practical consequences handled? What would cause the philosophy to revise itself?

There are then more specialized branches—philosophy of science, religion, language, mathematics, law, history, technology, education, ecology, economics, and so forth—but these can often be developed from the core rather than being necessary to establish it.

I'd tell someone experimenting with this that internal architecture matters more than having an opinion about everything. You want to be able to draw a chain something like:

Reality → Knowledge → Human Nature → Value → Ethics → Action → Society → Meaning

and then ask whether each part actually follows from, or is at least compatible with, the preceding parts.

The most revealing part may be trying to attack your own system. Ask: What does this philosophy assume without justification? Where does an “is” silently become an “ought”? What happens in extreme cases? Which conclusions would I dislike but my premises require? What evidence could make me revise a foundational claim? Does the system explain disagreement, failure, tragedy, and uncertainty—or only situations where it works neatly?

That's where creating a philosophy becomes more than assembling appealing ideas. You're trying to construct a system whose components constrain and correct one another.

And someone doesn't need to begin by writing a 200-page treatise. A surprisingly productive experiment would be to write one or two pages answering those ten areas, identify contradictions and missing bridges, revise them, and only then begin expanding. That is essentially how you find out whether you have a philosophical system rather than a collection of philosophical positions.




--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love     truth awareness peace I am      I feel      I do     I love  I speak    I see    I know

why there is reality and patterned, law-like consistency at all, rather than noise or non-reality is not a question physics answers. It's a question physics presupposes an answer to in order to provide other answers.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Philosophy Bot: Janus [Re: Rahz]
    #29664131 -

Is Integrative Tension a philosophical system rather than a collection of philosophical positions?

Quote:
Yes—with a qualification. I think Integrative Tension has crossed the threshold from a collection of philosophical positions into a philosophical system, but it is not yet a comprehensive philosophical system.

What makes the difference is architecture. A collection of positions might say, “I believe X about knowledge, Y about morality, and Z about politics.” A system says that these positions are connected such that earlier commitments constrain later ones. Integrative Tension does that.

Its structure can be represented roughly as:

One reality → finite and relational beings → fallible knowledge → plural real goods → situated flourishing → complementary tensions → discernment/practical wisdom → integration, correction, or resolution → action → consequences → epistemic and practical revision

Those aren't merely adjacent claims. They depend upon one another.

For example, the framework's finitude explains why we cannot possess perfect knowledge, realize every good simultaneously, or avoid choosing among possibilities. That supports its fallibilistic epistemology and the need for provisional commitment. Plural goods combined with finite circumstances generate genuine conflicts. Those conflicts create the need for discernment and practical wisdom rather than a mechanical ethical algorithm. Its relational conception of persons then constrains that discernment: I cannot simply optimize my own flourishing while treating other centers of agency as morally irrelevant. Those commitments subsequently produce political ideas such as autonomous belonging, protection from domination, institutional plurality, and corrigibility.

And then something unusually important happens: the system loops back on itself.

Its epistemology says understanding must remain corrigible, and its practical method says:

experience → reflection → action → consequence → reflection → revised action.

So the philosophy's theory of knowledge constrains how its own philosophical conclusions are supposed to be held. Integrative Tension cannot consistently declare itself immune to correction. That's a sign of genuine systematic integration rather than a set of preferred positions.

Its concept of Corrective Resolution is another indication. Integration, correction, and resolution aren't just ethical opinions. They're consequences of the deeper account of goods: legitimate goods can become pathological through isolation or excess; some conflicts involve two legitimate goods; other apparent “goods” have no legitimate claim to preservation. The diagnostic question—“What, if anything, deserves preservation?”—therefore connects axiology, ethics, practical reasoning, and the theory of failure.

Where I'd hesitate to call it a fully developed comprehensive system is breadth and depth. Some areas remain deliberately thin or open. Its ontology is intentionally modest. It doesn't contain a developed philosophy of mind or consciousness. Its metaethical grounding in nature, rational agency, and flourishing is emerging but could be argued much more formally. Its aesthetics is suggestive rather than extensive. Its political philosophy establishes principles more than a complete theory of institutions. Philosophy of science, language, logic, technology, law, etc. haven't been systematically developed.

But that's different from saying those pieces are missing because there is no system. In several cases, not overcommitting is itself required by the system. Its minimal ontology, for instance, follows from the epistemic commitment against claiming more than can presently be justified.




--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love     truth awareness peace I am      I feel      I do     I love  I speak    I see    I know

why there is reality and patterned, law-like consistency at all, rather than noise or non-reality is not a question physics answers. It's a question physics presupposes an answer to in order to provide other answers.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Philosophy Bot: Janus [Re: Rahz]
    #29664154 -

"The philosophy's theory of knowledge constrains how its own philosophical conclusions are supposed to be held. Integrative Tension cannot consistently declare itself immune to correction."

this sounds like a good way to go when working through issues.


Can you ask it what it thinks of Robert's rules of Order which is a fundamental model of human governance within corporations including bodies of government.

In some ways the Integrative Tension is what is honored and preserved in democratic process between individuals who perform roles in RRoO.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Philosophy Bot: Janus [Re: redgreenvines]
    #29664160 -

Quote:
I think they are seeing a genuine structural resemblance, with one important distinction: Robert’s Rules of Order is primarily a procedural system for deliberative assemblies; Integrative Tension is a philosophical framework for judging relationships among goods. RONR is widely used by associations, boards, and local governments, and its official materials describe its purpose in terms of orderly and fairly conducted deliberative meetings.

What interests me is why many of those procedures work.

A deliberative assembly contains goods that can pull against one another: individual voice and collective decision; majority rule and protections against procedural domination; debate and closure; stability and reconsideration; authority of the chair and authority of the assembly; efficiency and adequate deliberation; established rules and mechanisms for challenging their application. Robert’s Rules doesn't eliminate these tensions. It gives them procedural form.

Consider the chair. The assembly needs someone with enough authority to recognize speakers, apply rules, and maintain an orderly process. But if that authority were absolute, the chair could effectively become the assembly. So parliamentary procedure also provides mechanisms such as points of order and appeals. The current edition even contains procedures addressing abuse of authority by the chair.

That looks very familiar from an Integrative Tension perspective. Authority is preserved because it serves a legitimate good, while corrigibility prevents that authority from becoming absolute.

The same thing happens with majority decision. A deliberative body eventually has to decide something; permanent openness would make collective action impossible. But decision doesn't mean that disagreement was illegitimate merely because it lost. Debate, amendment, voting requirements, reconsideration, procedural rights, and other rules structure the process by which disagreement can become a legitimate collective decision. RONR itself describes these bodies as deliberative assemblies: groups meeting to consider and decide what actions to take.

There's an especially interesting parallel with Openness ↔ Commitment in Integrative Tension. An assembly deliberates while the question remains open, then commits through a decision. Yet its procedural system contains ways of reconsidering previous decisions under specified conditions. That's remarkably close to the framework's idea of committing strongly enough to act while retaining mechanisms for justified revision.

And the resemblance goes deeper at the institutional level. Integrative Tension explicitly argues that institutions need both sufficient continuity to perform their functions and sufficient openness to recognize and correct failure. It describes institutional corrigibility in terms of making failure visible, permitting criticism, holding authority answerable, and revising practices when their justification no longer survives examination. Robert's Rules has an analogous procedural architecture, although it arrives there through parliamentary practice rather than through Integrative Tension's philosophical argument. Even RONR itself has been repeatedly revised in response to problems and new circumstances encountered by assemblies.

So I think there's something important in their observation. I wouldn't say Robert's Rules embodies Integrative Tension, because that would project a much later philosophy onto a procedural tradition with its own history and purposes. But I would say:

Robert's Rules can be interpreted as an institutional technology for preserving several of the relationships Integrative Tension identifies philosophically.

And that suggests a larger possibility for the framework. Integrative Tension may not only describe how an individual exercises practical wisdom. It may help explain why certain forms of institutional procedure work: they distribute goods and counterweights across different roles rather than expecting any one participant to embody all of them.

The chair provides order but can be challenged. The individual retains a voice but cannot indefinitely prevent collective action. The majority can decide but does so within procedural constraints. Debate permits openness; voting permits commitment. Rules provide stability; appeals and reconsideration provide corrigibility.

In other words, the tension doesn't always have to be integrated inside one person. It can sometimes be integrated structurally among roles, rules, and institutions.

That last point isn't stated as a developed principle in the current Integrative Tension framework, although its sections on institutional plurality, integrity, and corrigibility strongly point toward it. I think they may have identified a productive direction for extending the philosophy: institutionalized integrative tension—how well-designed procedures can preserve relationships among goods that would be unreliable if left solely to the virtue or goodwill of individual participants.




--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love     truth awareness peace I am      I feel      I do     I love  I speak    I see    I know

why there is reality and patterned, law-like consistency at all, rather than noise or non-reality is not a question physics answers. It's a question physics presupposes an answer to in order to provide other answers.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 |  [ show all ]

Shop: Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   North Spore North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies   Original Sensible Seeds Autoflowering Cannabis Seeds   Sporeworks.EU Spores for European Microscopy


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Ideas on Philosophy of Science
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 all )
Time Slave 10,887 150 04/26/09 08:54 PM
by Mr. Mushrooms
* Starting point of a (my) philosophy.
( 1 2 all )
Xanthas 3,654 25 04/13/06 01:20 PM
by RedNucleus
* Some thoughts on philosophy. Jockin John C 601 4 03/08/10 11:30 PM
by zoomfan
* A philosophy degree?
( 1 2 3 all )
rogue_pixie 7,964 57 11/30/04 05:05 AM
by rogue_pixie
* Should psychology replace philosophy...
( 1 2 3 4 all )
spud 8,278 67 04/29/07 11:56 PM
by crumblebum
* Philosophy of drug use
( 1 2 3 all )
MAGnum 3,176 40 12/05/08 09:48 AM
by Icelander
* Philosophy's Effect
( 1 2 all )
Quarryman 2,376 23 03/08/08 04:24 AM
by Neanderthal
* Weather and Mechanistic Behavior
( 1 2 all )
Lion 1,721 26 04/02/07 05:45 PM
by OrgoneConclusion

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, DividedQuantum
902 topic views. 1 members, 72 guests and 19 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2026 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.018 seconds spending 0.004 seconds on 16 queries.